Malkavian or Tremere?

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:51 pm

Since posting my first post, i have been looking around and i have narrowed it down to these 2 clans, partly because the Malkavians get Dementation and sound hilarious and partly because the Tremere get that Blood magic (forgot the name..) and Dominate.

However, i was wondering which one people would recommend for a 'first-time-player' (a.k.a. noob)?? And which stats i should concentrate on?

Also, as nobody has replied yet, here are some of my questions from my first post, "Also, i see there are unofficial patches and i was wondering if it was worth installing the latest of these and the latest official one? Also, has anyone fixed the gun damage, as i read that they are majorly underpowered making them virtually useless unless you have a very high weapon (or is it firearm) skill? (I thought, maybe, this would be in the unofficial patch)"

Thanks

Haydox

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:01 pm

Anyone? Someone must have played both...

Shizz · Post by **Shizz** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:25 pm

Now now... impatience is bad for the heart. ;-)

As for your question: Many players argue that both clans are not necessarily a good first playthrough.
The Tremere are lined towards maximized use of disciplines, which cost a lot of xp. Dominate and Thaumaturgy (their Blood Magic) make a deadly combo, but the blood to support your disciplines may be hard to come by. Still, with a little practice, in my opinion even a first-time player can manage to get through the game and have a really good time while doing so (and some... megalomanic tendencies at higher levels - or am I the only one to cry "Bow down, mere mortals!" when reaching Level 5 Thaumaturgy?)
Malkavians, meanwhile, are _pure_ fun. Usually newbies are counseled against doing their first playthrough as a childe of Malkav, because it can be somewhat hard to figure out what exactly you're about to say to an NPC (their dialogue lines are... queer, to say the least). I for my part have not found this to be a problem, even though English is not my native language. And there's one thing for new players that's just dead useful with Malkavians: Their +2 perception bonus. Without it, I probably would have been stuck for weeks at a few points, since perception makes many items and clues much easier to spot - and honestly, using xp to buff that skill is just.. wrong.
Aaaand.. there's also dementation. Yes, it's very similar to Dominate - but it's just so much more fun to use. And while many people think Dominate 5 to be the real winner (Mass Suicide) I think that Dementation 5 (can't remember what it's called) is far superior; simply because it leaves help- and hapless bloodsources for you to enjoy. ;-)
So, if you're adept at the language you're playing the game in, you should go with Malkavian, in my opinion.

As for the unofficial patches: They require the official patch 1.2 and are definitely worth using. Many things are more balanced, bugs are removed - for me at least, they greatly enhance gaming fun.
Oh, and firearms: Definitely not useless. In some situations, going up close is all but necessary, but the guns later in the game are just... awesome. Don't let the .38 at the beginning discourage you: The fun starts the second you get your first shotgun. ;-)

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:42 pm

Dialogue isn't the only challenge Malkavians have to overcome in this game. Most of the other playable clans can rely on brute force or a nearly impenetrable defense while dispatching their enemies. Malkavians don't really have that option. In my opinion, it takes a little more planning and finesse to build a good Malkavian than it does with other clans. Obfuscate and Dementation are extremely effective against mortal opponents, but you will find yourself going up against many supernaturals as well. Against them, you'll need to rely on your other skills to survive.

I would recommend learning the game a little more first before playing a Malk. Learn what works well for you and what doesn't. Then take that knowledge and apply it to your Malkavian.

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:49 pm

Oooooh, conflicting opinions!

I was reading all the advice on building a character and trying to remember which skills to get to which level then which book to read, and i eventually thought 'sod it, ill make my own mistakes, just like i did in Oblivion'!!

I may try a malk, as i thought the body explosions made for a good waste of blood (blood spell 5)! Also, i play a lot of rpgs (no social life

) so im sure i can muddle my way through by turning off auto-level and making my own mistakes!

Thanks for your opinions.

Haydox

P.S. Any skills/disciplines/stats (or whatever they are called in this game) i should focus on when playing a malk?

Shizz · Post by **Shizz** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:11 pm

While it is true that Malks don't have any real "tankstyle" disciplines, one should be ok by upping melee to a decent value - at least, it worked for me (my first playthrough was a malk ;-) On the other hand, I can claim fps and "Jedi Knight" experience... Still, I never found the combat part of the game to be an unconquerable obstacle, as long as at least one combat skill and decent equipment are at one's disposal. But, once again, this is a question of style and of what you want your character to be like.

