The Storytellers: Do They Really Exist?

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:36 pm

I love good stories. I've been reading classic literature all my life since I was a child (my late Father was an avid book collector and our home used to look like a library to my Mother's ultimate despair) and dare to qualify myself as a "professional reader". This is my hobby #1. About 15-17 years ago I discovered my hobby #2: PC games. Because of that new hobby I started reading and collecting fantasy books.

And now, in God's year 2006 I want to know why with so many good stories in the millions of books collecting duct on the millions of bookshelves in the millions of libraries, the RPG developers are not able to find more than one or two?
How come the stories they tend to choose for us are so dull, uninspiring, repetitive, and insulting to one's intelligence?
Who writes these wretched "storylines"? Who are those people who make us roll our collective eyes? Are they professionals? Do they realize that their final product is so pathetic? Do the game developers read the reviews? Do they care? Does it matter? Am I crazy?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:48 pm

I concur...
The problem, I believe, exists because game developers (especially in recent years since the demise of Black Isle Studios) are appealing to the lowest common denominator. This is to say, players whom are easily seduced by sexy graphics, fast-paced, gory action and minimal thinking.
Why? As with almost anything these days, I'd hazard the reasons are profit and the bottom line.
Why go to the time, energy and expense of creating a game with a complex and in depth story when a large segment of the gaming community will happily buy products based on sex appeal?

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:48 pm

Big game companies are like any other industry, the only thing that catches their eye is the bottom line. They don't care what reviews of their games say, and they honestly don't care what the consumer thinks about the game so long as they buy it. Look at a lot of the official forums for games, and you'll see people not being quite satisfied with the product and either getting ignored or shouted down by fanboys. The fact is, regardless of how much most people rant and rave about an uninspired game, the majority of them will buy the next game without question, especially if that game is part of a series.

The other thing is that, as is apparent from many forums I've been to, games are more and more judged by it's shiny factor (graphics, animations, etc) rather than the quality of gameplay. Right now, the emphasis on games seems to be in making games bigger and prettier to cater to the majority of people who think that is the major determining factor of whether a game is a good game or not. I hear about is IRL constantly, people discussing games and all they talk about is the graphics.

Plus, it's a lot quicker process to pump out a game with little actual thought put into the story, sell it, and start on the next generic game than it is to spend to time to get a really deep game done. That is almost a nessecity in today's world since people get very irritated or start to lose interest if the next big game isn't out yesterday and they have to wait. Patience is a virtue that is on the decline, and it's in a lot of ways more risky for a developer to take the extra time with a game than it is to put out a lesser game.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:15 pm

Yes, yes, I know. Pop-culture, bottom line, intellectual vacuum, dumb kids etc.
But let us look at the movies, for instance. Following the same logic (and why not?), 100% of them should be in the same category, rated <MC>, "for Mentally Challenged". Though <MC> is definitely the right tag for many of them, there is still a number of decent movies out there. At least that is what some critics say.
There are even awards for the best screenplays, are there not?
So, why is it not the same for the videogame industry?
I guess I am naïve, but I wonder if it has ever been asked (or will ever be)during any interview:

"Dear Mr./Ms. Chief Producer/Designer/Developer, do you really like your new game storyline? If yes, what (in your opinion) is so damn good about it, and if no, why did you assume I should like it more than you do?"

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:11 pm

Yeah, but there are also awards every year for the best games as well.

I still have only seen a handful of movies I cared about in the past few years. At least in my view anyway, both movies and games are on the same level when it comes to quality.

There have been what I would call really good games released, there just haven't been many of them I remember playing God of War and enjoying it more than any game since my Nintendo days. Several series such as the Total War series, KotOR, and MW when you factor in the vast mod community are a few of those, although even with the Total War series, the gameplay has gone downhill as the gimmicks, gadgets, and graphics have gotten better. Still, the last installment I think sold maore than the previous, so I look for it to follow the trend. There have also been some very large dissapointments in that time as well. Fable was the biggest for me, as the developers went on an on about the greatness of that game and how it was going to be the ultimate RPG, and it turned out to be pretty much generic, short, and boring with a lot of 1st grade type humor revolving around having the options to break wind, giggle, and all that other stuff.

Unfortunatly, RPG type games tend to have the same problem that I see in a lot of fantasy literature. Lack of creativity and simply relying on familiar old standards. It's like people think if they stick in a few orcs, trolls, elves, etc then it'll sell, and it usually does.

