Who are the best and worst US Presidents of all time? (no spam)

[jopperm2]

So, I've been in this really heated discussion about an entirely subjective topic, and it reminded me of my "good ol' days" at SYM debating things to no end while completely outnmbered. Soooo...

I've decided to post this here and get SYM's reading on it. I'm sure it will be a bit left of my opinion, but I'm still interested. Let's start by just posting nominations for who would be in the top and bottom 5 and then at some point when there are enough nominations, we'll vote.

Try to only consider the candidate's actual presidency, not time as VP or before and after being in office. More to come when I have more time. Probably monday. :mischief:

With sincerest apologies to the moderation staff, I forgot to mention this is a NO SPAM kind of thread. I can see where it will lead otherwise, and I already have plenty of derogatory but humorous nicknames for Dubya.

[fable]

Worst

Andrew Jackson: Virulent hater of Native Americans. Launched a genocide program against them. (And it's not out of context to call it that, considering his language and intent.) Also killed the Bank of America, causing a series of panics over the next several presidencies. An iconoclastic, power-hungry dictator.

James Buchanan: Simply ineffectual, in all things, at all times.

Ulysses S Grant: A man of great personal integrity with no ability to judge others. He took away nothing but his salary from the Presidency, but many people enriched themselves in national scams they launched with Grant's support.

Warren G Harding: An utter cynic who appointed an incredibly corrupt cabinet. Its members not only stole the government blind, but maintained a whorehouse at public expense for their own visits and their friends.

Dwight Eisenhower: Always pushed off hard decisions on others, and left them flailing after they were made. His major debacles include a complete lack of comment upon Senator Joe McCarthy's Commuinst witchhunt, and his call for Eastern Europeans to rise against their Soviet masters--without lifting a hand to help them once they did revolt.

Richard M Nixon: Do I need to say a word?

Ronald Reagan: Numerous scandals during his administration. Economically bankrupted the nation. Began dismantling what little safety net existed for the poor (legal services, etc). Created enormous waste in spending. Foreign policies were a disaster--most notably, his support of Sadam Hussan, who was provided with chemical weapons. Domestic policies included the destruction of several vital wetlands, and the removal of laws limiting media monopolies.

Dubya: This one's pretty obvious.

[Dowaco]

I only feel I should comment on those who were president during my lifetime. Bush Jr is not done yet so he could be on either list. If his policies bring about a fundemental change in mideast politics then he might be on the best list.

Worst
Johnson - one word, Vietnam.
Clinton - need I say a word?
Carter - All I remember is the botched Iran hostage fiasco.


Middle
Eisenhower - A placekeeper in good times. Did not rock the boat.
Ford - forgetable

Best
Reagan - Fall of the Soviet Union, biggest tax cut in history.
Nixon - Ended Vietnam war, opened relations with China, saved the nation a painful pending impeachment by doing the right thing and resigning.
Bush Sr. - Resurgence of national pride
Kennedy - The Cuban missle crises. He stood tall and invoked the Monroe Doctrine.
Truman - Ended WWII.

[Magrus]

Hehe, the last two posts amuse me to no end when put together. Umm, to be honest, I am thoroughly disgusted with American leaders, as far back as time goes with American leaders. The country was founded by people that disgust me, and has been led by people that disgust. The only things that have changed are the increase in national debt, the fashions, and the technology.

If you want my opinion on the "best" president? Clinton. The man got some on the job. If that is the worst thing that can be said about that man rather than being racist, a thief, murderer, idiot, or other such things, then there's really no sense bashing him.

The worst? Without delving into history, there may be one that I would dislike more if I did so, I dunno. However, from what I do know, Andrew Jackson. He was to the Native Americans as Hitler is to the Jews.

[dragon wench]

I won't put forward my views here as I'm not American, but
@Fable, I notice you have a worst list, do any of the US presidents make it onto a best list, in your opinion?

[Magrus]

hmmm? where did my post go? i posted a few hours ago...

Yeah, just had to point out, you're not crazy, I saw it and wondered the same thing myself.

[fable]

It's not a spam thread, guys. That's where it went.

Best presidents? Tough call, since I think the whole idea of having any leader, at any level, who craves the job, means that the person who (usually) gets it is gutter filth. That aside, here are a few I think deserve some regard:

George Washington: He twice refused to accept lifelong power, and once, an elavation to royalty. He also protested regularly to Congress, demanding respect for each other and dignity in office. Okay, it didn't work, and Bush is trying for the royalty angle, but hey, George gave it his best.

