How is this party?

Cihan · Post by **Cihan** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:48 pm

Hi everyone, i played SoA a little before and plan to play all the way from BG1 to ToB. I thought of a party like this in SoA. Is it ok? What are its weaknesses/strengths?

Me: Human thief, will dual class to fighter
Viconia
Haer Dalis
Cernd
Edwin

6th place will change due to NPC quests and i think of adding Sarevok in ToB.

By the way, i am not familiar with dual-classing. At what level should I dual? And, since i will come from BG1, am i going to be able to select a kit for the thief class in SoA? Also I heard about a program that enables to play BG1 with SoA kits. Should I try that?

Raven_Song · Post by **Raven_Song** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:08 pm

Hi, welcome to Game Banshee.

The only way you will be able to use a kit in BG1 is if you download and install BG Tutu which I think is hosted at Pocket Plane.

Dual classing levels are dependent upon a number of factors, including kit so what level you duel at will depend on your eventual build. Dual classing also prevents you from using skills from your initial class (once duelled) until the level of the second class surpasses it. e.g. if you duak your thief at 9, your character won't regain the use of those skills until s/he hits fighter 10, so keep in mind XP caps and such.

Thief to fighter is something of an unusal choice, you are going to have to plan carefully what skills you think this character will be making the most use of. You could check one of the thief guides over at gamefaqs for some advice.

Your parties most obvious weakness is the lack of a good melee character, a tank to soak up and dish out physical damage. It's strengths a good solid spellcasters.

However if this is your first run through of the game you might want to reconsider Haer'Dalis and Cernd because some players find them quite difficult to utilize effectively, Haer'Dalis in particular takes some getting used too. Alternativey check out the BG2 NPC Useage Guide at Sorcerers Place.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cihan · Post by **Cihan** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:46 pm

I thought of dualling thief to fighter because my main concern is being able to find and disarm traps. (Backstab will be good too) I think the party should have a thief to disarm traps, is it not the case? Can bards(Haer Dalis) do that also?

And by dualling to fighter can't I be the tank you speak of? Do dualled fighters have penalties compared to pure ones?

Thanks, it helped.

Reso · Post by **Reso** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:50 pm

Since you'll be using Viconia, Edwin and Sarevok it also makes sense to add Korgan. Also, I feel every game should be played with Imoen. Therefore, I'd suggest replacing Cernd and Haer'Dalis with Korgan and Imoen. I simply don't like Cernd; there are better (and more versatile) tanks and the three other healers are better (Jaheira, Anomen, Viconia), one of which you already have anyway. Haer'Dalis is a good character, however as Raven_Song mentioned he may take getting used to.

Also, I don't think dual-classing from a Thief is a bad idea, either. I only don't like to dual-class from Mage, Cleric and Druid classes. With Thieves, there comes a time in the game where you no longer need to keep gaining Thief skills. For instance, Imoen in a lot of cases already has enough skills to be sufficient. If I were you, I'd start with the Assassin or Swashbuckler kit and dual into a Fighter at around level 13. An alternative to this is taking a Fighter/Thief multi-class. That way, you can play as an Elf or Halfling to get Thieving bonuses (with 19dex) and will receive your High Level Abilities early on. That last point is particularly useful, as Thieves gain the Use Any Item special ability, which is one of the best things you can get in the game.

At the start of SoA you will be able to choose a kit for your Thief if you import the game or character. Therefore, if you plan to dual-class, start BG1 as a Human Thief. BG Tutu is the mod you want if you want kits with BG1. However, since I've never used it, I don't know how it affects how your character is imported into BG2.

Edit:-

I thought of dualling thief to fighter because my main concern is being able to find and disarm traps. (Backstab will be good too) I think the party should have a thief to disarm traps, is it not the case? Can bards(Haer Dalis) do that also?

And by dualling to fighter can't I be the tank you speak of? Do dualled fighters have penalties compared to pure ones?

No, Bards cannot disarm traps. Yeah, I think it's at the very least necessary to have a Thief for the early part of the game.

A Thief dualled into a Fighter is as capable a tank as a pure Fighter.

Bayle · Post by **Bayle** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:03 pm

Maybe you lack a little melee, you only have yourself (who is gonna be weak due to thief as first class), so maybe consider taking minsc along.

Concerning Cernd and Haer'dali i wouldn't consider them especially good, but thats not always important of course.

Theres a mod called bg1tutu, which allows you to play the BG1 game but with the engine from BG2. Meaning every feature of BG2 but the gameplay of BG1. you can have kits, better graphics and so on.

