Party advice

Zalath · Post by **Zalath** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:14 am

Hi,

I just started (or am starting) ToB, and I thought I'd kick one of my NPCs out to get room for Sarevok, which I assume would be a good decission.

My party consists of the following:

Myself
Kensai (level 9)/Mage (level 25), dual-wielding Crom F./C. Fury

Imoen (level 22)

Jaheira (level 14 druid/level 15 fighter

Anomen (level 26)

Minsc (level 22)

Keldorn (level 20)

The first three ones I'd like to keep (well, two if you exclude myself), even though ToB isn't very romantic with Jaheira, I enjoy having her around.

Do I need to keep Anomen around for his spells (ie. cleric only, spells that can't be accessed by the Planetar and such)?

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:46 pm

Minsc is definitely the least useful of that bunch, but you may prefer his attitude and proficiencies to Sarevoks.

Thrifalas · Post by **Thrifalas** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:50 pm

Everyone of your character is a warrior except for Imoen. So you might want to chill out on those pure warriors, as Sarevok pretty much fills that spot alone.

Personally I'd kick Anomen the whiner, but personally I'd never pick him up to begin with. From a tactical point of view, it's pretty clear that you should get rid of either Minsc or Keldorn.

Minsc is a hillarious character, but doesn't exceed Sarevok in any way, besides the pros and cons of beign a ranger compared to a warrior. Keldorn, on the other hand, is lacking character, but is a Paladin and that means a lot if you've aquired Carsomyr.

A frontline with Keldorn wielding Carsomyr and Sarevok wielding Ravager is known to be one of the most wicked frontlines the vanilla game has to offer. But then again, Minsc is a wonderful character with many dialoges and well... he's just supposed to be there.

So it's strenght against fun imho. And the question if you have Carsomyr.

Zalath · Post by **Zalath** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:46 am

Yup, Keldorn got Carsomyr (actually, getting rid of that dragon was perhaps the only hard battle on SoA imho).

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:43 am

Zalath wrote:The first three ones I'd like to keep (well, two if you exclude myself), even though ToB isn't very romantic with Jaheira, I enjoy having her around.

Do you mean you started romancing Jaheira in SoA? If you played it the right way, the romance should continue in ToB.

Zalath · Post by **Zalath** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:49 am

Oh? I thought her romance ended in SoA.. doesn't matter, I planned on keeping her anyway.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:15 pm

*** ToB Spoiler ***

You don't *need* to keep anyone around for anything. Any 5 NPC's will get you thru the game just fine. In ToB, I tend to tip party balance towards the warrior-heavy side, which you got more than covered.

I had a PC Cleric, Keldorn, Minsc, Jaheira, Imoen, and Aerie in SoA, then kicked out Aerie for You-Know-Who in ToB. I can confirm that You-Know-Who & Ravager was lots of fun fighting along side Keldorn & Carsomyr. Oh yes, a sight to behold.

Couldn't imagine benching Keldorn & Carsomyr. And the story most closely relates to Imoen of any NPC. And you gotta finish the romance, so Jaheira's a keeper. As you've said.

Minsc or Anomen would be the way to go, imho. Anomen's spells are nice, but Minsc with the Axe of Unyielding is nice too. Of those two, who do *you* enjoy having around more...?

...there you go!

Zalath · Post by **Zalath** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:14 pm

.. I guess Minsc will get sacked then, when I think about it Anomen's level-seven damage spells are kind of nice

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:06 pm

I would keep Minsc over Anomen any day. Minsc dual wielding axe and mace against vampires is a sight to behold. He is a much better character and if used right can be a terror. I always only kept Anomen as a healer primarily and warrior secondary. Granted I haven't played ToB yet but I am right near the end of SoA and have never once regretted having Minsc in the party. Great characters mean more to me than powerful characters.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:05 am

I agree that Minsc can be a powerful NPC, but so can Anomen. He's a fighter/cleric and that means he can buff up in various ways to boost his defenses, stats, THAC0 etc. I've used him as a my main tank and he never let me down.