Andrew Johnson: The fall guy after the Civil War. The man who succeeded Lincoln. He immediately fell afoul of the Republican Abolitionist group in Congress, and was perceived as "soft" on slavery. In fact, he wasn't soft on slavery, but tried to achieve reconciliation between the states based on a plan that would satisfy the South as well as the North--and was doomed to failure from the start. Despite this, and the genuine hatred many in Congress felt for him, Johnson did his best to pursue his goals with honor.

Chester Allen Arthur: Chosen as vice president for James Garfield, who was shot by a disappointed office seeker and died in office. Arthur knew he stood a zero chance of getting the Republican nomination the next go-around, so he conducted his remaining term with an exemplary lack of party bias that sent the GOP howling mad.

Harry Truman: Man of many faults, but also hardworking, straightforward, responsible, and absolutely honest. Many of his personal policies never were translated into presidential actions, because he was too far ahead of the curve on such matters as racial equality and a social safety net.

Jimmy Carter: Like many governors, Carter came into office with little understanding how they do things "inside the Beltway," and he ended up seeming more than a little naive next to the slickers that ran Congress. Still, he stacks up as probably the most ethical man to occupy the White House in the 20th century. His decisions were almost always governed by what he thought were best in terms of others, rather than attempting to sell himself through constant polls. Though he received the Nobel Peace Prize a few years ago for his work in achieving world peace since leaving office, it really only acknowledges the personal qualities of the man.

[Magrus]

It's not a spam thread, guys. That's where it went.

Are you saying you straight up deleted a post by someone else without an explination for being spam when the thread starter in no way indicated it was unwelcome?

[fable]

Are you saying you straight up deleted a post by someone else without an explination for being spam when the thread starter in no way indicated it was unwelcome?

The thread starter made it clear in his first post that it wasn't a spam thread:

I've decided to post this here and get SYM's reading on it. I'm sure it will be a bit left of my opinion, but I'm still interested. Let's start by just posting nominations for who would be in the top and bottom 5 and then at some point when there are enough nominations, we'll vote.

US Presidents in the thread title, not those you wanted to be presidents, or those you (or I, or anybody else) thought would make a good laugh in a post. If you, or Yeltsu, or anybody else for that matter, has a problem with this and feels this was meant to be as much a spam as serious thread, feel free to PM me on it. I'm open to changing my mind, but I have to say this looks pretty cut and dried, IMO.

Meanwhile, let's get back to the thread.

[Siberys]

I don't know much about them presidents, but I do know that I admire Geogre Dubyah Bush for his americanizing and militarizing of the people that terrorize and manipulatize the people of this countrianized....country!

(Hmm, in honesty, all I can say is I did find Clinton's work pretty well done for a decent president)

[fable]

No spam designation added to thread, per request of Jopperm2.

[Chimaera182]

I seem to recall also coming away from the Clinton era with this notion that he was not all that bad a president. Yes, he got some on the side and yes he lied to Congress about it, but really what was it Congress' business? Or the nation's, for that matter? Wouldn't you want to instinctively lie if you were questioned on deeds of misconduct? And, as Magrus said, if that's the worst thing he did during his presidency, that is hardly worthy of being a stain on his career like the one on that blue dress (couldn't resist).

As far as great presidents, I go with FDR: I meant to post in Tony's thread about leaders I respected, but FDR was one of them. His programs during the Depression led to the revitalization of the U.S. economy, provided countless jobs as well as creating things that could benefit all (like the highway system and some dams). Also, despite his leaning towards supporting the Allies in WWII, he quite deftly kept the U.S. out of the war as it was the prevailing opinion at the time. To serve the needs of his people before his own desires is a mark of integrity. Then he went on to be a strong war-time president. Also, before the amendment limiting the term of the presidency, he was the only president to ever be elected four times; that's supposed to be a true mark of how beloved he was by the people. If the term hadn't been limited to just two 4-year terms, how many presidents since FDR could have garnered the love of the people in such a way?

After FDR, I don't really think of any great U.S. presidents. Worst? Well... that list is lengthy and already been pretty much spelled out by others (particularly fable's list of inequity).

[jopperm2]

Thanks fable! Also, apologies to those spammers who did not pick up the no spamminess that was supposed to be implied. It's been way too long since I started a thread here and I forgot that you have to beat spam off with a lead pipe.

We have some very different opinions here, and I would say they are mostly well thought out and well founded. I don't share them all, but that's okay.

I may have forgotten to mention that you can include more personal aspects that make you like one president or another. For instance, in addition to the points -- that I completely agree with -- fable pointed out about George Washington; I also like him because he was a Mason, and a friend of one of my favorite French men, Lafayette. He also warned us about a lot of the problems our country faces -- partisan politics in particular. I really enjoy the paintings of him laying the cornerstone of the White House in a Masonic ceremony.

