Now I am really confused

[Ravager]

You have to ask Buck to give you reasons, should you want them, but remember that dealings with moderators and bannings have rarely been publicly announced before so I don't know what response you will get.

Well, I could always ask, I wasn't provided any real description for demotion other than not being distanced enough from the members.
Funny, I thought part of moderatorship was listening to the membership, rather than ignoring them...well, being demoted by Buck for listening to member concerns would really contradict that. *shrugs*

[Darzog]

Why they were demoted is (almost) not the issue. The powers that be could very easily say that it was discussed and they gave Rav/LA their reasons and that they will not be discussing it further. Whether you believe the reasons given or not is a different matter, ultimately this is Buck's site and if he decided (on his own or with help) that Rav and LA shouldn't be mods, then so be it.

My problem with the issue that prompted this thread is that CM posted a concern he had about the forum and instead of commenting on it or giving a reason why it was not appropriate, the thread was deleted almost immediately. A second popped up asking why the first was deleted and it too was deleted almost immediately. This is what concerns me. And no one that could have deleted the initial thread has bothered to comment on this thread.

I'm not worried about conspiracy theories, I just think this situation is being handled very poorly and with little regard for the common members of SYM.

[Denethorn]

Well, I could always ask, I wasn't provided any real description for demotion other than not being distanced enough from the members.

Distance... unfortunately I think that correlates more with posts per day more than anything else

Edit: as Darzog said, past experiance dictates that a PM should atleast have been dispatched to CM with regards to the thread closure - and explanation as to why.

[Hill-Shatar]

You have to ask Buck to give you reasons, should you want them, but remember that dealings with moderators and bannings have rarely been publicly announced before so I don't know what response you will get.

This is not another Gruntboy incident, nor a faceless advertiser. Fact is, two moderators are demoted. Due to the membership only knowing so much about the reasons behind this, mostly from Fas' post and apparently from Luis' demotion PM, we know that these circumstances are suspicious.

Whether or not this was expected, it's damaging the board enough to bring out CM long enough to express his feelings on it, and I was certainly surprised when I made my weekly run of GameBanshee to find two respected members of this community demoted.

Dottie, I feel this should be dealt with in a short and concise manner, allowing us all to know what happened, and for future posters to know what has happened as well. Whether or not this is responded too, if Buck tells us it will be posted in this thread, or in SYM.

I'd prefer this was headed off, before it exploded from pressure.

EDIT: It appears that Buck has addressed this himself in the sticky at the top of the forum.

[CM]

Sadly both of you mods are incorrect. Grunts banning was officially announced by Buck. Sailor Saturns was also made public. Every single banning that has been made has been made publically. Feel free to do a search on the matter.

Mr.Sir I was a mod before you joined this website. I am also one of the few of the oldest posters on this forum. Though you may not be aware of this during the current system, posters have always had the right to question moderators in their action this includes Buck Satan. When Grunt was banned the issues was debated for a long time.

Every banning to date has had a discussion. That is how this forum functions, well functioned until the moderator forum was created and those in that forum started dictating to others not allowing for a discussion.

Questioning the actions of moderators is a system of checks and balances that is lacking these days. Or do moderators think their actions should not be questioned?

[BuckGB]

Grunts banning was officially announced by Buck. Sailor Saturns was also made public. Every single banning that has been made has been made publically. Feel free to do a search on the matter.

Mr.Sir I was a mod before you joined this website. I am also one of the few of the oldest posters on this forum. Though you may not be aware of this during the current system, posters have always had the right to question moderators in their action this includes Buck Satan. When Grunt was banned the issues was debated for a long time.

Every banning to date has had a discussion. That is how this forum functions, well functioned until the moderator forum was created and those in that forum started dictating to others not allowing for a discussion.

Questioning the actions of moderators is a system of checks and balances that is lacking these days. Or do moderators think their actions should not be questioned?

Please don't jump to conclusions. I've always tried to make an announcement for changes that affect the membership, and this situation is no different. The moderator change just happened earlier today and I've finally found the time to write something up about the situation here in SYM. Like I said in this latest announcement, though, there are variables at play here that are not publically known and that is not going to change.

For the record, I don't like that my private messages are being discussed in public and I don't appreciate being called a hypocrite and being accused of having double standards (which is why your first thread was deleted, which should come as no surprise). If there were better alternatives available to me, I certainly would have taken them.

[CM]

When I informed you that i was resigning as a mod, i explicitly stated that I was leaving for the reasons that moderators were abusing their powers. I refered to moderators openly flaming members and moderators locking threads they were participating in and then editting their comments afterwards to make themselves look better. You commented you understood my reasons and frustrations but had many real life concerns. The PM conversation was limited at that.

I would request that when you have the time, explain to us why moderators that have been abusing their powers - all three times you knew of the abuse and commented on it in the mod forums - are allowed to stay but moderators who have not broken any rules or abused their powers are demoted?

I would certainly be interested in the reasons for such a lapse in moral judgement.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was posted in another thread. As you are online could you answer that question. Mind you the above abuses were made to know (through screenshots and other evidence) to you not by me but by other members of SYM.