@CFM: there are still people playing this game for the first time, believe it or not

. If you mention things like the ToB/Sarevok thing it's a good idea to put 'spoiler' in front.

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:46 pm

If you are looking for an easier game, choose Anomen over Minsc and play him well.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:37 pm

Coot wrote:@CFM: there are still people playing this game for the first time, believe it or not . If you mention things like the ToB/You-Know-Who thing it's a good idea to put 'spoiler' in front.

Good point, although I thought it a moot point since several of the previous posts in this thread already mentioned him, including the original post that started this thread.

None the less, it is always a good idea... previous post edited.

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:23 am

Pellinore wrote:I would keep Minsc over Anomen any day. Minsc dual wielding axe and mace against vampires is a sight to behold. He is a much better character and if used right can be a terror.

Perhaps, but at ToB levels Anomen can just blow vampires up by looking at them, no? In any case, as most of these posts kind of show, it depends on the weapons proficiencies that have already been built up. Minsc is the most natural to be replaced, though he does have value as an archer, since there seems to be a lack of ranged fighters (could be generally covered with Jaheira on sling).

Since the PC is actually primarily a mage, if the Staff of Magi is roaming around in the pack, the PC could always use that in the places where Carsomyr was thought necessary. Just going by variety, I'd say to dump Keldorn. His dispelling/true sight powers are useful in SoA, but by ToB, you should be able to have that well covered. Further, does Keldorn have the gauntlets of Dexterity? I've typically found him rather poor without them.
And anyway, if Carsomyr's still your thing, the guy you want swinging it in ToB is JAN!

Zalath · Post by **Zalath** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:49 am

Ian Kognitow wrote:Perhaps, but at ToB levels Anomen can just blow vampires up by looking at them, no? In any case, as most of these posts kind of show, it depends on the weapons proficiencies that have already been built up. Minsc is the most natural to be replaced, though he does have value as an archer, since there seems to be a lack of ranged fighters (could be generally covered with Jaheira on sling).

Since the PC is actually primarily a mage, if the Staff of Magi is roaming around in the pack, the PC could always use that in the places where Carsomyr was thought necessary. Just going by variety, I'd say to dump Keldorn. His dispelling/true sight powers are useful in SoA, but by ToB, you should be able to have that well covered. Further, does Keldorn have the gauntlets of Dexterity? I've typically found him rather poor without them.
And anyway, if Carsomyr's still your thing, the guy you want swinging it in ToB is JAN!

For ranged stuff I have Minsc, Keldorn, Anomen and Jaheira (the latter two with slings. Keldorn have gauntlets of dex. That's of course situational - I usually have Keldorn and the main character fight in close combat instead. I do have the staff - Imoen is carrying it atm.

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:20 pm

Zalath wrote:For ranged stuff I have Minsc, Keldorn, Anomen and Jaheira (the latter two with slings. Keldorn have gauntlets of dex. That's of course situational - I usually have Keldorn and the main character fight in close combat instead. I do have the staff - Imoen is carrying it atm.

That sounds like a pretty solid arrangement which I would say definitely makes Keldorn an easy choice to be replaced with Sarevok. From a role-playing perspective, since you're using your PC as your main tank, I like the image of he and Sarevok side by side 'in close combat' against the 5 other Bhallspawn of ToB better than old Keldorn. But on the more strategic level, Sarevok outclasses Keldorn as a pure melee fighter in every way *except* wielding Carsomyr; and again if you absolutely need the dispel-on-hit to win a battle you can just have Imoen throw your PC the Staff of Magi. Keldorn's double-level dispels are nice for early fights, but in ToB you should have your PC and Imoen using Remove Magic instead (x3 in a sequencer for maximum success), which keeps your own precious buffs intact. And with 4 other characters capable of True Sight, Keldorn's free ability isn't a great asset. Sarevok alternatively gives the still very useful extra benefits of starting out with grandmastery, making it easy to get him up to a standard 4 attacks per round, and brings Deathbringer assault (combine with silver sword for extra instant-killing). The MR% can be achieved easily enough (by Minsc as well) with the HLA or potions. In sum, unless you demote your own PC to backline duty, a third tank in Keldorn is practically redundant.