Just my 2 cents worth of course, but I know that you can go to EAsports website, for example, and you'll find people complaining about Madden and how it's been a dissapointment for the last five years or what have you, but they've still bought every game that came out and say they can't wait for the next one because they hope it will be better. That's not something that sends a message to a developer to get their act together. I wouldn't if I were the developer.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:33 pm

@BS,
indeed... It's a formula, one that sells. We find similar formulas in a lot of fantasy literature, romance novels, detective fiction, westerns etc.
One can say the same of many movies.

Though, as Lady Dragonfly points out, there *are* a lot of excellent movies produced that actually require more than a modicum of thought and intellect from their audiences. However... often these movies are directed towards a niche market. And, gaming is already something of a niche market in and of itself.
I'm just speculating here, but it wouldn't surprise me if part of the answer lies in the fact that gaming is not mainstream in the same way that movies are. Almost everyone watches movies of some description; far fewer people game. In fact, many people who game do not make it public knowledge outside of the gaming communities they inhabit for fear of being labelled "geeky."
I could be way of base with this, I'm just musing really.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:05 pm

*deep sigh*

You are right. We buy these games. Addiction must be satisfied regardless of the side effects.

And if we set our expectations "exceedingly low" (like Edwin Odesseiron used to say), we might be pleasantly surprised.

I have low expectations for upcoming NWN2 and higher for Gothic3.
I am still hopeful about The Witcher (because of the supposedly original gameworld) and Dragon Age (because of BioWare).

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:14 pm

But why buy the games? Why not buy a very good book, instead? Or a DVD of a very good film? We feed the giant computer game producing machine if that's all we do, and they continue to churn out products aimed at undiscriminating 10 year olds. If we want better, we need to express that in the only way possible under capitalism, through how we spend our money.

DesR85 · Post by **DesR85** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:33 pm

About the graphics of the game getting better, I remember reading somewhere that the graphics technology that is constantly improving does play a large role as well. I've read this from a lot of tech articles I've seen in several hardware and gaming websites. Those article mentioned this because game developers seem to be in collaboration with the graphics card manufacturers such as Nvidia and ATI in one way or the other. It is like encouraging people to buy the top-of-the line graphics card in order to enjoy the spectacular graphics of a certain game has to offer. So, in a way, they seem to be working together. The bottom line is that the both make money. That's what really matters.

Anyway, most game developers also have a soft spot for those whose computers are not up to snuff, so that is not a very big problem (at least for now).

Lady Dragonfly wrote: You are right. We buy these games. Addiction must be satisfied regardless of the side effects.
And if we set our expectations "exceedingly low" (like Edwin Odesseiron used to say), we might be pleasantly surprised.

I have low expectations for upcoming NWN2 and higher for Gothic3.
I am still hopeful about The Witcher (because of the supposedly original gameworld) and Dragon Age (because of BioWare).

Hmm. Never played some of the older RPGs before. Could it be possible that is the reason why I was able to enjoy playing these games and not have that much of an expectation for them?

Anyway, I just play them the way they're meant to be played. A game is just a game. No big deal. Never expected that much from a game, other than just entertainment.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:56 pm

I buy lots of books and DVDs. I am not a movie fan and I don't watch much TV because I am allergic to commercials and "I wanna be rich/sexy/dumb" types of shows.
But I am a PCgame addict. A miserable slave of our videogame industry.
No, I don't buy every last title, I haven't fallen that low yet. But I feel a strong compulsion to go to Best Buy on October 17 and burn my money on NWN2 inspite my "exceedingly low expectations". Addiction is a powerful thing.
I suspect that all of us will eventually buy this game. Addiction...

But please allow me to return to my original question: who the hell writes these storylines?
Do these individuals (or groups) recieve specific instructions to pervert and dumb down everything?

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:48 pm

Bloodstalker wrote:Big game companies are like any other industry, the only thing that catches their eye is the bottom line. They don't care what reviews of their games say, <snip>

Problem with reviews are they are catering to the same demographic as the games, so a game void of gameplay and with fluffy graphics (Oblivion) can score very high in reviews, despite it not being a very good game.
Reviews and Games complement each other in their missery so much that the kiddies who are "seduced" by these kinds of games can sit and point to "Oh, but it got good reviews, so it must be good" kind of arguments. Thus us more "expecting" gamers get caught in this downwards spiral of bad gameplay with shiny graphics.
I have no hope for the gameindustry to produce games I enjoy anymore, and must be looking outside the more indy gamedevelopers where at least one game provides hope for me.

