circumcision

[fable]

Strange piece of reading. At least one of their statements is demonstrably inaccurate: male circumcision was not introduced into English-speaking countries in the late 1800s to help prevent masturbation, but has always been part of the thriving English Jewish subculture, where it is part of a ritual occurring during infancy. Second, the men who referred to the effects of diminished penile sensitivity following circumcision were al circumcised as adults. The authors of the study appear not to have done (or quoted) any long term study of penile nerve endings following infantile circumcision, through to adulthood, which could produce a very different result.

Finally, their results are severely flawed because they don't take into account culture. Most male circumcision in Europe and the Americas occur in religious subcultures, such as Judism. Attempts to define the number of partners, positive postcoital feelings, etc, without including the subcultural factor basically throws out the results. There was a humorous tv ad a number of years ago made by the great Stan Freeburg, stating in large whilte print against a black background that 9 out of 10 doctors preferred Chun King food after a day at work. It then showed 9 grinning Oriental men, and an annoyed Stan Freeburg, all dressed as doctors. My point is that context isn't everything, but it certainly counts a good deal.

Oh, for the record, I loathe the idea of circumcision under any situation, save one where infected tissue is the cause of the operation.

[Sean The Owner]

your points are definetly true, althought they did not take into account a few things, and did not have much of long-term research it is still a good essay(if thats what youd call it)

i agree with you on the circumcision part, that it is bad unless it is because of infected tissue, in which case...how could you complain about helping someone?

[fable]

your points are definetly true, althought they did not take into account a few things, and did not have much of long-term research it is still a good essay(if thats what youd call it)

We'll just have to disagree about this one. Since both the research and methodology are severely flawed, I'd throw out the study's conclusions altogether. After all, if they're going to ignore culture, they would get very different results from polls run in New York City or Salt Lake City.

[Sean The Owner]

We'll just have to disagree about this one. Since both the research and methodology are severely flawed, I'd throw out the study's conclusions altogether. After all, if they're going to ignore culture, they would get very different results from polls run in New York City or Salt Lake City.

very true, but they must have done some research to come up with those results, and they did the survey, although it could be biased we cant just assume it is...or isnt but it was written fairly well, so it cant have been an unintelligent person writing it

[PyroDrew]

Fable is right. Since the research and methodology are severely flawed the conclusions and study are worthless. The only "good essay" points it would receive would be for grammar and spelling. I found this sentence to be particularly funny...

Women having sexual experience with both circumcised and anatomically complete partners were recruited through classified advertisements in magazines and an announcement in an anti-circumcision newletter

:laugh:

Are white men preferred by women over black men? Lets ask unbias readers of a KKK newsletter too.
Do men prefer women who are against abortion? Lets seek those who subscribe to a pro-life newsletter to find the answer.

[Galuf the Dwarf]

i wasnt because my mom watched a baby get circumcised and saw the look of pain on their face and just said "no, im not putting my sons through that, its too cruel"

My mother's words, almost exactly.

[Sean The Owner]

Fable is right. Since the research and methodology are severely flawed the conclusions and study are worthless. The only "good essay" points it would receive would be for grammar and spelling. I found this sentence to be particularly funny...

Women having sexual experience with both circumcised and anatomically complete partners were recruited through classified advertisements in magazines and an announcement in an anti-circumcision newletter

so you are saying because it was in an anti-circumcision newsletter all of a sudden no one BUT anti-circumcision people read it? if that were true, it would not make much money...you are trying to convince other people that circumcision is bad, not tell already anti-circumcision people why it is bad, because they wouldnt just suddenly be like..."im bored today i think im going to hate circumcision," theyd already know about it before hating it...

My mother's words, almost exactly.

atleast some mothers think like that

[PyroDrew]

so you are saying because it was in an anti-circumcision newsletter all of a sudden no one BUT anti-circumcision people read it?

Strawman. I never said that. More importantly, I'm sure some blacks have read some KKK newsletters too, but that doesn't mean any studies/polls in KKK newsletters are representative of the public.

you are trying to convince other people that circumcision is bad, not tell already anti-circumcision people why it is bad, because they wouldnt just suddenly be like..."im bored today i think im going to hate circumcision," theyd already know about it before hating it...

Anti-circumcision advocates want to hear more reasons and new studies why circumcisions are bad so they can validate their beliefs and backup their claims in debates. It doesn't matter whether it's circumcision, religion, politics or a favorite pop music band... the newsletters are there to tell them what they want to hear and for them to "spread the word" with their "evidence". The best way to convince other people that xyz is bad is to have "xyz is bad" advocates parrot what you write and spread it for you. I've seen the "circumcision is better" advocates with their threads links and studies too. I have no desire to change your mind regarding circumcision, but as Fabel tried to explain to you this study is no good.

