rookie in 3E rules seek some help

[karlstegger]

Hi everybody...

Newbie here...

I just installed IWD II and want to start playing asap I have been playing BG, BGII and IWD many times (just loooooved BG2) and are quite familiar with these games, tactics etc. These are, however, 2E rules games and I have about zero experience with 3E rules...so I am looking for some help about my starting party, which skills and feats to choose, which classes suits the various races best and things like that...Not because I am lazy but for now I only plan to play through the game one time and unfortunately atm I don't have time for 4-5 restarts after playing through 1/3 of the game ... (NWN II coming soon and all that)

Before flaming me, yes I have been reading the various threads about starting parties but I want my party to suit my style of play and none of the threads I read matched that entirely...

So what kind of party (6 characters) do I want?

1:
I like a bit of a traditionel rpg-party (maybe that doesn't fit IWD II and 3E too well?). By that I mean have never been fond of multiclassing too much, although I have nothing agains a fighter/cleric, fighter/thief, fighter/mage or something like that(yes a bit traditionel). I see the advantages of giving a sorceror some paladin levels and all that but it's not what I'm looking for...at least in this my first IWD2 game... Also don't want a magic using dwarf, a gnome barbarian etc...just examples. I'm not a powergamer so don't want stats 20/3-5..but would like to hear some suggestions for more realistic stats....and would that make the game a lot harder??

2:
Alignment-wise I want a kind of good/neutral mixed party, perhaps 1 or max 2 evil..preferably only one.

3:
Races....same as 2, I like to mix the races. Definately want a drow in my party (even if It means I have to include an evil character)

4:
Weapons/classes. Also a mix of some melee tanks, some adept spell casting and a couple of characters using ranged weapons.

5:
Skills and feats. This is my biggest concern. I have absolutely no idea which ones are good and which are bad choices....really looking for some help here!

6:
The game. I want to play at normal difficulty and don't want to go for HOF after finishing normal mode


This should about cover it....really hope some of the more experienced gamers will take their time to help me so I can get off to a good start...I know it's a lot to ask but I'd really like to get off to a good start.

Oh btw, i prefer the game is a bit harder in the beginning than in the end...hereby i mean that I don't want to choose too many fighters for making the game easy early on and the end up lacking competent magic in the end, hence making the last chapter(s) too difficult....

Last question...the pre-generated parties...are they worth playing??


Lars

[RTP]

You asked a lot of very interesting questions.

And before I answer them, I just want to ask you something.

Do you want me (or someone else) to play trough the game for you?
Since you obviously don't have the time (or will) for it, I would be glad to help you with it.
And I can tell you what is happening along the way (maybe even email you couple of the save states just before some of the bosses, and I even have this quick save just after I defeted last boss(es) in the game, so all you have to do is exit the screen, would that be OK for you?).

[karlstegger]

You asked a lot of very interesting questions.

And before I answer them, I just want to ask you something.

Do you want me (or someone else) to play trough the game for you?
Since you obviously don't have the time (or will) for it, I would be glad to help you with it.
And I can tell you what is happening along the way (maybe even email you couple of the save states just before some of the bosses, and I even have this quick save just after I defeted last boss(es) in the game, so all you have to do is exit the screen, would that be OK for you?).

Thx for your very sarcastic answer.... I could sink down to your level but i won't. I thought this board was more serious, hope it's only you who's trying to prove me wrong....

Just to make sure that not everybody misunderstand me (maybe I expressed myself in an unclear way before, sorry if that's the case), I DO have the time and I definately have the will to play through the game.... But for a guy who has a family and work, I have to spend many weeks (months?) completing the game, that's why it's not easy playing it over and over....hence I seek some help....but only help for getting started - of course not for playing the entire game, I can take care of that myself.

Lars

[RTP]

There was a sarcasm in the the question, but it also wasn't a rethorical one.
I meen, you just asked us to tell you everything about the game! And that's a very short question with an insanely large answer! I hope you understand my sarcasm!
:laugh:

It would be easier for us all if you just read the manuals (we'll give you the links, if you didn't get them with the game; manuals, I mean) if you have some questions about the rules.

