Am I too low on Cleric power?

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:15 pm

Personally, I don't think so. I think I have a pretty balanced party going here:

Gnick O'Thyme Gnome Cleric/Illusionist
Jaheira
Keldorn
Korgan
Imoen
Valygar

Any advice on how to improve this party is welcome.

TIA

EDIT: This is a "no reloads" game, and I currently have Jan instead of Imoen (I'm still in Chapter 2). I plan on having Gnick use the Defender of Easthaven and stay far away from any combat. He's got phenomenal stats, having gone through BG1, and with a 19 STR I'll be using the Sling of Seeking with him (that should be a good combo when I'm not casting a spell!) He's also got 20's in INT and WIS, so my bonus Cleric spells are pretty neat.

Sparrow · Post by **Sparrow** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:32 pm

I think you're fine. Your player character has cleric spells, so when combined with Jaheira's spells, you're ok.

There are spots where you want to be fully covered with spells like death ward, but your PC is likely to have 3 of them, and Jaheira will have 3 of them.

If you're not using a serious cleric, then you need 2 characters wielding cleric spells. And you've got 'em.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:40 pm

Don't forget that Valygar, as a Stalker, has access to some low level spells as well, just in case you're in trouble.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:07 am

If it were my party, I'd replace Valygar with Anomen (or a Sorcerer, as I suggested before). Think about your weapon and equipment selections. I'd let Anomen wield Crom Faeyr (with a good shield or the Defender of Easthaven in his offhand) while Korgan wields axes and Keldorn wields Carsomyr. I'd let Keldorn wear the Gauntlets of Dexterity and a girdle of giant strength and let Anomen wear the Golden Girdle (which lowers his AC against slashing attacks) and the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise. There are lots of other items for Jaheira and Korgan (as well as weapon equipped effects). When you reach the Machine of Lum the Mad, don't give all the stat increases to your main character; distribute them to where they would do your party the most good. For example, I'd give the Charisma bonus to Keldorn, who already has the highest Charisma in your group. (You're not letting your gnome lead the group and do all of the talking in a no-reload game, are you?) I'd give the Strength and Constitution bonuses to Korgan (for Strength 19 and Constitution 20). The Dexterity bonus would benefit either Korgan or Jaheira the most.

If I used Anomen, I would correct his proficiency point deficiency (he has 4 fewer proficiency points than he's supposed to). Actually, I would set his level to 0 and rebuild him from scratch to make him a 9th Level Fighter (or a Berserker)

dualled to a Cleric, but it's not all that important in the long run. Also, before you go to Spellhold, you should dismiss Jan and take Yoshimo with you. Then you can rescue Imoen and get some extra experience when you return to Athkatla.

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:59 am

If you do Anomen's quests and keep him around, he can be reasonable and get to a decent level. I am using Viconia at the moment, but that causes conflict with good characters and you can't have Keldorn in the party at the same time - I have the sphere as a base and have dropped off a few of the NPCs in the map room, where I can get them back. having fetched purifier from WK, I have decided to do Keldorn's quests for the moment. Vicky is a level 18 cleric and it would be very difficult to get another NPC to her level in SoA. Jaheira is 13 as druid, but that doesn't give her to ability to turn undead or to summon them.
it is probably best to decide early on whether you are prepared for the aggro that Vicky causes or not - if not, then Anomen is probably a good choice, but don't ignore Aerie, as her capacity to use magic is useful, especially if you give her items she can use, such as wands.

Viconia - probably the best cleric - but she's LE
Anomen - a decent front man and cleric
Jaheira - are undead more of a problem than beasts? multiclass so slow progression.
Aerie - will her magic use make up for her slower progression?

I have a tendency to have my front line as Minsc or Keldorn and the PC - whatever class the PC is! I find it difficult not leading the line.
I have usually dualled from fighter of at least level 7, so a dual level 7-10 fighter and level 8-11 thief or mage isn't too easily duffed up. presently I have PC as l10 fighter and l13 mage - wielding staff of the magi at ++ and Celestial Fury at +++++ which makes Minsc at l13 not seem that much of a tank. Minsc uses a number of different weapon combos, as I like to adjust for expected situations - for undead he had Azure-Axe for distance and mace of disruption +2 for close quarters, but for general nasties, he often uses +3 bow with the staff of Rhyn +4 for close up work, so he is in double-handed mode. I spread his skill points around between maces/staff/bow/longsword. sometimes I develop him as a dual mace-wielding maniac with the MoD in one hand and one of the other maces/flails in the other. Minsc is AC-7 if no shield and the PC the same with the staff's +2 AC bonus, but -5 when using the katana - still even with those kinds of AC you get hit far too often by the likes of a chromatic demon.

coming back to integrating clerics - Viconia fights reasonably well and I usually give the Mauler's Arm to keep her STR at 18 - Aerie I do the same thing. in many quests, undead are the biggest problem and a cleric being drained is bad news, so that is a case for having the cleric dual-wield the MoD and Mauler's arm (before Crom Feyr). In undead scraps, the cleric with turning is a good front liner. For some reason, Anomen, like Khalid (BG1), seems to turn chicken more often than one would expect - there seems a weakness in Anomen - perhaps relating to saving throws. Viconia does not have that fragility and rarely has morale failure - which Anomen seems more prone to. Aerie's HP are a down side - so the belt of fortitude is hers when she's on the team.

many previous times my party has been PC - Minsc - Jaheira - Nalia -Aerie and whoever fits a quest. presently though I have been keeping the core as PC-Viconia-Moustrap Man (Yoshimo) and swapping NPCs in and out, even part-way through quests.