<snip>and they honestly don't care what the consumer thinks about the game so long as they buy it. Look at a lot of the official forums for games, and you'll see people not being quite satisfied with the product and either getting ignored or shouted down by fanboys. The fact is, regardless of how much most people rant and rave about an uninspired game, the majority of them will buy the next game without question, especially if that game is part of a series.<snip>

Oh, I do think they "care" about what the customers think, however the problem is that "we" are such a small part of the "customer-base", and because there are so many who purchases these mediocre games, the industry "think" they are on the right path. We have been a victim of a hostile takeover of the console generation (something I started ranting about years back hehe

)

<snip>
The other thing is that, as is apparent from many forums I've been to, games are more and more judged by it's shiny factor (graphics, animations, etc) rather than the quality of gameplay. Right now, the emphasis on games seems to be in making games bigger and prettier to cater to the majority of people who think that is the major determining factor of whether a game is a good game or not. I hear about is IRL constantly, people discussing games and all they talk about is the graphics.

You can't judge by what goes on in forums, if that would be the case then World of Warcraft would be one of the worst games in existance with nobody enjoying it.
Therefor there are many people playing the game(s) who do not post or frequent forums and their opinions are unknown.

Lady Dragonfly wrote:Yes, yes, I know. Pop-culture, bottom line, intellectual vacuum, dumb kids etc.
But let us look at the movies, for instance. Following the same logic (and why not?), 100% of them should be in the same category, rated <MC>, "for Mentally Challenged". Though <MC> is definitely the right tag for many of them, there is still a number of decent movies out there. At least that is what some critics say.
There are even awards for the best screenplays, are there not?
So, why is it not the same for the videogame industry?
I guess I am naïve, but I wonder if it has ever been asked (or will ever be)during any interview:

Only one thing differs in my book - quantity.
There are a many more movies released then there are games. Thus statistically there is a larger chance that a couple movies are good compared to games

The movie industry is following the same path that games are, or rather - I'd say the game industry is following in the movie path. With predictable movies an mass, sequals, remakes, cartoons made into movies, games made into movies etc, the movie industry as a whole does not stand as a beacon of quality in my book.

I still see movies and I still play (try) games, but lately I feel it is just to give me some added validation when ranting about the state of things

Although I have seen a couple of good movies this year (good in my opinion), I've yet to play a good game, and thus have defaulted back to Fallout (+2) and Baldur's Gate 2

I'm glad I'm working 50-60 hours a week these days, so I do not have much time to play games.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:57 am

Lady Dragonfly wrote:I buy lots of books and DVDs. I am not a movie fan and I don't watch much TV because I am allergic to commercials and "I wanna be rich/sexy/dumb" types of shows.

I stopped watching television 14 years ago, so great minds think alike.

But I am a PCgame addict. A miserable slave of our videogame industry.
No, I don't buy every last title, I haven't fallen that low yet. But I feel a strong compulsion to go to Best Buy on October 17 and burn my money on NWN2 inspite my "exceedingly low expectations". Addiction is a powerful thing.
I suspect that all of us will eventually buy this game. Addiction...

Then if you absolutely must buy computer games, look for copies of older computer games that appear to match your higher expectations, and spend your money on those. But concerning the so-called addiction, what really pushes you towards getting new game releases, despite low expectations? Is it a memory of good games? A lack of other activities? The mere hope that something will prove you wrong? I mean, if you have money to burn, there are charities the world over in need of support, and no, I'm definitely not joking.

But please allow me to return to my original question: who the hell writes these storylines?
Do these individuals (or groups) recieve specific instructions to pervert and dumb down everything?

Game programmers, and to quote the iconic Chris Crawford (who created several computer game genres back in the 1970s):

I’ve read a study that the rate of autism in children born in the Silicon Valley area is unusually high. The speculation is that basically technical people are all slightly autistic, and when you concentrate them they start breeding among themselves. Which gives you more autism in the population level. I think there’s some truth to that in a very vague, almost metaphorical sense. Certainly games programmers are not very sociable people, and games seem to attract the least social of males. So what you end up with are games that just aren’t about people, about social interactions. They’re about objects. When they do put people in the games, they’re completely mechanical. They reflect the world view that sees human beings as simple machines. And that’s really the theme I’ve been hammering away at for decades.