[QUOTE=karlstegger]
2:
Alignment-wise I want a kind of good/neutral mixed party, perhaps 1 or max 2 evil..preferably only one.
[/QUOTE]
aligments make apsolutly no difference in the game (unless you're playing paladin or a monk, because they don't take rewards after finishing quests)
In this game, aligments are just letters.

[QUOTE=karlstegger]
3:
Races....same as 2, I like to mix the races. Definately want a drow in my party (even if It means I have to include an evil character)
[/QUOTE]
Yes. We all had dual-wielding, CG Drow in the party when we first played IWD2.
You may also. :laugh:


[QUOTE=karlstegger]
6:
The game. I want to play at normal difficulty and don't want to go for HOF after finishing normal mode
[/QUOTE]
yeah, ok. that's fine.


[QUOTE=karlstegger]
Last question...the pre-generated parties...are they worth playing??
[/QUOTE]
last answer (basically, the answer to all of your questions): Yes they're very good, and actualy, if you do not know how to create a quality party (or just want to avoid the hassle of it), just take one of those.
Those parties are very balanced and they're not powergaming type (which you said you didn't want)

as for manuals... (hold on, let me try to find them on the net.... somewhere... will update)

[RTP]

manuals on sorcerer's.net

Sorcerer's place is a very good site for IWD2 (very good=that's still alive)
you can find anything and everything there.

[karlstegger]

thanks..

OK thanks for the answers RTP

Maybe I took your sarcasm a little too serious - my bad....

To cut it short, yes i know how to create a party, I know tactics and I have spent tons of hours playing bioware rpg's... that's not my problem.

Only thing I really haven't tried before is the 3E rules....so basically I would like some advice regarding skills and feats as i have no knowledge hereof. And where to ask if not guys who have played the game before?


All the other information was more listed to give information about my playing style as that perhaps affects which skills to choose and which not to choose...

Or aren't choosing the right skills/feats a decisive factor in this game after all?

Apart from that - I've read in other threads that at least a dedicated cleric and mage/sorcerer is pretty important in IWD 2 right? IWD for example was pretty easy without too much use of magic...

I'll try take a look at sorcerer's place also.... thanks again.

Lars

[Magrus]

If you want to know about specific feats and skills, ask specific questions. I'm not sure if you realize this, but the rules for 3rd edition DnD fill enough books to fill more than a shopping cart at your local grocery store. Asking for general help on for a system like that is kind of like saying "Tell me about history." Your best bet is probably to post what you think you would enjoy playing, and asking if there are any pointers people might have.

There are many ways you can build just a single class fighter, let alone the mix of classes you might add with fighter. You could go for a lightly armored archer, or a heavily armore knight, or a guy with two weapons, or a guy with a very large axe. That is just one class, and the feat and skill set up differs for all of them.

[Jelaweb]

One thing I would like to mention is that you would be missing out on one of the strengths of the 3e rule system by not experimenting with multi-classing (stick to BG2 if your don't like it!). If powergaming is your thing (which it should NOT be, as a BG2 fan), then insane multi-classing is the key to the most powerful characters.

IWD2 differs from BG2 - mainly you face far more enemies in a single battle. This means your spellcasters are far more important to make each battle managable. Of course, you can keep the challenge by not having any spellcasters at all - it is (difficult but) possible to complete the game in normal mode with none.
However, when you get to HoF mode, the spellcasters and all that "insane" multi-classing becomes FAR more important, because it is pretty much "IWD2 for powergamers"...

As for feats, arcane spellcasters are best off with the four "energy" feats (Aegis of Rime, Aquae Mortis, Scion of Storms & Spirit of Flame), and the Spell Focus feats (Transmutation is best for druids). Bards are good with Lingering Song. For "fighter" type characters, you have the many choices:
1) Dual-wielding - Two-Weapon Fighting & Ambidexterity (maybe Weapon Finesse if the DEX is higher than STR)
2) Defensive (high AC) - Expertise and Dodge
3) Offense (high damage) - Power Attack and Cleave 1
4) Ranged - Rapid Shot & Precise Shot

All other feats are your choice. It is PURELY a matter of choice. Some people say some feats are useful, others will say those same feats are useless. Except for Improved Initiative (bugged) and Forester - ALL will say these are pointless.
It comes down to experience. Once you have played the game, you will know that some feats can be crossed off immediately either because they never get used, or are used rarely.

