Unofficial patch 2.8, released, please report problems here.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:01 am

Hey, if your trying 2.8 and experience a problem please post it here, so we can collect issues and get them fixed.

Thanks.

Remember to start a new game.

Darksythe · Post by **Darksythe** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:56 am

hmm intresting

ill have a read into this... a log here what was changed and repaired might be nice

As atm the download area were i get the versions from is overloaded so i cant realy see the changes/fixes hehe...

Wesp5 · Post by **Wesp5** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:53 am

Darksythe wrote:hmm intresting ill have a read into this... a log here what was changed and repaired might be nice

Here it comes:

v2.8
----
Made all enemies drop their weapon when killed except the Brothers.
Added missing inspection node to Bertram's CD and many more items.
Unlocked doors to Boris for Venus quest and lowered Dema condition.
Removed .38 got for skipping the tutorial and added the quest log.
Swapped histories around again to alter those that made no changes.
Lowered .38 ammo price and time when crossbow bolts are available.
Added humanity loss for sending Copper and a wrong bloodpacks line.

Moved misplaced Ra texture folder and corrected female wield model.
Restored exploding King's Way runner and altered book loading tip.
Fixed options when asking Trip for weapons and a Prince line error.
Removed respawning warehouse thugs and missing beachhouse weapons.
Made clinic guard not open doors twice and added a Nurse condition.
Fixed Eerie Presence bonus and reactivated the downtown sewer map.
Repaired possible Gallery crash on entry and resetable quest state.

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:50 am

Where do i download this patch as it isnt in the normal Gamebanshee VTMB Downloads section?

Wesp5 · Post by **Wesp5** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:08 am

haydox wrote:Where do i download this patch as it isnt in the normal Gamebanshee VTMB Downloads section?

You can get it from 3DGamers, Boomtown, Filefront or Worthplaying.

haydox · Post by **haydox** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:16 am

Thanks, ill get it now and install it for my first ever game when it arrives tomorrow!

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:39 pm

Sweet. Firing up a new game now.

Darksythe · Post by **Darksythe** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:59 am

Hm 2.8 is running ok atm the only thing im having a bad opinion about is geting a "Humanity lost" when you tell the oung thin blood vamp on the beach to take the stake after he got the "unicorn blood" stuff and stake any of the 3 options now normaly hed just go off without any hit the thing is that you shouldnt loss Humanity at all

As hes a Vampire anyway hes not human so thiers nothing humane about sending him to his death anyway seeing hes already dead and makes nearly no diffrance, so will this tiney bit be changed in 2.9? i find it kind of redicules lossing Humanity over some thing were the person isnt even human so...

Then again thats just my opinion and its mostly stating a fact too...

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:47 pm

I didn't realise you necessarrily send him to his death?

I haven't had a chance to try the game yet as I am, in the middle of a good RPG, making it hard to stop to play another game.
I did see it was changed but maybe, Wesp changed the dialogue that forces him to his death now?

I will look for this when I start playing, also I guess that is true he isn't human anymore, though i'm not sure how to catogise it at this point.

Darksythe · Post by **Darksythe** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:17 am

kk thanks

its anoying thats all i dont know what ells has been changed, id have preferd it if genearly if the mod fixes the things that wernt and add the missing stuff and then do another mod ontop that cover extra content

but thats just me i suppose in this case thiers no point asking.

But imo it is elogical to loss Humanity to some thing when person isnt even Human lol. Also btw that thing were you send him to his death its rather obvious hell dei lol, who would if youd try to kill Rodriguez or the Prince or the President of the United States lol...

forgedude · Post by **forgedude** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:28 am

Why not?

It is possible, entirely, to gain Humanity points for helping out non-humans in these game or showing mercy to them- Lily and the Gangrel Killer are two, I think there's more- so it follows that you could also lose humanity by the way you deal with non-humans.