As for skills: Apart from the all-but-necessity of pushing at least one combat skill (of course, the game still remains beatable, if you don't do so - it's just gonna be reaaaally hard), Malks mostly behave like other clans skill-wise, and there can be found a plethora of discussions about which combat/techie/social skill or attribute one should focus on.

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:24 pm

haydox wrote: P.S. Any skills/disciplines/stats (or whatever they are called in this game) i should focus on when playing a malk?

That's really going to depend on your playstyle. The Auspex discipline makes a ranged build a natural choice for Malks. However, you can get your brawl and melee abilities up to 4 and 5, respectively, via research books and dialogue with Nines. So a melee build is a relatively cheap and certainly viable alternative.

Arguably the most useful feat to have when speaking to NPC's is persuasion. As a Malk, you can start with 3 points in Scholarship and 2 in Charisma, which will get you a persuasion feat of 5. Put one more point into Charisma to raise it 6, and that's all you'll really need for most of the game. There are a few instances where you can get some benefit for having it higher, but not many.

If you do go with a ranged build to make the most of your Auspex, you may want to put a few points into Finance to lower the cost of ammo. With a research book found downtown and some persuaion with Fat Larry, you can get Finance up to 5 while spending only 6 xp on it. Xp, xp, book, book, Larry.

Although Malkvians do have Obfuscate, don't underestimate stealth. It costs no blood to use, and those supernaturals who see through Obfuscate will remain blind to your presence when sneaking. Stealth kills can make many missions that would be challenging into a walk in the park.

As far as your Disciplines go, Auspex is better than it might appear at first. It doesn't just let you see auras, it grants a bonus to Perception and Wits, even pushing them past 5 if you have the full 5 points in them. Perception will boost your ranged feat, and allow you to see things that would remain hidden otherwise. Wits increases your defense and your hacking feat. You can leave Obfuscation at level 3 if you want. It allows you do perform stealth kills while remaining invisible, and that's probably the best thing about Ofuscation. Level 4 just allows you to stand up and move full speed. Level 5 is where it become very nice, since you can then interact with objects and still remain invisible. It's up to you if you want to spend that much xp on it, though. Dementation is very effective against your mortal opponents, especially if you take the "completely bat****" history. Levels 3, 4, and 5 of Dementation are all very nice, and level 1 is quite helpful for when you need be sneaky. Dementation 2 is the closest thing to a defensive discipline Malk's get, but it's not that great.

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:19 am

So if i do be a Malk it is worth upgading 1 good combat skill, getting persuasion up, increasing finance a bit and improving perception to help with auspex and guns.

However, i am confused as to the difference between the Ranged Feat and the Firearms skill? Do i directly upgrade these, or do i upgrade certain main attributes which contribute to the increase of these? Or did none of that make any sense.....

Thanks again

Haydox

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:24 am

You increase your ranged ability by increasing skills such as firearms. Each skill contributes to increasing one or more of your abilities. For example, the brawl skill will increase your unarmed fighting ability. Strength will increase your melee and unarmed fighting abilities. And so on.

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:30 am

Ah, but what is the difference between a Skill and a Feat? This may seem stupid but i mainly play simplier RPGs (Oblivion, Morrowing, Diablo...) which use more 'basic' level-up systems. (I know that this game doesnt have levels as such, but you get my drift)

This may also be simple, maybe im being stupid!

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:43 am

You have a set of skills etc. that you can increase. These include strength, dexterity, stamina, firearms, security and so on. You spend XP in order to increase these. When these increase, your feats increase and its your feats that determines what your character can and cannot do. Feats are things like melee, ranged, unarmed, hacking, lockpicking, research and so on. Every character has the same feats, but the skills you choose will determine which ones they specialise in.

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:47 am

Ok, i get you now! Thanks.

Also, i was just looking and it appears that if i was a Tremere i could do the same 'trick' Anax said to get persuasion at 6, and i could use Auspex with the Firearms skill, to good effect, as that isnt a 'melee' which Tremere cannot improve much. I would also get that blood magic skill (odd name) AND dominate so feeding should be easier (i think...).

I may have changed my mind to a gun-weilding Tremere, as i can hit people from distance which negates the disadvantage of not being able to improve melee beyond 4.

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:13 am

Any clan with Auspex will have a slight edge with guns. At level 5, Auspex grants a +3 bonus to Perception, which translates to a +3 bonus to your ranged feat (ranged feat is increased by the Perception attribute and Firearms skill).