Skills: Concentration for ALL spellcasters, Spellcraft for wizards (all other spellcasters must have at least 10 for the "energy" feats), Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate for your diplomat(s) - the rest is up to you. But it is best to specialize one character in one thing, rather than the entire party (do you want all your party to be good at alchemy, for example?)

Alignment can affect small parts of the game in certain places, but most of the time it is like your paper-doll - just cosmetics.

That is about it - just play the damn game!

[kmonster]

3e favours multiclassing far less than 2e. You don't get other levels that cheap. You could add 9 fighter levels in 2e for less than a mage level, fighter9/mage19 needed less XP than a mage 20, but if you add 9 fighter levels in IWD2 to a mage you you'll have a fighter9/mage8 at the end instead of a mage 17. You can imagine how well level4 spells will work in combat when you are supposed to be able to cast level 9 spells.
Multiclassed spellcasters are crippled spellcasters. You want your main casters to be able to cast spells as high level as possible as fast as possible.
The only class which doesn't suffer serious drawbacks from multiclassing is fighter, they actually benefit from 3 paladin levels.
Casters loose the ability to cast high level spells, thieves extra sneak attack damage, monks nearly everything ...

But as long as you have a pure cleric (shield dwarves fit perfectly) and a pure sorcerer in your party the game shouldn't be too hard.
The classes are quite balanced, each class has its advantadges and disadvantadges.

One suggestion:

Human Sorcerer
Dwarf Cleric (Battleguard)
Drow Bard
Aasimar Paladin3/Fighter x
Human Druid
Human Rogue1/Transmuter x

About feats:
Improved initiative doesn't work, feats which only raise skills, saves or HP by a bit are usually not the best ones. Weapon specialisation isn't very good either, you only gain +1 attack bonus for only one weapon.
Fighting with two weapons isn't really useful, you can do far damage with 2-handed weapons.
Rapid shot is as good as ambidextrerity and 2-weapon fighting combined while wearing a shield, every character should have at least 13 dex for this.

Wizards and sorcerers benefit most from greater spell focus evocation and GSF enchantment, later they can take GSF necromancy and the elemental feats like spirt of flame. Druids need GSF transmutation the most at the beginning.
Bards should take lingering song and GSF enchantment.

My suggestion:
Consider which party you want to play with for having the most fun, introduce your 6 characters to us and you will get a lot of advice for optimizing them.

[karlstegger]

ok let's party

Thx for all the answers. Great help although the different opinions of multiclassing confused me a bit

KMONSTER you advice me to list my party here so I do this below. After reading more posts/guides about the game I have decided to change my original idea and try a little powergaming and some more multiclassing....but still I emphasize RGP.

It goes something like this:


1 - TANK:
Half-Orc Fighter 4/Barbarian X
STR 20, DEX 16, CON 18, INT 1, WIS 18, CHA 1
Skills: Intimidation (none of the skills I could choose seemed like obvious chooices to me)
Feats: 2 of Dodge, Power attack, Great swords (want him to wield 2H sword)



2 - DEDICATED MAGIC USER:
Human Sorcerer
STR 8, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 18
(have som doubt here but the game lists CON as a good choice for a sorcerer)
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Alchemy)
Feats: SF:Evocation & 1 of Spell Penetration, Courteous Magocracy,Discipline



3 - TANK/HEALER/BACK UP SPELLS
Half-Elf Monk 3/Druid X
STR 12, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 18, CHA 3
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Move Silently
Feats: Expertise

Granted, I "stole" this character from some guide I read. But I really liked this build and think it could be great fun to play with lots of possibilities (high level druid spells, shapechange comes to mind). I thought about Taking some barbarian levels instead of monk....what would be the wisest?

And how good indeed would this character serve as tank? I mean is shape change powerful in IWD II?