[Sean The Owner]

Strawman. I never said that. More importantly, I'm sure some blacks have read some KKK newsletters too, but that doesn't mean any studies/polls in KKK newsletters are representative of the public.

but complete racism is a different, i know you are comparing but there will be a lot more pro-circumcision people reading an anti-circumcision newsletter than black people reading a KKK magazine, simply because the KKK is hatred and racism, while circumcision is not discrimanatory

but as Fabel tried to explain to you this study is no good.

ok i do see your point, but that would mean you will never find accurate results on this topic...

[fable]

ok i do see your point, but that would mean you will never find accurate results on this topic...

Which is better: believing a lie, or agreeing that one lacks sufficiently accurate information to make an informed decision on a given topic?

[PyroDrew]

but complete racism is a different, i know you are comparing but there will be a lot more pro-circumcision people reading an anti-circumcision newsletter than black people reading a KKK magazine, simply because the KKK is hatred and racism, while circumcision is not discrimanatory

They don't have to be black, just anti-KKK.
Further, racism is a much hotter and volitile topic and based on that alone I would wager that generates more readers. Google pulls up 5,610,000 links for "circumcision"... and for "anti-circumcision" only 37,400. "KKK" gets 22,400,000 links... racism comes in 41,800,000.

ok i do see your point, but that would mean you will never find accurate results on this topic...

There will always usually be some bias in a study so it's a matter of minimizing the bias as much as possible and then taking the results with a grain of salt with other valid scientific research. In the study that was provided, not only did they not take into account cultural differences as Fable mentioned, but they deliberately tainted the sample by advertising in an anti-circumcision newsletter. Perhaps the ad space in all the Jewish newsletters were too expensive?

[Greg.]

I gather there is actually a significant movement out there of men who feel angry about having been given the surgery without their consent, and they are actively attempting to restore their foreskins.

I remember there was a series about ancient surgery, and a lot of Jews becoming Roman citizens had surgery done ro restore the foreskin...

[Sean The Owner]

I remember there was a series about ancient surgery, and a lot of Jews becoming Roman citizens had surgery done ro restore the foreskin...

the mention of Rome made me think of something...when people made statues of gods and emperors, leaders, etc. were they circumcised or not? the gods one makes me wonder the most seeing how they werent copying a person, they were copying a description...

[Vicsun]

the mention of Rome made me think of something...when people made statues of gods and emperors, leaders, etc. were they circumcised or not? the gods one makes me wonder the most seeing how they werent copying a person, they were copying a description...

After a close and careful inspection of the genitals of Michelangelo's David, I can safely say that the statue does not display a circumcised penis, which is rather strange as King David, who the statue is thought to represent, was most certainly circumcised. When I skimmed through the Wikipedia article on the topic, it claimed that Michelangelo was trying to emulate the ancient Greek aesthetic ideals (which is certainly plausible for a Renaissance sculptor), and since they considered a circumcised penis to be a mutilated penis Michelangelo sculpted David along with some foreskin he didn't actually have.

So, to answer your question; if the Wikipedia article is to be trusted neither the ancient Greek nor Renaissance sculptors sculpted statues depicting circumcised penises.

[Sean The Owner]

So, to answer your question; if the Wikipedia article is to be trusted neither the ancient Greek nor Renaissance sculptors sculpted statues depicting circumcised penises.

alright thanks, that was making me think for quite a while and i had no idea where id find a picture big enough to be able to tell whether it was circumcised or not. thats interesting though, how they call it "mutilated"

[Moonbiter]

I don't know if I should reply to a post about circumcision posted by a person with a tagline that reads: "anyone want to see some pics i made while i was bored? SeanTheOwner on deviantART ":laugh: :laugh: but here goes: I got circumcized at the age of 35(!) for numerous reasons including health amd cleanliness, and I have no regrets. In fact I'm a bit angered by my parents and their anti-religion bias, which prevented them from doing so back when I was a wee sprog. Oh, and no! Religion was not an issue for me, and never will be.

[Sean The Owner]

I don't know if I should reply to a post about circumcision posted by a person with a tagline that reads: "anyone want to see some pics i made while i was bored? SeanTheOwner on deviantART ":laugh: :laugh: but here goes: I got circumcized at the age of 35(!) for numerous reasons including health amd cleanliness, and I have no regrets. In fact I'm a bit angered by my parents and their anti-religion bias, which prevented them from doing so back when I was a wee sprog. Oh, and no! Religion was not an issue for me, and never will be.

lol funny...im not bored THAT often anymore...but i made like 10 in a day, and OMG were my eyes hurting lol...anyways...

see? this is the reason why i think they shouldnt circumcise until the person is old enough to make their own decision...some people that were circumcised are mad at their parents, and some are mad at their parents because they werent circumcised...if only they would change it so you had your own choice what your body looked like...