How will they Implement TIME STOP?

two · Post by **two** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:40 am

I was wondering how TIME STOP will be implemented in BGIII.

It seems like as soon as the experience cap is lifted and mages/bards(eventually?) can cast this spell it could very easily unbalance the game.

I think in BGIII there better be less "single bad guys" like One lich or One dragon to fight. I mean, cast Time Stop, then with 6 free rounds, if you can't kill ANYTHING you are a lousy mage. What, that's 3 lower resistances, 2 greater malisons, 1 finger of death? If you throw in sequencers and stuff it gets truly silly. You could knock a magic resitance of 200% to zero, cast 3-4 malisons, and use your kill spell of choice.

One solution is, of course, fight 3-4 liches at a time; Time Stop takes out 1-2 leaving the rest of the party to deal with the others. Or 4 dragons. Better be a really BIG room.

Another solution is hordes of lesser creatures with high magic resistance. In 6 rounds you maybe can kill 5 or so but after the spell wears out it's ugly. The swarm concept was not used much in BGII, that could help.

Then, of cousre, you could cast one Time Stop after another... after another. Sigh.

I hope they do this right!

Oh, one other thing that could help. Stop allowing indiscriminate sleeping. Like, a dungeon where you can't sleep at all. That way you have to hoard your spells until you really need them, and it would make for more fun/more challenge.

Any other ideas?

RiPPeR · Post by **RiPPeR** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 12:09 pm

yeah you are right but i think in bg2 they have maked these powerful monsters like dragons and liches very much easys to kill, maybe in trone of bhaal they will put ancient dragons and lichs that you can only kill if you destroy his amulet with soul imprisioned

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 12:42 pm

Well firstly, there isn't going to be a BG III, only the BG II expansion Throne of Bhaal.

So I think it's safe to say the implementation will stay exactly the same as it is in BG II currently.

Liches are really not easy to kill, it's the AI that lets them down (they cast all their spells, while you hide round a corner waiting for them to wear off).

------------------
Quitch, being the Ranger known as Skyhawk, is a proud member of The Brotherhood of the Woods

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 12:49 pm

Actually after what I've read there will be a BG3 - but not continuing the storyline of BG1+2+ToB.

And why would they change TimeStop?? - It works in BG2.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 12:52 pm

We're overlooking the obvious. They could simply remove TimeStop.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:25 pm

Time Stop is a very good spell, but not as abusive as you might think. Much less abusive than Projected Image and Similacrum.

It's only 3 rounds. As far as spell casting goes, you can think of it as a more advanced Sequencer: Any level spell, determine the spells when cast...drawback being that you can't store spells before sleeping.

Of course, you can also use it to move around or to get extra attacks in, but only for your spell caster and over 6 rounds the net result would be the same as improved haste...and it would only be useful for a fighter/mage of some sort.

An Assasin/Mage could potentially get in 4 backstabs before the opponent could react by combining this with potions of invis (or Staff of the Magi), but the potions of invis by themselves would work almost as well.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:32 pm

You can cast as many Time Stop as you want with the help of Project Image/Simulacrum.
I think those are the most problematic spells. They are flawed and IMHO Project Image is way too powerful even with xp cap.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:38 pm

@Nighthawk: at the same time

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:40 pm

I mean we wrote at the same time. Just my line is soooooo slooooooooow.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:16 pm

They could have a dragon flight of 3 or 4 dragons attacking a city. They would come in flying and attack the city while you knocked them down to the gorund with missile weapons and spells. That would be fun.

shesgottahaveit · Post by **shesgottahaveit** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:50 pm

Ya the monster/dragon difficulty in BGII was disappointingly easy. I bet in BG III they will let us kill Tiamet.

The limiting factor in all games with so amny variables is the AI and in doing somthing to balance gameplay they usually give the opponent better weapons/spells. Which is why in BG II they allowed the enemy's use of time stop and PC not. I look forward to something similar with BGIII. Or perhaps they will reduce the radius for timestop.

frelic · Post by **frelic** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:12 pm

back on timestop, one person said it earlier - timestop would only affect the caster, so the rest of the party is out of luck. And it can be done back to you. And with that AI stuff, imagine if the opponents actively tried to stop your spell casting.

I just faced off with some drow and the summon nishru bunk. that was probably the worst fight I've had in the game. The drow weren't extremely hard to kill, but the cost to your party is immense in terms of magical weapons. I can always ressurect the unlucky fool that gets squashed, but to lose a staff of the magi or special armor, that stinks!!!

shesgottahaveit · Post by **shesgottahaveit** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:18 pm

Originally posted by frelic:
back on timestop, one person said it earlier - timestop would only affect the caster, so the rest of the party is out of luck. And it can be done back to you. And with that AI stuff, imagine if the opponents actively tried to stop your spell casting.

I just faced off with some drow and the summon nishru bunk. that was probably the worst fight I've had in the game. The drow weren't extremely hard to kill, but the cost to your party is immense in terms of magical weapons. I can always ressurect the unlucky fool that gets squashed, but to lose a staff of the magi or special armor, that stinks!!!