What level, i honestly dunno, but if your making a thief, and not a kit with bg1tutu, i'd take multiclass for sure.. Otherwise i'd make an assassin, get some backstab multipliers and then dual him.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:20 pm

Instead of playing a Thief dualled to a Fighter, I'd rather play a Fighter dualled to a Thief or a multi-class Fighter/Thief. If you're going to play all the way from BG1 to Throne of Bhaal, either of those will give you the most bang for the buck. A 6th or 7th Level Fighter dualled to a Thief is one of the most powerful characters you can play in BG1. Four or five proficiency points and a 5x backstab multiplier go together very well. Having a high level Thief in BG2 is nice because of the High Level Ability called Use Any Item, which is why I recommend a Fighter dualled to a Thief instead of a Thief dualled to a Fighter. On the other hand, the High Level Abilities from the warrior pool are also very powerful, which is why I recommend a multi-class Fighter/Thief.

I realize that you probably want to have continuity between BG1 and BG2, so you probably want to import your character from BG1 into BG2 exactly the way he is. However, I don't think it's a good idea. The game balance and the gameplay is a lot different in BG2, and you won't have the best character possible. For example, dualling from 5th Level is very effective in BG1, but it's almost worthless in BG2, so I wouldn't bother trying to import a character like that into BG2. I'd rather start from scratch and dual at 9th Level or even 13th level. In the end, he's still the same class in both games, right?

Onkel Bob · Post by **Onkel Bob** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:26 pm

Here's what I'd do:

If you want to use those characters because you like them then do it. It should be a fun party anyway.

Haer'Dalis and Cernd can easily tank early on. All they need are Stone Skin and Iron Skin respectively. They should already have access to those spells when you meet them.

Haer'Dalis can still tank fine later with spells and his abilities as a blade.

Cernd will never be that great a tank later on unless you install a certain part of the ease-of-use mod. However if you do he should be great again once he hits level 13. And he will always be a great summoner. And Insect Plague is one spell that's almost reason enough to bring a druid all on it's own.

Edwin should just hang back and toss as many area of effect spells as possible. He should also be protected by Skins at all times.

Viconia might be a weak link with her low hit points and her inability to cast any skins. However if you give her all the gear you can find that will increase her hit points, the best shield you can find for her and the Defender of Easthaven then she should be able to manage. Try and make sure she's not caught in her own Holy Smite spells. Edwin as well. Her control undead will come in handy to.

Your protagonist should dual at level 5 if you only want him to disarm and open locks. That's enough to have plenty of points. However in this case I'd dual him at level 10. This should give you enough points to spend to have solid scores in Find Traps, Open Locks, Hide in Shadows and move Silently. And I'd make him a Swashbuckler. Have him sneak around a lot. I don't think he'll really need the backstab multiplier if you have him go after weak targets. And you'll need the multiplier even less if the mage he just back-stabbed was just stunned by a certain katana...

I think there are some really evil strategies to try out with the party you're planning and if you ever have any real trouble pick up a 6th member that you feel could help you. Korgan or Minsc come to mind...

Cihan · Post by **Cihan** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:16 pm

Reso wrote:Since you'll be using Viconia, Edwin and Sarevok it also makes sense to add Korgan. Also, I feel every game should be played with Imoen. Therefore, I'd suggest replacing Cernd and Haer'Dalis with Korgan and Imoen. I simply don't like Cernd; there are better (and more versatile) tanks and the three other healers are better (Jaheira, Anomen, Viconia), one of which you already have anyway.

I have played with Korgan, and especially with my previous char half-orc barbarian he was very good at the fronline. However I would like to use my party in a more stealth-based manner, that's why I didn't include Korgan. But maybe I should reconsider this because Sarevok may not fit in that play also and we know Bruenor gets along with Drizzt pretty well.

I had Cernd because I would like to cast Druid spells. Jaheira comes to mind for that purpose but I like Cernd and I think he fits in an evil/neutral party better than Jaheira.

For Imoen, I also think that having Imoen always in the party is a good thing. But iirc she was good aligned and this was sufficient to keep her out at the first thought. However I still sometimes think I should include her.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:21 pm

Cihan wrote:I had Cernd because I would like to cast Druid spells. Jaheira comes to mind for that purpose but I like Cernd and I think he fits in an evil/neutral party better than Jaheira.

As Jaheira is neutral, too, why do you find Cernd more appropriate from this perspective?