Without picking a fight, I must say that I like Reagan, and to a much lesser extent Nixon. I do respect anyone who has a beef with either of them because I agree that they both had serious downfalls. Perhaps fable can change my mind as he probably remembers the Teflon President far better than me, and I wasn't even born when tricky Dicky was in office.

In reference to Clinton. He was a decent president, though I don't think he really did anything to make it to a best list. From what I have heard, he was a bit cautious and his adminitration had opportunities to nab or kill bin Laden like seven times and didn't. That's not good, but not bad enough to make my worst list.

I'm not a fan of Johnson(andrew, that is) because of his interpretation of the powers of the president. He's not on my worst list either though. I would expect liberals to choose him in a best list though and don't have much problem with that.

I like Truman too, and I think he's a great pick. Hadn't really thought of him before.

I don't like Carter's presidency. I don't think he was that effective and his personality grates on me. After his presidency, however, he has been a powerhouse and totally deserves recognition. I don't like him much though during his presidency.

I don't have any problems with Bush Sr. and in fact like him, but I don't put him near the top.

Kennedy is actually in my worst list. Not just because of his party affiliation either, though that's part of it. Part of it is that I really despise his home state. I can't stand his personality or accent. His wife wasn't nearly as charming as people make her out to be(though better than any other first lady I've yet seen). I basically boil the Kennedy administration down into several high and low points. The Space Program(high), Bay of Pigs(Low, though I don't totally blame him), Cuban Missile Crisis(High, although I don't know how else a president would handle that situation), and Escapades(Low, philandering and other such activities unbefitting of the leader of the free world). It's a shame he was assasinated and I certainly don't wish that on him. I think history would not look so kindly on him had he lived for his whole term. (I'm sure to take flack for that one, but I've always felt this way)

I agree that Jackson was a tyrant, though it pains me to say such a thing about a Brother Mason. He's regrettably in my bottom five.

Buchanon, Grant, and Harding show up on most people's lists. For good reason too. I think there are others I dislike more, but they're good picks. I also went to a terrible prison of a middle school for half a year called Warren G. Harding Middle school. That sours his name a bit for me.

Dubya sure. I don't think he's on my bottom five because there are a few things he's said or done that I liked. I fully expect most democrats to pick him though, and he's not a good president. Certainly unpopular, and even though there is a value to being independant of opinion polls; an elected official owes it to his constituents to at least pay passing attention to them occasionally.

Sooo.. Yeah. Anyone with a little time want to tally the nominations so far?

I don't have the time to post my lists yet, but there are a couple that haven't been mentioned yet.

A brief addition: *dons asbestos suit* FDR is on my worst list. I don't want to go into detail as I'll end up on a conservative tirade the likes of which most of you have never seen(fable, DW, and Magrus being notable exceptions). He did help pull us out of a depression, but I think his approach was akin to ending a house's termite problem by burning down the house. He was, IMHO, responsible for creating a mentality that is harmful to the nation. Perhaps a bit more on this later.

Teddy Roosevelt is one of my faves though. Perhaps for no good reason.

[Vicsun]

Worst
Clinton - need I say a word?

Well, I'd like to hear a few, actually. Are you placing him on the list because of his extra-marital affair, or because you disapproved of his role as a president?

[fable]

Without picking a fight, I must say that I like Reagan, and to a much lesser extent Nixon. I do respect anyone who has a beef with either of them because I agree that they both had serious downfalls. Perhaps fable can change my mind as he probably remembers the Teflon President far better than me, and I wasn't even born when tricky Dicky was in office.

The first president I can remember in detail was Kennedy, though I lived throughout Eisenhower's administration. As for Reagan: he did many things that I consider very negative, and some of them have been continued by Dubya. Targeted tax cuts for the rich, for example: that was invented by the neo-cons in the Reagan administration, the first time they made their way into government. David Stockman, Reagan's "financial boy" in the Office of Management and Budget, admitted later that one reason for doing this was the neo-con one of starving the government of funds for social projects.

While on the subject of economics, the fiscal deficit when Reagan entered office was almost 790 billion dollars. When he left, it was nearly 2191 billion dollars. The interest payments alone each year exceeded 100 billion dollars. It was the worst federal deficit in US history--until Dubya. And it dragged on the economy, in a way that we're also beginning to feel, now.

Yet for all that, real dollar federal assistance to schools (as an example) dropped by 9% during Reagan's terms, and infrastructure spending (usually in the form of grants to states for spending on highway roads and repairs) dropped nearly 25%.