Even with both clerics on slings, keeping Minsc as an archer is still quite useful to push in ranged elemental damage, and is even moreso if you had picked up dispelling and biting arrows. He'll have better Thac0 and won't be kept from casting useful spells while shooting. And if things are going badly in melee he can still throw down in a rage and more than adequately hold his own as a tank.

Also, don't overlook Jaheira as a supplementary tank. Besides being quite tough with the use of a strength belt and Iron Skins, she'll need to be close to the enemy anyway to use Nature's Beauty. If those enemies' impenetrable buffs are causing problems, let them stagger around blindly until they wear off.

Really, the *only* good reason to keep Keldorn would be for role-playing purposes, but then if the whole point is you wanting to let an evil, murderous bastard like Sarevok in the party, the Paladin's virtues probably don't hold a lot of sway.

Schu · Post by **Schu** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:54 pm

Ian Kognitow wrote:Keldorn's double-level dispels are nice for early fights, but in ToB you should have your PC and Imoen using Remove Magic instead (x3 in a sequencer for maximum success), which keeps your own precious buffs intact. And with 4 other characters capable of True Sight, Keldorn's free ability isn't a great asset.

Remove magic is of course very nice, but what about if your party is held (to which Keldorn is conveniently immune)? I usually give keldorn items to give him all useful immunities that he needs except for hold and charm of course, so when the entire party is affected by something like that, he is immune and he can
dispel it all (and he never fails to do that, as opposed to casting a normal dispel magic). If he isn't immune to something, he has excellent saving throws to count on.

True, others can cast true sight, but it's nice to have Keldorn around so that the other casters can save their spell slots for the more damaging spells. (same goes for dispel magic).

My vote goes for kicking minsc out, he can't compare to keldorn at all in these regards, and Sarevok beats him too.

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:24 pm

Schu wrote:Remove magic is of course very nice, but what about if your party is held (to which Keldorn is conveniently immune)? I usually give keldorn items to give him all useful immunities that he needs except for hold and charm of course, so when the entire party is affected by something like that, he is immune and he can
dispel it all (and he never fails to do that, as opposed to casting a normal dispel magic). If he isn't immune to something, he has excellent saving throws to count on.

Since I had been specifically talking about ToB, every party member's saving throws should be pretty low, if not in some cases in negative territory. I can't really recall anything that would hold the entire party anyway--it's not like there are a lot of mages or anything still casting web (an even then, it's unlikely everyone is going to miss the throw). And of course there's the ring of free action and cleric free action ability for a situation that really requires it. On top of all that, Keldorn's free action is specifically tied into his personal armor. It's fine armor, but I imagine it's fairly common in ToB, again where saving throws generally prevent holds, to give Keldorn armor that offers better AC.

Schu · Post by **Schu** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:36 am

Ian Kognitow wrote:Since I had been specifically talking about ToB, every party member's saving throws should be pretty low, if not in some cases in negative territory. I can't really recall anything that would hold the entire party anyway--it's not like there are a lot of mages or anything still casting web (an even then, it's unlikely everyone is going to miss the throw). And of course there's the ring of free action and cleric free action ability for a situation that really requires it. On top of all that, Keldorn's free action is specifically tied into his personal armor. It's fine armor, but I imagine it's fairly common in ToB, again where saving throws generally prevent holds, to give Keldorn armor that offers better AC.

Pretty low saving throws is never good enough, there's always something that will screw up the party. It doesn't have to affect the whole party to rain havok on the whole shebang and require an old paladin to fix it.

Ring of free action can't be equipped after the event, only before, so it's just pot-luck really if the person waering that ring happens to be the one that missed their saving throw. The cleric spell is nice, but it takes up valuable spell slots and has a casting time of 7, so 4.2 seconds. Keldorns ability has either a 1 casting time or a 0 casting time. MUCH better. Also, Keldorn is immune to so many things that the cleric isn't (unless you rely on equiptment) so he can cast sometimes when the cleric can't.