(The above is from a phone interview transcription I did with Chris about 4 months ago.) I think his view has a lot of merit, because when you do reduce the world to a series of objects, you lose any understanding of those objects' intrinsic and individual value.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:47 pm

@Fable
This is a very clever observation about technical people. My husband is an engineer and a computer programmer/analyst (for 30 years; and since he is a gamer too I think he used to play even on mainframe

).
He is what you would call a self-contained "introvert", not a sociable type at all. I suppose if he was to design a game it would be an "object oriented" hi-tech strategic FPS with NPC interaction confined to one at gunpoint. Well, his favorite game is Half-life. I find the name ironic.

It is peculiar that non-technical professional writers have so little involvement with a game design. I would expect that the multi-billion industry should eventually outgrow the amateurish approach when all is done by one-two smart enthusiasts. (I am not talking about a cynical aspect of mass-market strategy now).

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:14 pm

Lady Dragonfly wrote:@Fable
This is a very clever observation about technical people. My husband is an engineer and a computer programmer/analyst (for 30 years; and since he is a gamer too I think he used to play even on mainframe ).
He is what you would call a self-contained "introvert", not a sociable type at all. I suppose if he was to design a game it would be an "object oriented" hi-tech strategic FPS with NPC interaction confined to one at gunpoint. Well, his favorite game is Half-life. I find the name ironic.
<snip>

Well, I'm a computer programmer of profession, and been involved (there amongst gameing) in computers for the last 16 years. Before I turned programmer I studied economics for a number of years. And when having a choice, I'm very much an introvert.
I don't know anybody who wouldn't classify me as a nerd and/or geeky when it comes to my field of work....
Yet if I were to design a computer game it would be a RPGish game focusing mainly on choice and consequences, proberly being very unforgiving in the aspect that choices carry "serious" consequences.
My favorite genres of games are RPGs and (Turn Based) Strategy games and do not care much for FPS games or these fluffed RPG-lites.
So while I don't doubt there are some merit to fables "inteview-subject"s observation (mostly the "inter-geek marriage

), it is still a very crude generalization and sterotype with little, if any, factual to back it up. Far from all "geeks" and "nerds" fall for the fast action of the FPS games, and many seem to enjoy for instance roleplaying, and thus by proxy CRPGs.
There are many factors involved in peoples preferences, however I do not think there is any large mystery behind the decline of games... it is the bottom line which counts.

Monolith · Post by **Monolith** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:16 pm

Xandax wrote: Although I have seen a couple of good movies this year (good in my opinion), I've yet to play a good game, and thus have defaulted back to Fallout (+2) and Baldur's Gate 2 I'm glad I'm working 50-60 hours a week these days, so I do not have much time to play games.

Get a version of Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome if you don't care all that much about graphics. It's a well done historical indie RPG, truer to its roots than any of those next gen RPGs coming out in the near future.

Or Prelude to Darkness if you don't mind some bugs and crashes every now and then (the next version is to be released shortly). Also an indie RPG with great story, great game play, all the choices and consequences you can get and pretty much ignored by almost anybody on this board...

...honestly, what is it with this forum? Many of you just whine and moan about how bad recent RPGs are and when you're presented with quality RPGs you just shut your eyes and keep on hoping that NWN2 will be the next Fallout or what?

Sorry if this is offensive, not intended. Just...here are two RPGs that are really worth being covered on this board and if I post about 'em I'm pretty much ignored every time. I payed about 12 Euro for Teudogar and finished it yesterday (actually, I've already finished a couple of times. It has multiple endings) and it's one of the best RPGs I've played in a long time.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:23 pm

Monolith wrote:<snip>
...honestly, what is it with this forum? Many of you just whine and moan about how bad recent RPGs are and when you're presented with quality RPGs you just shut your eyes and keep on hoping that NWN2 will be the next Fallout or what? Sorry if this is offensive, not intended. <snip>

While your opinion is presented rather crude and confrontational then you perhaps do carry some relevance, but instead of being "offended" you could perhaps write up reviews of the game(s) and contact Buck with them if you feel the games are "underrepresented".

And I doubt many of "us" who just whine and moan hope that NwN2 will be the next Fallout.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:37 pm

Monolith wrote:Get a version of Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome if you don't care all that much about graphics. It's a well done historical indie RPG, truer to its roots than any of those next gen RPGs coming out in the near future.

Or Prelude to Darkness if you don't mind some bugs and crashes every now and then (the next version is to be released shortly). Also an indie RPG with great story, great game play, all the choices and consequences you can get and pretty much ignored by almost anybody on this board...