Download that patch from baldurdash to fix the nishru problem.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:35 pm

You can cast as many Time Stop as you want with the help of Project Image/Simulacrum.

I'm with Kovi on this. Any of these three spells, by themselves, could be absorbed in the game without problem, but together, they were just about unstoppable.

two · Post by **two** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:37 pm

Originally posted by Nighthawk:
Time Stop is a very good spell, but not as abusive as you might think. Much less abusive than Projected Image and Similacrum.

It's only 3 rounds. As far as spell casting goes, you can think of it as a more advanced Sequencer: Any level spell, determine the spells when cast...drawback being that you can't store spells before sleeping.

Of course, you can also use it to move around or to get extra attacks in, but only for your spell caster and over 6 rounds the net result would be the same as improved haste...and it would only be useful for a fighter/mage of some sort.

An Assasin/Mage could potentially get in 4 backstabs before the opponent could react by combining this with potions of invis (or Staff of the Magi), but the potions of invis by themselves would work almost as well.

Yes projected image/simulacrum are broken spells, and I fully expect them to be fixed in the next release -- or BioWare is not doing a good job of it.

However I think Time Stop is an "unbroken" spell, meaning it works like the desciption in AD&D pretty much, and is on a par with other level 9 spells. But unlike some other level 9 spells, it does allow a human intelligence a LOT of room to manoevre. I can imagine a level 30 bard doing tensor's, reading a scroll (or casting Time Stop if they are allowed to go that high), and with level 30 weaponry doing a lot of horrific imp. haste damage. With Belm and imp. haste that's 6 attacks/round for 6 rounds? And a level 30 figher ALWAYS hits. I don't want to try and count that high. I hope that baddie has 90% physical resistance or something.

Or as I said, just doing typical boring stuff like 3 greater malison's and some reduce resistances.

The key I think is yes, as suggested:

1) MUCH better AI.
2) MUCH less sleeping allowed for spellcasters. Make a level 9 spell count, not just cast/rest/cast again and again.
3) MULTIPLE big baddies.

The 3m's of better fun!

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:48 pm

a way to beat timestop-

you cast time stop, triggers a contigency spell on the lich linked to a teleport type spell, lich gets away clean, you waste your spell.

lich keeps summoning undead minions to prevent you from resting, wearing you down slowly till you are easy meat.

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the game designers could also take a page or two from dave's challenge at the end of "pools of darkness" ie area of the map where you can't rest or cast spells.

stacking fights, not giving you a chance to healup or cast prep spells

and i'd be very suprised if dragons were not hostile right out of the gate, rather than just sitting around waiting for you to attack.

there are plenty more ways, spell triggers, hostile environments - why would a lich need to breathe?

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 6:25 pm

I just found this info about Time Stop spell from the game manual of Eye of the Beholder 3-one of the few CRPGs to implement this 9th lvl spell.

Range:0 Duration:Short Area of effect: WHOLE PARTY

This spell stops time momentarily and gives the wizard and the party time to do things such as cast more spells or run away.Everything outside the area of effect temporarily stops moving;it is as if time were suspended.Only unique creatures or creatures of demigod and greater status are immune to this spell.

I believe the last line leaves open space for changes in ToB,since "demigod and greater status" for your PC seems to be something obvious for a lvl 40 child of Bhaal.The same should apply for enemies of corresponding level of experience.

But the most interesting is the whole party effect.This may lead to many interesting possibilities,especially when you will be facing enemy parties,e.g a group of liches,casting Time Stop and then start casting dozen of spells against your party,concertrating their attacks on one party member etc.Of course you have the opportunity to do the same and with the game AI you may have the upper hand fast,although the outcome of such a battle will be interesting,especially if some enemies are also immune as stated above.

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:38 pm

From the Player´s Handbook.
page 251
Wizard Spells

Time Stop
(Alteration)

Range: 0
Components:v
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 9
Area of Effect: 15-ft.radius
Saving Throw: none

Upon casting a time stop spell, the wizard causes the flow of time to stop for one round in the area of effect. Outside this area the sphere simply seems to shimmer for a instant. Inside the sphere the caster is free to act for 1d3 of apparent time.
...

Happy?, that is the AD&D spell (if its not changed)

Also the spell does not affect powers (demigods and up) and special creatures.

[This message has been edited by Drakron Du´Dark (edited 03-23-2001).]

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 12:25 pm

Regardless of how it is writted up either in AD&D (which it should mirror) or EOB3 (which should mirror the AD&D...

In BG2, Time Stop works only for the caster and only give 3 rounds (@Two: not 6). Since you use one round to cast it, the net gain is only 2 rounds...useful, but hardly earth shattering.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 12:49 pm

@koz-ivan: it is a good idea to add some tricks for the AI, in BG2 the player has a big advantage against the AI, by leaving the area and even resting.
@two: I like your ideas about making the game and the AI harder.