4 - ROGUE, LORE, (DIPLOMAT?), BACK UP SPELLS/BOW
Halfling Rogue 3-6/Bard X
STR 8, DEX 20, CON 10*, INT 10*, WIS 10*, CHA 18
(Not sure how to best distribute con, int & wis. As I see she doesn't need high wis as she won't be in front line.... but am I overlooking something?)
Skills: Pick Pocket, Open Lock, Knowledge Arcana, (Bluff)
Feats: Bow, Rapid Shot



5 - DEDICATED PRIEST (DIPLOMAT)
Human Battleguard of Tempus
STR 13, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 3, WIS 18, CHA 18
Skills: Concentration, ? (does Spellcraft help a cleric??) if not I'd go for Diplomacy
Feats: SF:Enchantment, Courteous Magocracy...hmm, overlooking something useful?



6 - RANGED ATTACK, ROGUE, ASSASSIN
Drow Rogue 3, Fighter X
STR 14, DEX 20, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 5
Skills: Search, Move Silently, Hide, Disable Device
Feats: hmm...originally I wanted the dual-wielding drow (yeah know what you're thinking...but it's not him ) to serve as some kind of an assassin. So I'd go for Ambidexterity, 2 weapon fighting. But KMONSTER advices no dualwielding. What would be the better choice for a dex fighter: Raise INT to 13 and lower WIS in order to get Finesse? dualwield or 1 weapon only?


BTW, none of you mention the following feats: Combat Casting, Spell Penetration, Courteous Magocracy..are they worth it?

The party isn't final yet so any hints,criticism, advice would be welcome...in fact any comments would be welcome I would like to keep it almost like this but of course I would like you guys to point out, if I have made som obvious mistakes that block for nice skills/feats or even for multiclassing later on.

Toying with some ideas of swapping my half-orc for a paladin/fighter...Or maybe give my cleric two paladin levels before making him a cleric.


Anyway...thanks again for your help so far...

Lars

[Magrus]

Suggestions:

# 3 can be a problem if not played properly. First of all, you will lack the HP to take place as the party decoy, or the damage dealing prowess of the party's hard hitter. Second, you will be multi-classing your caster, making them less powerful as a healer. However, as a secondary caster functioning as a healer first and foremost, you don't necessarily need a high level. If you are going with a barbarian/fighter as your tank, which is a good choice I think, you don't need the druid really, as the only truly, completely useful spell they get that is useful all around that clerics do not would be Barkskin. Spending levels just to get that really would not be worth it.

I will suggest something else. Blend #3, 4 and #6 into two characters. Make a Deep Gnome monk/rogue assassin. Switch equally between monk of the old order/rogue, meaning take Rogue first in order to get the higher amount of skills first off, that's big, making sure you are lawful neutral or lawful evil at creation. THEN take monk. Then alternate between the two every level. This will allow you to every level invest in hide and move silently, and every other level invest in Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, and whatever else you may have points leftover for that you want. The reason I say Deep Gnome, is that you want a tank, and they give Spell Resitance, +4 to AC, and are the only race to give a bonus to Wisdom. At first level, you can, if you really choose to, make a character that starts out as a Deep Gnome monk that has max Dex and Wis and ends up with a 24 AC without equipment or feats. Making the character untouchable by any of the foes you will meet except for boss type enemies until you have leveled a few times without them scoring a natural 20. Even if this character has a low strength and cannot hit, by the time that you reach level 8, your other party members may be at level 11 instead, but you can draw targets to you and keep them busy attacking you and missing.

This will give you a sneaky character, that can open locks, disarm traps, and eventually, heal himself with monk abilities, fight unarmed, evasion, uncanny dodge, and sneak attacks. You should be able to sneak through a group of people, hammer on the mage or cleric that is a big threat and deal sneak attack damage, and then have your Sorc fire off area blasting spells. If you have say, 18 Dex, and 4 levels of both Rogue and Monk, as well as the bonus of +1 to all saves from being a Deep Gnome, your Ref save should be 4+4+4+1=+13. Meaning, you should easily evade any fireballs dropped around you as you draw enemies to swarm around you, trying to kill you. Keeping your Int above 13, you can take Expertise, and instead of hitting and killing them, simply keep them off of you until help arrives.