**Spoiler** re Yoshimo & Imoen

One thing that I try to remember is to remove Yoshimo's specialist equipment before he turns against us to pass on to Imoen and also keep spare spell scrolls for all those spells that she may not know when you get her back. the transition from Yoshimo-Imoen needs to be handled right. the worst thing is to take too many NPCs into Spellhold and have to abandon one to bring back Imoen. I had to do that or go back several hours play - some times I have dumped a character, some times I went back. now I always make sure I don't take people I can't retain.

DaemonJ · Post by **DaemonJ** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:07 am

VonDondu wrote:If I used Anomen, I would correct his proficiency point deficiency (he has 4 fewer proficiency points than he's supposed to). Actually, I would set his level to 0 and rebuild him from scratch to make him a 9th Level Fighter (or a Berserker) dualled to a Cleric, but it's not all that important in the long run. Also, before you go to Spellhold, you should dismiss Jan and take Yoshimo with you. Then you can rescue Imoen and get some extra experience when you return to Athkatla.

I'm guessing that you would use ShadowKeeper to set his level to 0 but what is the process of rebuilding him?

Is it a matter of the game noticing the XPs and then popping up the level up option until the proper level has been reached?

Celacena wrote:If you do Anomen's quests and keep him around, he can be reasonable and get to a decent level. I am using Viconia at the moment, but that causes conflict with good characters and you can't have Keldorn in the party at the same time

If you install the Ease of Use mod it contains a Happy Patch that allows evil and good characters to co-exist and prevents evil characters from leaving if your rep gets too high.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:08 pm

DaemonJ wrote:I'm guessing that you would use ShadowKeeper to set his level to 0 but what is the process of rebuilding him?

By "rebuilding" him, I mean setting his level and experience to 0, removing all of his proficiency points, changing his class to a single-class Fighter (the Berserker kit is optional), and setting his hit points to a low number that is easy to remember (you'll correct his hit points later since he can't start with 0). His saving throws, spells, and THAC0 will be agjusted by the game automatically when he levels up. I also raise his Wisdom to 17 temporarily so he can be dual-classed. Then I level him up inside the game. I use the CLUAConsole to increase his experience. In other words, I give him 250,000 experience points to reach 9th Level (distributing proficiency points as I see fit) and then I dual-class him to a Cleric. Then I give him the rest of his experience (his previous total + 64,000 - 250,000). Then I go back to Shadowkeeper and adjust his hit points (he started out with extra hit points, so I subtract them) and change his Wisdom back to what it was before. You have the option to change his paperdoll to a Cleric if you prefer, but I think he looks better as a human Fighter.

The second time I played BG2, I had a 9th Level Berserker dualled to a Cleric, and she was awesome--not as powerful as a Kensai/Mage, but right up there with Cleric/Rangers and Fighter/Thieves. Anomen isn't much different, so don't underestimate him.

DaemonJ · Post by **DaemonJ** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:34 pm

Thank you for the detailed explanation VonDondu. I very much appreciate it and will have to give it a try.

Raven_Song · Post by **Raven_Song** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:36 pm

If you install the Ease of Use mod it contains a Happy Patch that allows evil and good characters to co-exist and prevents evil characters from leaving if your rep gets too high.

The Ease of Use mod has also been incorporated into G3's Tweak Pack.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:35 pm

Vonny, I wouldn't mess with Anomen's proficiencies. He lost some of them because he was a Fighter first, and spent those slots on non-Cleric weapons (he has a dialogue with Yoshimo about plunging a spear through a monsters back). Also, he's an illegal dual anyway... take what you get!

Thanks for all the responses people.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:22 pm

Klorox wrote:Vonny, I wouldn't mess with Anomen's proficiencies. He lost some of them because he was a Fighter first, and spent those slots on non-Cleric weapons (he has a dialogue with Yoshimo about plunging a spear through a monsters back). Also, he's an illegal dual anyway... take what you get!

That's a reasonable point of view, and it's a very good approach to gaming.

However, I would like to point out that it is obvious that most of the NPCs in BG2 were created with an editor. If Anomen used to have proficiency points in a weapon type (or types) that he can no longer use as a Cleric, they would still appear on his character record, so he was obviously edited instead of levelled up like a normal player character. (For what it's worth, he might have started with two proficiency points in Longsword, two points in Mace, and two points in Spear, then after dual-classing, added a point to Warhammer, Sling, and Sword and Shield Style, and then added one more point to Sling when he reached 8th Level as a Cleric.) It makes me wonder how many of the "anomalies" we see are actually mistakes or oversights.

Other NPCs are also sort of "illegal" in their own ways. Aerie is an Elf, so technically she shouldn't be a Cleric/Mage. (And there isn't really a Spell of Withering in the game.)

There isn't any kit in the game for a Truesword of Arvoreen, but that's basically what Mazzy is. I can't believe that Nalia was ever a Thief before she became a Mage; more likely, she's supposed to be a Mage who knows how to pick a few locks, and making her a low level Thief dualled to a Mage was the best the designers could do within the limits of the game. In the end, I guess it doesn't matter. The characters are what they are.