So yes, a gun in the hands of a Tremere would be just as effective as a Malkavian. Tremere also get Dominate and Thaumaturgy. With guns, Domination and Thaumaturgy, a Tremere has quite an array of firepower. Thaumaturgy 3 gives you Blood Shield which is a pretty decent defense until it wears off.

It's a little more expensive to get persuasion up to 6 for a Tremere than a Malk. Malks get one point to spend on social attributes at character creation, and Tremere don't. Still, it's a difference of only 4 xp.

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:28 am

I will go with Tremere then, for some reason i am always more inclined to the 'magey' and ranged attacking characters!

Now all i have to do is wait for the game to arrive (hopefully tomorrow)!! If i can....

Thanks again, again (maybe again) for your help!

Haydox

numerrik · Post by **numerrik** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:12 am

i quote most malk players here...

"WE DO NOT!!!! NEED ANOTHER FISHMALK!"

if you want to play a joker that is fine, but a parody character to run around with is better suited to being ravanos, malkavians are meant to be played with their illness, for a better example, go to an insane assylum and tell me if they are funny, although malks may not be that messed up but they are not meant to be jokes.

here is a malk info site Clan Malkavian
more specifically this page for tips for first timers The Official Camarilla(tm) Malkavian Website and The Official Camarilla(tm) Malkavian Website

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:40 am

numerrik wrote:i quote most malk players here...

"WE DO NOT!!!! NEED ANOTHER FISHMALK!"

if you want to play a joker that is fine, but a parody character to run around with is better suited to being ravanos, malkavians are meant to be played with their illness, for a better example, go to an insane assylum and tell me if they are funny, although malks may not be that messed up but they are not meant to be jokes.

here is a malk info site Clan Malkavian
more specifically this page for tips for first timers The Official Camarilla(tm) Malkavian Website and The Official Camarilla(tm) Malkavian Website

Slightly confused as to the purpose of that particular rant, however those sites are pretty cool! Thanks.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:01 pm

Think he qualifies as a purest, he doesn't think STers like Troika should have the right to make a more entertaining Malk, I am guessing.

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:03 pm

Acleacius wrote:Think he qualifies as a purest, he doesn't think STers like Troika should have the right to make a more entertaining Malk, I am guessing.

Ooooh, ok. I shan't argue with them on the subject of Malkavians then!

Deman · Post by **Deman** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:11 pm

Anaximander wrote: If you do go with a ranged build to make the most of your Auspex, you may want to put a few points into Finance to lower the cost of ammo. With a research book found downtown and some persuaion with Fat Larry, you can get Finance up to 5 while spending only 6 xp on it. Xp, xp, book, book, Larry.

I'm sorry for bumping an old thread but this got me curious. I read in one of the guides over at gamefaqs that if you already had advanced beyond a certain level of the skill (finance 3 in this case), the "skill upgrade by a person" shouldn't be available for you any longer. However, it seems that the guide writer had been playing the game with an unoffical patch attached to it, so this might be something added by the patch. If the later should be true, than would it be possible to redo the same procedure with Nines (with meleé and brawl)?

Jhereg · Post by **Jhereg** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:36 pm

haydox wrote:I will go with Tremere then, for some reason i am always more inclined to the 'magey' and ranged attacking characters!

Now all i have to do is wait for the game to arrive (hopefully tomorrow)!! If i can....

Thanks again, again (maybe again) for your help!

Haydox

Ah, wisdom carries the day. If you're careful with your Tremere, you can wind up with a heck of a lot of the skill display painted red by the end of the game. If you max Thaumaturgy and Dominate, There are a heck of lot of end-game level battles that you barely have to sneeze at. Cranking up your combat, melee, ranged, and sneak will take care of pretty much anything else.

As mentioned elsewhere, the trick with Tremere is to manage your blood-flow, not your cash-flow, but I play Tremere always, and I've never had to hit up Vandal for blood. By the end-of-game, I'm usually outfitted with 8 Blood Packs, 4 Blue Blood Packs, 2 Elder Vitae, and, of course, the Chalice, loaded to capacity, and about $3500-$4500 in loose change. With that and all of the blood-sacks (humans) kicking around begging to be an aperitif, about the only thing that's even a marginal hassle is the Sherrif.

However, it is a clan that requires you to think your way through the game. If you favor mage-type characters, though, I suspect you are already pretty good at that. If you go off-track, you can shoot yourself in the foot pretty fast. It's the thought that makes the difference between building a Tremere that can even make the Sherriff quake in his over-sized galoshes, and a weakling that's barely a match for an armed human.