I wasn't talking about armour, I was talking about the fact that all inquisitors are immune to hold and charm intrinsically, so if Keldorn wants to use one of the better armours, he can still certainly do that and still be immune to those things, and doubtless he can be given equiptment to give him other useful immunities without much trouble.

And what to say about Minsc? He's a great warrior, sure, but not that much better than Keldorn, and he doesn't have any realy use other than tanking.

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:44 am

If you look at my original post on this thread, I said this:

"Minsc is the most natural to be replaced, though he does have value as an archer, since there seems to be a lack of ranged fighters (could be generally covered with Jaheira on sling)."

So given the notion that Sarevok and the PC (Ken/Mage) are more than enough to handle melee situations, Minsc's abilities as an archer I found more suitable for a balanced party (may for that reason be better off with Mazzy, but that's a different story). And I'd even venture to say that in ToB, when Keldorn's other abilities can be easily duplicated, Minsc's enrage ability can be more useful, and incidentally also make him hold-free (and while he doesn't get the Inq. bonus, Minsc too can dispel magic as a level 3 spell). Give Minsc arrows of dispelling as well if you like. It's actually a better option to dispel bad magic against your own party members since it won't take down all buffs in the area - just on the single target.

I did neglect the Inquisitor resistance to hold, thinking it was only charm, because the armor would seem redundant. But as for the free action ring, it can indeed be equipped in mid-battle, like any other item except armors. It's just like the tactic of slapping on the charm helmets whenever some vampires are around. It's kind of cheesy but possible all the same. (at least slipping on a simple ring seems less stinky than switching boots). I don't really understand your argument though that even with the ring always on, it's only luck that that character misses the saving throw. Isn't your whole argument that Keldorn's free action allows him to bail out the party whilst everyone else is down? How is it different for his much more powerful Kensai-Mage to be permanently free actioned instead via the ring? And again, as to your first point, assuming some spell has totally incapacitated, say, half the party (even when most saving throws across the board are at least <5 in ToB), what situation is such that only 'an old paladin can fix it'? Certainly, if someone needs to get beaten up it can be handled in short order by the PC or Sarevok; and if a dispel is absolutely necessary, every single member of the party in question except Sarevok is capable of dispel magic.
More specifically about saving throws, it was you, in your original argument, who had brought up Keldorn's 'excellent saving throws to count on.' I was just pointing out that in ToB, everyone is going to have such throws.

As for dispel magic in general, I really don't want it anywhere near my party. I don't even remember using it once by any character in the ToB chapters during my last game. Remove magic is more than nice, it's inherently a better offensive option. I've always found the best recourse when party members are incapacitated is to quickly get rid of whatever danger is still out there. Which, actually seems to be what you're saying anyway about not wanting the mages/clerics busy dispelling. So, if something is badass enough to incapacitate everyone worthwhile, it's probably going to be doing something quite unfortunate to Keldorn if he's pulling out his dispel (which will also then make them even more vulnerable to further damage).

About the casting time--remove magic, dispel magic, and true sight can easily be loaded into contingencies (and chain contingencies), making the casting time absolutely 0 (and contingencies of course can be cast while paused in the middle of battles without regard to alacrity). So again, the PC (who probably has saving throws around 0 anyway), Imoen (or basically any mage or bard) wearing the free action ring is pretty much even more efficient in the role you say is only for 'an old Paladin'. For that matter, in ToB you're much more likely to get stunned rather than held as far as incapacitation goes. Dump Keldorn, get yourself a bard, and start singing.

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:02 pm

Why is everyone so down on poor Minsc??? I had him with me from Nashkel to the Abyss and the Justice Fist and he kicked major butt for me. I used him as a tank, enraged him and let him go to town on vampires and beholders. He ended up with Axe of Unyielding and Storm Star and was just a pure terror (not as much as my Paladin

). I never figured out why my Paladin started leaving him behind in XP as both use the same XP table and I was only one level above him in the dungeon (ended up 4 levels ahead)...