...honestly, what is it with this forum? Many of you just whine and moan about how bad recent RPGs are and when you're presented with quality RPGs you just shut your eyes and keep on hoping that NWN2 will be the next Fallout or what? Sorry if this is offensive, not intended. Just...here are two RPGs that are really worth being covered on this board and if I post about 'em I'm pretty much ignored every time. I payed about 12 Euro for Teudogar and finished it yesterday (actually, I've already finished a couple of times. It has multiple endings) and it's one of the best RPGs I've played in a long time.

I tried Prelude...In fact it is still kicking about somewhere on my hard drive.
To be honest, I found the interface extremely clunky and awkward to use. Maybe I'll give it another shot sometime, but it is difficult to feel immersed because of the awkward controls.

As far as the latter part of your comment...
Fair enough. However, is it *really* so much to ask for games that rival products such as Planescape Torment or Baldur's Gate Two? Games like this were created once upon a time; is it so wrong to dream that they can be created in the future ?

Monolith · Post by **Monolith** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:28 pm

Xandax wrote:While your opinion is presented rather crude and confrontational then you perhaps do carry some relevance, but instead of being "offended" you could perhaps write up reviews of the game(s) and contact Buck with them if you feel the games are "underrepresented".

I'm in sort of a dilemma here. I'm overly in need of language and journalistic skills to be able to write a decent review. Besides, contacting Buck should be left to the developers IMO. Anyways...point taken: "Stop to whine and start doing something about it". Well, here I am.

And I doubt many of "us" who just whine and moan hope that NwN2 will be the next Fallout.

You just lost *all* hope, didn't you?

dragon wench wrote:I tried Prelude...In fact it is still kicking about somewhere on my hard drive.
To be honest, I found the interface extremely clunky and awkward to use. Maybe I'll give it another shot sometime, but it is difficult to feel immersed because of the awkward controls.

I also had to get used to it, but now that I did, the game is gold. Btw, the next version is slightly better. Smoother scrolling and mouse movement.

As far as the latter part of your comment...
Fair enough. However, is it *really* so much to ask for games that rival products such as Planescape Torment or Baldur's Gate Two? Games like this were created once upon a time; is it so wrong to dream that they can be created in the future ?

Yes, if those rival products are still developed. Take the Ultima V remake for instance. Or all the Avernums and Geneforges. Teudogar. The upcoming Age of Decadence (it looks much more promising than anything recently released). Prelude to Darkness. But those games aren't AAA titles developed by major devs and thus aren't as highly regarded as any of their titles. I could be wrong, but that's the overall message I get.

PS:
I wonder how many bought King of Dragon Pass thanks to Fable's review and extolments (to be fair: I haven't yet but he definitely got me interested).

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:02 pm

dragon wench wrote:I tried Prelude...In fact it is still kicking about somewhere on my hard drive.
To be honest, I found the interface extremely clunky and awkward to use. Maybe I'll give it another shot sometime, but it is difficult to feel immersed because of the awkward controls.

I've patiently returned to that site several times over the last 4 or 5 months, only to find the download deadlinked, or unavailable.

Yes, if those rival products are still developed. Take the Ultima V remake for instance. Or all the Avernums and Geneforges. Teudogar. The upcoming Age of Decadence (it looks much more promising than anything recently released). Prelude to Darkness...

As you know, Ultima V was released 18 years ago, so while a new release of it is nice to see, it doesn't count as a new title. The Avernums and Geneforges? People as objects: "Get Quest Thingee A for me and I'll give you Skill Thingee B. My Faction C is anti-mage and opposed to D, E, and F. Won't you join?"

That's not much of an exaggeration. Comparing these games to, say, BG2 or especially the writing in PS:T is like comparing See Spot Run to Dorothy Sayers' Lord Peter Whimsey. Age of Decadence? Why bring up products that no one has tried, yet, because they haven't been made? And even if we accept your argument concerning one or two indie titles, that only reinforces the point that intellectual maturity and creativity outside graphics have moved completely away from the computer gaming industry.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:08 pm

fable wrote:I've patiently returned to that site several times over the last 4 or 5 months, only to find the download deadlinked, or unavailable.

I do still have it somewhere, if you like I can attempt sending it to you...though I'm guessing it could be a pretty big file. I'm not on my home comp right now, so I can't check the specifics.

@Monolith, in that case, when my life calms down a bit, I will give Prelude another try