Cihan · Post by **Cihan** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:30 pm

I don't know, I think the only reason Jaheira wasn't made good-aligned is the druid class' restriction. She acts like good-aligned.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:16 pm

Cihan wrote:I don't know, I think the only reason Jaheira wasn't made good-aligned is the druid class' restriction. She acts like good-aligned.

No offense, but in what sense? I'm really curious about your perception. Do you mean her dialog sounds good-aligned? I've seen no indication of this. And she complains when you become too "good," just as Cernd does.

Cihan · Post by **Cihan** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:42 pm

You may be right, and since I played with Jaheira little I very well might be wrong. I just felt that way (by her dialogs maybe).
Probably Jaheira might be more useful than Cernd, she will do better with cause x wounds-harm spells and such.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:45 pm

Cihan wrote:You may be right, and since I played with Jaheira little I very well might be wrong. I just felt that way (by her dialogs maybe).
Probably Jaheira might be more useful than Cernd, she will do better with cause x wounds-harm spells and such.

Well, she does have the ability to Raise Dead, which Cernd doesn't, and his shapeshifting skills require a turn before he can deploy them in battle, which slows him down. I think of Cernd of one of the "challenge" NPCs, like Nalia, for example, better to use on a second go-around when you want to try a party that requires more effort to win.

Raven_Song · Post by **Raven_Song** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:14 am

I simply don't like Cernd ... the three other healers are better (Jaheira, Anomen, Viconia),

I respectfully disagree. The only adavantge these characters have over Cernd is the ability to raise dead, which I think Cernd do eventually with certain HLAs (I might be wrong). However as a dedicted healer Cernd is second only to Viconia, as Jaheira and Anomen are both geared to more offensive roles and so are less likely to hve the spell slots available to dedicate to healing.

Concerning Cernd and Haer'dali i wouldn't consider them especially good, but thats not always important of course.

If played correctly they are equal to any other NPC.

No offense, but in what sense? I'm really curious about your perception. Do you mean her dialog sounds good-aligned? I've seen no indication of this. And she complains when you become too "good," just as Cernd does.

Actually Fable, Cihan is not the only one who thinks both VonDondu nd myself made a similar point in this thread...

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldu ... 81010.html

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:39 am

About when to dual I agree with Onkel Bob who suggest at level 5 or 10. At level5 swashbucklers get another AC,damage + thac0 boost while other thieves get the *3 backstab multiplier. In BG2 you'll have just enough skill points for disarming and lockpicking.

For reaching level 10 you get another swashbuckler boost, if you reach level 10 as thief you get 8 HP instead of 3 as fighter. A fighter level costs 250,000 XP on the long run, so 160,000 XP for 10 thief levels won't really slow your fighter progression. (You can even add another 60,000 XP for thief level 11 if you want more skill points or like setting traps). If you have the TotSC XPCap you can have 161,000 at the start of BG2 and dual immediately.

A disadvantadge is that you won't have thief skills for the dualing period, you need 750,000 XP for 11 fighter levels until you gain your thieving skills back, that's a long part of the game.

The advantadge in playing a thief dualclassed to fighter is that the swashbuckler and assassin kit bonusses are added, so you can do even more damage than a pure fighter in normal melee.
But you'll be missing about 50 hitpoints.

From the powergaming perspective any multiclass F/T is far superior through the whole game, especially the little races which get enormous saving throw bonusses. Both fighter and thief class don't gain much after level 13 except the HLAs and multiclasses get the most of them.
But you can beat the game with any character.

I also think dualing the other way around will also be more fun to you (if you don't want a powerful non-human multiclass). In BG1 you have Imoen, Montaron and Shar-Teel (both poweful,evil and available early), each of them has enough thief skills to take you through the game. As thief you get 2 shoots per round with a shortbow for 1-6 damage each, even as level 1 fighter you have 2.5 with a composite for 5-10 damage each and you'll have far better thac0, AC and more HP. With melee weapons the difference is even bigger, don't exspect the thief to hit much with horrible thac0 (you'll even miss many backstabs) and only 1 lousy attack per round.

If you dual to thief shortly after the starting dungeon in BG2 from fighter level 9 the dualing period will be very short since you need only 160,000 XP for thief level 10.
You'll have a full thief who has gained most of the fighter advantadges.
- hitpoints like a fighter
- 2 instead of 1 attack per round
- additional thac0 and damage bonusses for specialisation

I wouldn't bother too much about BG2 now. BG1 is a long game and you don't even know if you'll have the time and motivation to finish it yet. And your opinion about party composition might even change during this time.