The social safety net was nearly dismantled under the Reagan administration. Hospitals, including those associated with the Veterans administration, saw massive cuts. So did legal services nationwide, and mental institutions. A huge number of borderline cases were put out on the streets. Inflation was driven down, but unemployment when over 10%, and remained very high. When a couple of the homeless died after sleeping on a very cold night outside the White House, I remember Reagan remarking in a press conference that "They probably weren't Republicans."

The "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude of the curent administration really started during the Reagan years. That same amazingly insensitive "They probably weren't Republicans" was trotted out following the Jonestown Massacre, when roughly 900 people (including almost 300 children) either committed suicide or were killed by cult leaders.

Reagan and his neo-con colleagues had a black/white view of foreign affairs, as well, which has come to such disastrous fruition in Dubya's term. But it was during the Reagan years that Rumsfeld, then in private business, was empowered on behalf of the government to sell chemical weapons to Sadam Hussein. They were intended for use against the Iranians. You tell me that this wasn't worthy of bringing the Reagan government before any court on "crimes against humanity"? All this was, of course, while human rights organizations were already accusing Hussein of atrocities against the Kurds. US helicopters sold by the Reagan administration were employed by Hussein when he gassed them, later. It would be extremely disingenuous to assert that Reagan and Company didn't know what use they would be put to, given Hussein's well known record, and his on-going campaign to decimate the Kurds.

While on the international front, Reagan also directed a series of wars in Central America: Guatamala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua. Each one was in favor of a rich, landed minority elite, that provided cheap exports to the US. The fact that the US was involved in Guatamala, a secret and undeclared war, nearly got Reagan impeached, except for his imitation of a braindead man ("I don't know.") before Congress. He literally sounded like he unware of anything, and repeatedly stated those words with utter bewilderment. Yet Reagan was quick to pardon those "responsible" in his administration for financing the illegal war, and was joking confidently and making presidential decisions later that same day.

By eliminating tons of anti-trust legislation, Reagan's administration paved the way for the media mergers that have lost us a free press, and resulted in nearly all media outlets in the US being controlled by one of three major international corporations run by an extremely conservative media magnate. The largest of these, Rupert Murdoch, regularly fired managing editors at the newspapers he took over if they didn't support the Republican ticket. This isn't considered "newsworthy" enough to write about usually, but as it has eliminated a variety of viewpoints within the media, this is very serious, indeed.

The Texas Savings and Loan Disaster! I almost forgot that one. One of the worst bank disasters of the century, caused by the deregulation atmosphere fostered, approved, and signed into law under Reagan. When it was over, and all those banks had gone under, the public footed a 150 billion dollar bill.

While AIDS was engullfing the world, Reagan didn't say a word until 1987. By then, 20,000 Americans had died of it. One use of his office would have been to encourage responsible behavior and to support plans to research the epidemic. While Surgeon General Koop advocated an aggressive campaign of public awareness to assist prevention, Reagan's Secretary of Education, Bill Bennett, refused to allow funding for this, and insisted any such campaign only focus on abstinence.

Dismantling the Environmental Protection Agency: its budget was slashed by half. Reagan advocates were installed to see to it that the rules weren't enforced. Alternative fuel research was gutted, as well. Reagan was a big oil man, as were his buddies--a state of affair we can see today, in the second administration to pursue these policies.

Anyway, those are the ones I can remember offhand. If I recall more, I'll post 'em.

[Dowaco]

Well, I'd like to hear a few, actually. Are you placing him on the list because of his extra-marital affair, or because you disapproved of his role as a president?

Well, this was partly a parody of Fable's one liner on Nixon. But I don't like Clinton for several reasons.

He seemed to not have a vision of his own and instead use polls to dictate his stance on issues. Wishy-washy does not equate with strong leadership.

His presidency seemed to be a partnership with his spouse, who weilded far more power than a non-elected offcial should whether she was qualified or not.

His extra-marital affair(s) distracted the country and the subsequent trials divided conservatives and liberals to a much greater extent than I have seen in my lifetime including the Nixon years. This vindictive and contensious rift continues to this day. It used to be enough to politely disagree and move on. Now, disagreement brings vindictive harangues from both sides. I attribute this to Bill Clinton's poor leadership and lack of moral character.

He never held a real job in his life, left the country during Vietnam, and "didn't inhale".

Clinton's tax increase was targeted at my income level, so I personally got hit hard in the pocketbook.

Finally, I just dislike his smarmy "I feel your pain" lip biting act. He is a morally flawed individual with no respect for the office of president or the people he was supposed to be leading.