[ch85us2001]

I really think not telling the members who were demoted might be a bad move . . .

[CM]

PM sent as requested.

[C Elegans]

You haven't been here for a very long time Fas, and you haven't been moderating for a long time. Still you post a long description of events you have not participated in, nor seen, and claim to have information about these events.

Sadly both of you mods are incorrect. Grunts banning was officially announced by Buck. Sailor Saturns was also made public. Every single banning that has been made has been made publically.

Grunt and Sailor Saturn were banned because of public flaming, and this occurred visible to all here at SYM. Luis Antony and Ravager have not been banned, and as you can see from Buck's statement above, his decision to remove their moderator status was not based on events that had occurred publically at SYM.

It is competely incorrect to claim that "every single banning" has been made publically. Bannings occur daily. As an old time member you should remember the early bannings of high profile members that were never disclosed publically.

I don't understand why you feel you have the right to demand a lot of information from Buck. This is his board and you are not even active here anymore, so why this immense curiosity in his business? If you are not happy with Gamebanshee, why return at all after a year of abscense?

[Hill-Shatar]

While I have no real intention on making this worse than it already is, Fas' newest thread possibly states the reason he is so interested in the topic, as well as a number of other incidents that are more or less questionable.

I might not visit often anymore, but I enjoy reading and posting in SYM once in a while. 10,000 posts tend no to accumulate by accident. However, perhaps that is just my own nostalgia kicking in, and that I should stay out of this thread.

[CM]

As mar closed but buck reopened it I am not sure if the discussion is to be continued. But a mod can always close it if they wish.

CE i am sorry you haven't read my post. But my post describes events I have been present in. Feel free to point out where I was not present. You are more than welcome to change the subject of the thread. However before that please edit the contradiction in your second and third paragraphs. Btw you may want to do a search because the banning of grunt was made public after members complaiend.

Answer one simple question. Why are moderators that abused their powers and openly flamed members allowed to stay when members who have not broken the rules demoted?

[C Elegans]

While I have no real intention on making this worse than it already is, Fas' newest thread possibly states the reason he is so interested in the topic, as well as a number of other incidents that are more or less questionable.

Fas is describing his intepretation of some alleged events. Frankly, I've been a mod longer than Fas and I don't even know what events he is referring to. I really think people need to realise that subjetive interpretation of an event does not necessarily mean it completely correct.

I remember you flamed a lot of people long ago. That's the only flaming from a mod I remember, and as you yourself should remember it did not pass by without any consequences.

[CM]

LMAO! CE do you really want me to link the threads where you flamed kayless - there is a thread in the mod forums on it as well which mods can look at.

Or do you want to discuss the thread where Vicusn flamed someone and the mods had a discussion and you defended/made excuses for his comments?

[Hill-Shatar]

Perhaps. All I have known about this is that rumours are flying around, and some have been settled. However, that response there was as to why Fas might be complaining, not that I was immediately agreeing with him. Although, you have to admit, some of what he is touching on is some of the darker sections in SYM history that you were a part of, CE.

As for not knowing what's going on, I've read a good bit of the BG II forum and SYM, and I still don't know how half your minds work.

[Damuna_Nova]

Or do you want to discuss the thread where Vicusn flamed someone and the mods had a discussion and you defended/made excuses for his comments?

I could direct you to some posts where mods have made worse infractions than I and still nothing has been done, but let's not go into that.

[C Elegans]

LMAO! CE do you really want me to link the threads where you flamed kayless - there is a thread in the mod forums on it as well which mods can look at.

Or do you want to discuss the thread where Vicusn flamed someone and the mods had a discussion and you defended/made excuses for his comments?

Please do link to it, because I have never flamed Kayless Link to it so everybody can read it by themselves

Vicsun I have no idea about, I cannot speak for him and I don't know what incident you are talking about.

You are the new sphinx?

[ch85us2001]

I would love to see those posts, Fas. Whether by public channels or not.


Quite frankly, I can point out a spot on this board where almost every SYM member (Myself Included) has flamed someone.

[C Elegans]

@Hill: Meaning, you talk in riddles, I don't understand what you're referring to.

@Fas: I must go to bed soon but please, I'd appreciate if you linked to the thread where you percieved that I flamed Kayless. Or any thread where I flame anyone, for that matter.
Note though that I am a highly insignificant Diablo II-forum mod So just as Buck accepted a single flame from you, he may have accepted a single flame from me (if you can find any).

In any case Fas, you are making a far too big affair out of this and you connect a series of events that you perceive as related but that are not. Going all the way back to Gruntboy and Kayless is very far-fetched and I really do recommend you to relax a bit and continue spamming somewhere where you are happy

[Hill-Shatar]

@Hill: Meaning, you talk in riddles, I don't understand what you're referring to.

Yes, yes, I was making a rather hastily and crappily done response to Chanak.

Darker sections include such things as the Sailor Saturn incident, Kayless leaving, etc, etc. You do, admittedly, have been a major participant in what could be described as some of the "darker" periods in SYM history, am I correct?

I can always turn everything into a riddle. Next I plan on making references to poets and the abyss.