Unlike in BG2 at normal level your hitpoints at level up are rolled randomly, so I recommend installing a mod for maximum HP at level up if you don't want your exported BG1 character to have far less HP than a newly created BG2 character.

You might even enjoy playing a thief so much that you'll decide to stay one in BG2. With the thac0, damage and AC bonusses a pure swashbuckler gets every 5 levels for the whole game you have nearly a fighter even without dualclassing and the assassins *7 backstab and poisoning can also be deadly without fighter levels.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:03 am

Raven_Song wrote:I respectfully disagree. The only adavantge these characters have over Cernd is the ability to raise dead, which I think Cernd do eventually with certain HLAs (I might be wrong).

I'm going out on a limb, here, but I don't think he can get that; and if he could, it would be so late in the game as to be useless from the perspective of SoA. That's not to say Cernd is bad; only he doesn't have one spell I consider extremely useful for a party. But it's certainly possible to play a party without anybody able to raise the dead.

Actually Fable, Cihan is not the only one who thinks both VonDondu nd myself made a similar point in this thread...

Yes, but I was asking him for his opinion, not yours.

Personally, I don't find Jaheira's dialog "good." That's why I asked him about this--because I keep hoping somebody's explanation for believing this will make sense to me. No offense, but so far, I haven't heard any, and that includes the thread you linked to. Each to their own, but I'm curious what others find there that I miss.

Raven_Song · Post by **Raven_Song** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:26 am

I'm going out on a limb, here, but I don't think he can get that; and if he could, it would be so late in the game as to be useless from the perspective of SoA.

Druids get access to the Mass Raise Dead HLA - at least according to Planetbaldursgate.

That's not to say Cernd is bad; only he doesn't have one spell I consider extremely useful for a party.

Insect Plague.

Personally, I don't find Jaheira's dialog "good." That's why I asked him about this--because I keep hoping somebody's explanation for believing this will make sense to me. No offense, but so far, I haven't heard any, and that includes the thread you linked to. Each to their own, but I'm curious what others find there that I miss.

Next time I play I'll right some stuff down so I can make my case.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:17 pm

My Two Cents

Cihan wrote:Hi everyone, i played SoA a little before and plan to play all the way from BG1 to ToB. I thought of a party like this in SoA. Is it ok? What are its weaknesses/strengths?

Me: Human thief, will dual class to fighter
Viconia
Haer Dalis
Cernd
Edwin

6th place will change due to NPC quests and i think of adding Sarevok in ToB.

I think your party's just fine:

- Cernd's druid spells should compliment Viconia's cleric spells, allowing access to most (all?) of the Divine spells that the game has to offer.

- Haer'Dalis should compliment Edwin's arcane arsenal, and he'll free you from needing points in Pick Pockets if you plan on having your party use that ability.

- Using the 6th slot to switch around NPCs is a great idea. Some characters have banter to add during their related quest, while some characters are required to initiate otherwise unobtainable quests. Now, some early experience rewards will be distributed a little wider, but you'll see more of the game.

- Lacking in tanks... maybe. Opinions vary with H'D & Cernd. I would think Cernd's werewolf gig was at least intended to be used as a tank, and I've read around here that H'D is the best tank around. Do some forum searching, and you'll get a WIDE range of opinions. Although I'm in agreement with Raven_Song: if played correctly they are equal to any other NPC.

Other thoughts:

- Yoshimo & Imoen, from at least the main story's perspective, is a good idea for anyone's first time thru the game. And iirc, Imoen is the only good-aligned NPC that won't leave if your rep gets low (iirc?).

- Haer'Dalis is even more interesting with Aerie in the group. Maybe save him for a subsequent time thru the game with Aerie.

- When it's all said and done, Korgan might be a good permanent choice for your 6th slot. His alignment fits the rest of the party, and he for sure would solve any tank issues. And when the time comes, switch Sarevok with whoever *you* decide is not pulling their weight.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:20 pm

Raven_Song wrote:Druids get access to the Mass Raise Dead HLA - at least according to Planetbaldursgate.

But as I wrote above, it's really very late, then, and either shows up in ToB or late modded SoA.

Insect Plague.

That's nice, but you appear to have added your pair of forints without reading one more sentence, that makes them less than relevant:

That's not to say Cernd is bad; only he doesn't have one spell I consider extremely useful for a party. But it's certainly possible to play a party without anybody able to raise the dead.

In other words, I consider raising the dead one extremely useful spell for a party, but it's certainly possible to have a party that doesn't include it.

As for Insect Plague, Jaheira has it, too.