On to the next one of combining three characters into two:

Having two characters with low level rogue abilities can be useful, but isn't necessary, or necessarily good. With the above character, you combine the self-sufficient decoy and defensive tank, lock opener, trap disarmer, and sneaky bastard all into one. Since you want a character that can sneak and cast spells, why not try a elf/half-elf ranger/bard? This character can have 2 levels of ranger to get some combat prowess, be able to use a bow, and then switch to bard to get some spells and progress. You could sing, or cast spells to improve combat/defense abilities of your party members, and shoot arrows when not casting. Lingering Song will allow you to sing, and cast spells while the song is in effect, or fire your bow. Rapid shot would be a good feat to have. Keeping your Dex and Cha high are the most important things. Everything else really isn't all that important, although a high Int or Con will give you more skills and HP. Keep in mind, Bards can heal if you pick the Cure spells as a spell known, so, grab Cure Light Wounds and Cure Moderate wounds, and you have your backup healer to keep your cleric alive.

This frees up a slot to be used as a melee power house, or a caster, or some other character that just feels fun to play. Personally, I prefer two or three "powergaming" characters in a game to allow me to make one or two characters that are just goofy and fun, and don't do a whole lot. That's just me though. Generally, 2 or 3 of my party carry the rest of the pary, while the others are punching bags for the orc hordes that swarm everyone.

[kmonster]

1) About skills:
Intimidate is wasted, since you get a -5 penalty for 1 cha, you'd need 9 skill points to be as good as a character with 18 cha and 0 points in intimidate.
The powergaming choice would be taking 4 points in concentration for being able to select the "maximized attacks" feat, but is it really worth it ?
I'd consider taking wilderness lore since you already have 18 wis, start as barbarian since they get it as class skill. Add the "wilderness lore" symbol to your quickbar, the text descriptions of the areas you get for using it can help the roleplaying feeling. You don't need very high WL however since you can just retry if a check fails, so you can even combine WL with concentration. (I'd start with 4 points in WL.)
When levelling you can save 1 skill point for the next level up by the way.
But whatever skills you take for this character, it won't make a big difference. Better think of optimizing the other characters.




2) CON is useful for the HP and concentration checks.
But your high WIS is wasted. 8 or 10 is more than enough.
Back ground sorcerers are hardly ever targeted by hold or charm spells (unlike front line fighters) and will saves are the strong sorcerer saves anyway. Better increase CON to 18 and maybe DEX (+1 AC) or INT(+1 skill point).

Skills: I'd also take knowledge(arcana). Increase concentration as much as possible.

Feats: Spell penetration isn't worth it. There are hardly any enemies with MR.
I also wouldn't take discipline.You don't need better will saves and and if you spend enough skill points in concentration you won't get interrupted anyway.
I wouldn't take courteous magrocracy either. Spellcraft can be raised enough with skill points and I'd rather make the rogue/bard the diplomat, since bluff, diplomacy and intimidate are cross-class skills for sorcerers.
Better take mercantile background for better buying and selling. Or take GSF evocation for even harder saves.
Charm or chaos spells are nearly impossible to resist with GSF enchantment.
GSF necromancy can make the level 7 spell finger of death nearly always deadly later. "Spirit of flame" and the other elemental feats are also great (both offensive and defensive) once you can take them.




3.) Druidic shapechanges usually set strength, dex, con and AC to a certain value, set a default weapon for the claws and add 1 attack/round. They are not as powerful as well equipped fighters however. (Who would take a fighter or barbarian if this was the case ?)
With 3 monk levels you can forget the high level spells, 3 spellcaster levels make a big difference.
1 Barbarian level will grant access to all weapons and higher speed, barbarian rage will be useless since it doesn't stack with "bull's strength" or "champion's strength". Start with druid skillpoints if you want to multiclass.
I'd keep the druid pure, you won't be able to cast level 9 spells else.

Half-elf is not a good race, the extra feat and skillpoints humans get are far more useful. Pure elf would also be better than HE. The "bow" feat helps a lot in the beginning.

10 int is enough for getting 2 skill points/level as non-human, humans don't even need that much. Better raise strength or con instead. You just need 10 (int modifier included) spellcraft for the elemental feats and with high dex you can even sneak very well without spending skill points.