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:50 am

It might help this discussion if we first define humanity. Rather than use a dictionary definition, let's use the one offered by the game itself. Take directly from the in-game tip about humanity:

Humanity is a moral code that allows Kindred to retain their mortal sensibilities in the face of their transformation in to parasitic monsters. In essence, it is what keeps a vampire from becoming a mindless animal, enslaved by their thirst for blood.

Humanity is a moral code. Now consider your treatment of Cooper. First, there's the matter of extortion. You exploit his ignorance of vampirism to rob him of nearly five hundred dollars. Then, you send him on a fool's errand to attempt to assassinate one of the following: A Camarilla prince, an Brujah Anarch leader, or the US President. Cooper may be a vampire himself, but he is a neonate and a Thin Blood on top of that. His chance of surviving any of those three encounters is miniscule at best.

There is nothing moral about the way you deal with this poor idiot. You rip him off and send him to almost certain death. The humanity loss is warranted, in my opinion.

Shizz · Post by **Shizz** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:50 am

I have to concur with forgedude; I'd also like to add that torturing an animal, for example, would be a very inhumane act, as you are deliberately inflicting pain to a being that can both feel and express pain. And while Kainites are not human, they are sentient and sapient - I would thus call it logical that ending - directly or indirectly - an innocent thinblood's existance would bring you closer to the beast. And sending him to his death in order to swindle a few dollars from him.. I'm pretty sure that's inhumane.
I'm no P&P player, though - just my two cents. ;-)

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:32 pm

Well, I thought the president line was intended as Dev humor not that he would ever get near him or die.

If it's then intended for him to die from this then yes, I certianly see it being a humanity hit.

Edit
Do you some how find out, he was killed looking for the president?
I certianly never got any indication he was killed or would be killed.
You clearly are taking advantage of him but I have always considered Humanity hit for threating someones life or killing them not playing a trick on them.

Certianly mean but Humainty?
Maybe due to playing D&D but the whole reason (afaik) to have Neutral aliments was to establish gray areas between Good and Evil acts and to me an Evil act is a Humanity hit.

Jhereg · Post by **Jhereg** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:48 am

*** Spoilers ***

Anaximander wrote:It might help this discussion if we first define humanity. Rather than use a dictionary definition, let's use the one offered by the game itself. Take directly from the in-game tip about humanity:

Humanity is a moral code. Now consider your treatment of Cooper. First, there's the matter of extortion. You exploit his ignorance of vampirism to rob him of nearly five hundred dollars. Then, you send him on a fool's errand to attempt to assassinate one of the following: A Camarilla prince, an Brujah Anarch leader, or the US President. Cooper may be a vampire himself, but he is a neonate and a Thin Blood on top of that. His chance of surviving any of those three encounters is miniscule at best.

There is nothing moral about the way you deal with this poor idiot. You rip him off and send him to almost certain death. The humanity loss is warranted, in my opinion.

That's all true, yes, but you don't actually kill him. Other vampires hunt the thin bloods for sport, don't they? At the beginning, Jack tells you that breaking any number of laws will be the normal order of the night before the night's out, and that humanity loss comes from killing innocent humans. He may be an innocent, but he's not human, and you don't kill him. No harm, no foul. There is nothing in the vampire code of humanity that obliges you to protect the militantly stupid from themselves, or that prevents you from taking advantage of them. Heck, ordinary real-life people do that to each other all the time. It's called 'marketing'.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:41 am

Just remembered not only does D & D have a neutral/grey area but even Star Wars, iir in KotOR Jolee was a Neutral as an example.

Wesp5 · Post by **Wesp5** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:18 pm

Anaximander wrote: There is nothing moral about the way you deal with this poor idiot. You rip him off and send him to almost certain death. The humanity loss is warranted, in my opinion.

I agree with you, also you loose a humanity point when sending Milligan to Pisha so personally killing someone is not necessary

.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:31 pm

Think LaCroix got a Humanity hit for sending us into certian death in Santa Monica?
Or when he told the Sabot we nuked their warehouse and set the trap to kill us at the start of Downtown?