[prateek]

this list has a bias towards more modern presidents since I am not completely familiar with many of the older presidents (Coolidge, Harrison)

Worst
Johnson - Vietnam
Carter
George W Bush - Iraq War, ridiculous on social conservatism, butchered any intelligenc out of the republican party in the name of national security, patriotism, and family values

Best
Clinton - Despite the scandal (which i think is total deleted - Maharlika considering there have been numerous presidents who have had affairs and doesn't impact the vast majority of americans), the country was doing quite well under him. Whether or not it was mostly his doing or because of external, uncontrollable events is up for debate

Eisenhower

George Washington

@prateek: the use of acronyms wherein one of the words is something not permitted to be used, is not also allowed. Please be guided accordingly. Thanks.

[jopperm2]

Well, this was partly a parody of Fable's one liner on Nixon. But I don't like Clinton for several reasons.

He seemed to not have a vision of his own and instead use polls to dictate his stance on issues. Wishy-washy does not equate with strong leadership.

His presidency seemed to be a partnership with his spouse, who weilded far more power than a non-elected offcial should whether she was qualified or not.

His extra-marital affair(s) distracted the country and the subsequent trials divided conservatives and liberals to a much greater extent than I have seen in my lifetime including the Nixon years. This vindictive and contensious rift continues to this day. It used to be enough to politely disagree and move on. Now, disagreement brings vindictive harangues from both sides. I attribute this to Bill Clinton's poor leadership and lack of moral character.

He never held a real job in his life, left the country during Vietnam, and "didn't inhale".

Clinton's tax increase was targeted at my income level, so I personally got hit hard in the pocketbook.

Finally, I just dislike his smarmy "I feel your pain" lip biting act. He is a morally flawed individual with no respect for the office of president or the people he was supposed to be leading.

Wow, that was better put than I expected. Good on ya. I agree with most of your comments, but I don't think that puts him on my worst list. I don't like him personally. He was rather forgetable professionally. The way I look at it, he didn't screw anything up; but he was a bit shady. I say that for these reasons:

1> Whitewater- I don't know much about it, but it left a shady impression
2> Cronyist Appointments- Everyone does this, espescially W, but I still don't like it.
3> Eleventh Hour Pardons- See #1 and #2 (This actually bugs me quite a bit)
4> The whole lying to congress thing- Who wouldn't? Still not a bright spot on his career though.

So, to me Clinton was rather forgettable.

@fable:

Thanks for the insite on Reagan. I was aware of some of it. It probably won't surprise you too much that most of that doesn't upset me much with the exception of the S&L fiasco. I don't like things that waste my money.

I have to say I am a strong supporter of alternative fuels. Not for the same reason as you I'm sure. I don't like ecomomic dependance and that is what we have. I equate it with our dependance on illegal immigration or the south's former dependance on slavery. It's bad stuff, but what are we supposed to do until someone comes up with something better? Well, people are coming up with something better. We need to start using it.

I also see your point about the Jonestown tragedy. Mostly the children aspect of it. What's a president supposed to do in that situation though. Be a little more empathetic, I suppose. Especially a president that relies on image and charisma like he did.

Of course the deficit is upsetting. You can guess I would say that. And school funding. I suppose I agree with you more than I thought. I still don't dislike him. Maybe I'll remove him from my top five.

I think the rest of our differences on Reagan are idealogical in nature and you already know my stance on those issues. Most of them at least. Also, I weight foreign policy higher than domestic policy, another thing we differ on I think.

[Chimaera182]

He seemed to not have a vision of his own and instead use polls to dictate his stance on issues. Wishy-washy does not equate with strong leadership.

Considering that our leaders are supposed to represent us to begin with, I'd rather have a president who appears 'wishy washy' than a president who turns out to be inflexible. I'd certainly prefer someone who doesn't say they are for or against one thing, but then in private turns out to be completely different on the issue (fable can provide examples of W.'s doing that, as he has in the past and I don't have any on-hand).

Anyway, we do seem to be bickering rather a lot. When it comes to something like "Name the best/worst" anything, that is based on opinion. I would definitely not list Dubya in the best category, but there are people in this thread who have or would, and there are people in the U.S. who would. That is opinion (which can be based on any number of facts, some of which have already been trotted out here). But do we really have to justify those opinions? All jopper really wanted was us to list Presidents we believe to fit the best or worst categories, at which point we could vote on it. I could say that the worst president was Washington because he was overly-flatulent. It might be a rather bizarre reason to classify him as the worst president, but it's still my opinion. So when fable and Dowaco did their "Need I say more"s, I don't really care for their justifications; that's all they really needed to say.

[jopperm2]

Point well taken. Traditionally though, people here have always campaigned for their opions when there was to be a vote.

That and I enjoy argument. Espescially against such insurmountable odds as fable.