About feats: Most druid spells are transmutation spells, so GSF transmutation helps a lot. There are also some evocation spells and you can benefit from GSF necromancy greatly once you reach level 15 and can cast "finger of death".
But the biggest druidic strength is the "static charge" spell. Cast as many as possible of them in a row, shapechange to polar or dire bear and tear your enemies apart. I always selected my druid for the difficult battles only one party member could fight. Bosses are also very vulnerable to static charge.
For this tactic to work perfectly you need the "GSF transmutation" and "scion of storms" feats.
I'd take "rapid shot" at the beginning but don't waste feats for extra shapes.




4) If you multiclass start with rogue for the extra skill points.
But I don't see a reason to take rogue levels at all. Everything you want to do with this character can be done by a pure bard as well, with high dex lockpicking can be handled as cross-class skill if you don't want to bash open the chests. Bard levels help more, especially for supporting your sorc who needs help for casting important buffing spells like "cat's grace", "eagle's splendor", "emotion: courage" and "improved invisibility".

Skills: I would leave "knowledge arcana" to the sorcerer and make this character your diplomat. You might have to raise int a bit.
Taking a human for extra skill points and relieving the sorc from "mercantile background" is worth considering.

Feats: Lingering song (!!!), GSF enchantment (nearly all offensive bard spells are enchantment spells), rapid shot.



5) CHA is nearly useless for a cleric, I'd rather take 1 than 18. The low int won't allow to spend enough skill points to become a great diplomat, better leave this to your bard and sorc.
The main cleric task is buffing and summoning before and healing after combat, during combat he has to do physical damage and survive.
13 strength is hardly enough to wear heavy armor, 12 dex doesn't even allow "rapid shot" which is a pity because of the great throwing axes you'll find, 12 con leaves the cleric vulnerable.
A dwarf would be far superior because of his bonusses. I'd create one with 18-16-20-3-18-1. Such a character can do great damage both as melee greataxe fighter or axe thrower.

Skills: concentration

Feats: Rapid shot
Clerics hardly cast any offensive spell with saving throws, so spell focusses are pretty much wasted. And forget "Courteous Magocracy". I'd rather take combat feats like "improved critical".




6) Dualwielding is doable, you'll just have to waste 2 feats and still do far less damage than with 2-handed weapons. But you don't need perfect characters in order to defeat the game.
Weapon finesse will only improve your hit chance, not your damage. Strength can be easily raised by bull's strength or champion's strength, while your dex modifier is limited unless you want to go without armor.
You will get an XP penalty with this character because neither rogue nor fighter is a favourite class.

There's no need to get wis that high, drow get both MR and +2 save vs spells. Better raise strength for bigger damage.
For doing maximal sneak attack damage you need high strength and as many rogue levels as possible.
For ranged attacks fighter levels are better.
A compromise would be a fighter4/rogue x with stats like 18-18-16-14-9-5 who mastered a 2-handed weapon and missile weapon. He could do enormous backstab damage with his axe/halberd/greatsword without having to get too close and shoot for much damage from afar if required. The high int will allow him to spend enough skill points to sneak even in full plate and do the thieving tasks perfectly.
But I guess you would have the most fun with a pure rogue dualwielding shortswords and using a bow. But make him strong else he'll deal out only pathetic damage.




Combat Casting, Spell Penetration, Courteous Magocracy..are not worth it IMHO.
Adding paladin levels will only cripple your cleric, if you want paladin levels I'd create an aasimar paladin3/fighter x with stats 18-13-18-3-8-20. A pure aasimar or drow paladin can do more damage because of "holy smite" and the "holy power" spell but requires more micromanaging.
With "eagle's splendor" you can get 24 cha which gives +7 to AC and all saves.

Crossbows are nice at the start but even a level 30 fighter with rapid shot can't get more than 1 attack/round with a normal crossbow, so don't waste feats for them.
A level4 sorc with 19 cha and a lucky eagle's splendor (+5 cha) cast on him has +7 in all diplomacy skills even without spending a single points in them. You don't need more very often.