Anaximander sepcificly left off the part that says "Killing Innocent Humans" in that tip.

Just as Jack explains very clearly during the tutorial.

Your also acting like we know premeditated we are sending them to there deaths. you are thinking with knowledge of hind sight, which is clearly incorrect.

No one has provided any info I see that shows Cooper is killed, if you tell him the president and Milligan is clearly not an innocent and is clearly a threat to the Masqurade due to the fact that he is Not innocent.

How about when we threaten Vandal, do we get a Humanity hit for that?
Or when we threaten Mercurio (as a female) to turn him into a Unik if he refuses to tell us about Jeanette, humanity hit?

Of how bout the Blueblood when we take his money, by threatening him, Humanity hit?

Even if you go an change all of these you are doing based on your oppinion, not on how the game was intended and designed, because there is a grey area.

Your acting like a bunch of damn Paladins, not Vampires.

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:46 pm

I would argue that you're interpreting things too literally. You say a loss of humanity occurs only when you kill innocent humans. I believe it should happen when you kill any innocent, human or not. In Cooper's case, you send him to kill one of three targets. True, your character can't know the future, but you cannot tell him that his death is an unforseeable consequence. Whether he lives or dies, it doesn't change the fact that you callously sent him into danger with no regard whatsoever for his life or well being.

Milligan is clearly not an innocent and is clearly a threat to the Masqurade due to the fact that he is Not innocent.

The fact that he his a threat to the Masquerade doesn't change the fact that he is an innocent. You get a humanity loss here for the same reason you do if you send Patty down to Pisha or kill her yourself. You say Milligan isn't an innocent. Certainly, he's no saint. But what crime has he committed that is so heinous? Has he tried to kill you, or anyone else that you are aware of? No. He stumbled into Pisha's lair, and for no more reason than that, you send him to his death. Ask Pisha if she's going to eat him, and she says "eventually." Sounds like his death is going to be slow and painful, to me. You seriously don't think you deserver a humanity loss for sending this man to be tormented and eaten alive?

How about when we threaten Vandal, do we get a Humanity hit for that?
Or when we threaten Mercurio (as a female) to turn him into a Unik if he refuses to tell us about Jeanette, humanity hit?

In each case, you threaten but do nothing. If you actually did castrate Mercurio or kill Vandal just because you didn't like him, you would loss a point of humanity.

Of how bout the Blueblood when we take his money, by threatening him, Humanity hit?

You take his money, not his life. The real difference between this and Cooper is that you don't send this snob to his demise. Robbing this man is as immoral as robbing Cooper, but robbery and extortion by themselves aren't quite bad enough to warrant a humanity loss.

What is? Anything that brings you closer to your inner Beast, the mindless animal within. Killing with no provocation or justfication - whether your target is "innocent" or not - results in a loss of humanity. Go Downtown, kill any one of the gang bangers that wander around there, and you will lose humanity. These are not "innocent" humans - far from it - but you still lose humanity for murdering them.

Acleacius · Post by **Acleacius** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:54 pm

I don't see how I am too liberal, I cam just going by what is wrtten in the game.
As I mentioned Millian and Cooper aren't killed by us or force to go anywere are do anything they go on their own account, how is that liberal?
You are pretending they have no choice, clearly they do.

I am saying Milligan is not innocent because he is a slime, have you read his emails and computers.
The point is he would use this info for personal gain not because he was helping anyone, we could never trust him to keep this secret like Julius or Serial Killler, not becasue he stumbled into a lair, but that is even the another point he had escaped before, you are still determining this with after the fact and neglecting to account for we are not in anyway making them do anything, there fore it's gray area and why the developers intended for it Not to be a Humaniity hit.

You are clearly changing intended design.

Btw I have never sent Patty anywhere but the option out of town.