[Jelaweb]

As I said before, feats are a matter of choice - I would disagree with kmonster for Mercentile Background (I never play with more than 4 characters, so money never seems to be a problem) and Combat Casting (I probably use spellcasting in a different way to kmonster - my decoy and damage tanks are both Cleric/Wizard builds, e.g. the decoy has Spirit of Flame and Sunfire, and as I am in HoF mode, those Mirror Images tend to run out quickly!). Other than that, kmonster is pretty much spot on for feats.

"Pedants Corner"

It is wrong to say that clerics cast hardly any attack spells. It is true they cast less with wizards and sorcerers, but here are a few numbers of spells that require a saving throw:

Enchantment: 6-8 (Bane cast 11)
Evocation: 6-8 (Lathander, Selune and Talos cast 10/11)
Necromancy: 10-13
Transmutation: 3-4

For an everyday cleric, the only (G)SF feat that would make a real difference is Necromancy - cleric domain spells will bump up other schools. When you consider that a druid only has 10 Transmutation "attack" spells (and 11 Evocation), then saying "druids should have this but clerics should not have that" is not really right. However, all this depends on which attack spells you use.
It would be fair to say that the (G)SF feats are wasted on Paladins and Rangers.

With "eagle's splendor" you can get 24 cha which gives +7 to AC and all saves.

I tried a paladin once and did not get an AC bonus, despite a decent CHA score. Is the manual wrong or is my game bugged? (the D&D 3e rules do not mention an AC boost and the manual has other errors in it as well, so I'm guessing that it is not a bug)

[kmonster]

I know this shouldn't be so according to 3E rules and the manual,
but when I played the game (official patch patch but no mods) I was sure that charisma effected AC for my fighter/paladin. Maybe you need a certain number of paladin levels for this to work or I'm totally wrong.

The fact that clerics can cast many offensive spells doesn't mean they should do it often.
About the usefulness of taking GSF necromancy with a battleguard:

"Harm", "slay living" and "destruction" create a weapon in the caster's hand which has a certain difficulty class to save against. This save is not affected by GSF necromancy or the wisdom modifier at all.
The spells which benefit from GSF necromancy are just not worth memorizing if you consider how many attacks you can get in during the casting time or which other spells you get at this level.

It's similar with the other spell schools. Instead of casting those offensive spells in combat you can use your throwing axe several times in that round doing big damage without save and can use the the spell slots for buffing before or healing after combat.
GSF evocation might be worth taking since there aren't many useful feats for a pure cleric to take. But "rapid shot" and "improved critical" are far more useful.

As for druids: They benefit more from GSF transmutation than from GSF evocation. Quality is more important than quantity. But taking both isn't a bad idea either.

[Lazigothi]

Regarding the two weapons vs two-handed weapon, this is also a matter of choice. Since the original idea was for more rpg than powergame, which seems more alluring in that regard for you? There's the swifter, flashy double fun of 2 weapons who goes for quantity, and then there's the slow, gritty basher with the one weapon that goes for quality. Two weapons on an Elf looks dashing but possibly silly for a Barbarian Orc.

I found that multiclassing in 2E and 3E will limit full spell potential if the split classes are evenly distributed. The benefit though in 3E, is that as long as one of the two classes is a favored class, the difference in level distribution can now progress significantly greater. It's kind of like a merging of dual classing with multi-classing the old way. You can take just enough levels to get benefits of one class and then focus on the spellcasting class and achieve a higher potential. Right now, I've got a Tiefling that started as a 4th level Fighter, and now I'm going to put the remaining levels all as a Wizard. Rogue isn't among them, so I'm calculating ideally that the experience penalty for unequal distribution will be countered by only having 5 characters instead of six. So far so good since the character's Effective Class Level is 7 or 8 after coming back from the Horde Fortress.

[Magrus]

Paladin's get the Divine Grace ability, which adds your Charisma bonus to your Saving throws, not AC. Monks add their Dex and Wis to their AC, but that's the closest thing to it you'll find in the game.

[karlstegger]

wow all this really give me something to think about, really a great help I get here! Unfortunately, I work too much today and tomorrow but I'll take a thoroughly look at it thursday. Hope I'll be able to make my party then and get startet....can't wait!!!

[karlstegger]

So...Now I have (finally) been able to get on with my starting party.

First thanks for all the great ideas you've come up with, makes it much easier for me to optimize a party, not knowing about the various feats before

I have been considering many possibilities but finally i came up with this:


I keep my half-orc fighter/barbarian as a tank. I leave out intimidation and take concentration & WL (for game play)

I keep my human sorcerer (but change the stats a bit as kmonster suggests)

I make my cleric a dwarf and change stats...normally I have never been using clerics too much in battle (fighting wise that is) but apparently he's quite good at ranged attacks in IWD II so I'll give it a shot.

I really like the idea of a monk/rogue (thx Magrus) so I'll create the deeep gnome.

With my sneaky character and rogue already created I'll go for a bard. I'll make him a human bard (for more skills) and he'll get the diplomatic skills.

Thanks to Magrus' suggestion I still have room for one more and I have been considering two characters: The druid or the drow fighter. Maybe the wisest choice here would be the druid but for roleplaying feeling I chose to make a drow warrior. he will be a strong character, stats not too far from the barbarian. He will be skilled in melee and ranged attack with a bow.


So to sum up, my party is now something like this:


1:
Half-orc fighter 4/ barbarian X (start out as barbarian)
Stats: 20-16-18-1-18-1
Skills: wilderness lore
Feats: power attack, cleave
Party role: tank


2:
Human sorcerer.
Stats: 8-12-18-12-8-18
Skills: concentration, knowledge arcana
Feats: SF evocation and enchantment
Starting spells: magic missile & sleep
Party role: mage (attack + summon spells), lore


3:
Shield dwarf cleric (battleguard)
Stats 18-16-20-3-18-1
Skills: concentration
Feats: rapid shot
Party role: cleric (healer, buffing, summoning), ranged attack


4:
Deep gnome monk/rogue (start out as a rogue)
Stats: 16 (or 14)-18-10-13-16 (or 18)-1
Skills: hide, move silently, search, disable device, open lock
Feats: disciplin
Party role: mage/cleric killer, assassin, rogue


5:
Human bard
Stats: 10-18-10-12-8-18
Skills: concentration, diplomacy, intimidate, bluff
Feats: lingering song, rapid shot
Party role: back-up spellcaster (heal, summon etc), diplomat


6:
Drow fighter
Stats: 18-20-16-5-16-5
Skills: alchemy
Feats: power attack, rapid shot
Party role: tank, ranged attack



So this will be the 6 guys venturing forth from Targos in near future...hopefully starting this weekend Perhaps not the most top tuned party but i'm pretty sure they'll do just fine

Any comments/questions are welcome....



Lars

[Jelaweb]

With the look of a power-gaming type party, I hope this may come in handy...

4. I'm not sure about this character personally. I know this is your Rogue, but you sacrificing the "decoy" and "defensive" parts of Magrus's suggestion. Ideally, you would want DEX and WIS maxed at 20, for maximum AC bonuses. Unfortunately, the 13 INT is needed for Expertise. If this is the plan, then STR is not needed (it is pointless to give STR bonuses to a character with a -5 to hit with Expertise). Otherwise, drop the INT down for STR and CON, putting the skills in Disable Device and some in Search (all the other Rogue skills, except Pick Pockets, can be done with spells or brute force).
For this kind of character, using Small Blades (daggers and short swords) with the Weapon Finesse feat is probably the best way to reduce STR in favour of higher WIS and DEX (ignore the unarmed combat, or install the EoU mod component that treats fists like small blades).
Also, the Dodge feat should be taken quite early (any AC bonus is good for a decoy).
Suggested Stats: 10-20-10-13-20-1.

I suppose it is a question of whether you want to sacrifice STR in favour of AC. Just remember that as a defensive character, the aim is not to cause damage, but to protect the other party members. And to my knowledge, the sneak attack damage is "free", and you do not gain STR bonuses for damage.

[karlstegger]

Jelaweb...you're absolutely rigth on that, didn't realize that expertise caused -5 to hit so of course it would be the wiser decision to make him a dex fighter. Thanks for pointing that out!

Lars