Views on the Military

Cartell · Post by **Cartell** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:52 pm

OK, my Military Service thread was just overtaken with war talk.... So here is a thread to continue the discussion taking place in Service thread... Only this time it will be on topic... and not Spam:laugh:

Vicsun wrote:To clarify on Silur's behalf, armies in first world countries are usually used offensively (Israel excluded) so the line "I'm in the army to defend my country" which I keep on hearing (honestly, I've heard that argument every time I talk to someone who's served in the armed forces, regardless of nationality.

My personal view is that those who say they are joining the Military to "defend" our country our a little disillisioned. Defending our country is more of an abstract term in the case of U.S. and is more like a defense of Freedom then the grounds of the United States. However, those joining the military to Serve their country have gotten it right. We may not be doing much defending, but is their a more honorable goal then to give back to the country that gives you freedoms others do not have, by serving a few years in it's military???

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:06 pm

:laugh: Oh man. First off, good luck with the hordes of doom. This just made my night. :laugh:

Secondly...

[QUOTE=Cartell]We may not be doing much defending, but is their a more honorable goal then to give back to the country that gives you freedoms others do not have, by serving a few years in it's military???[/QUOTE]

You are giving absolutely nothing at all back to this country by joining the army unless someone declares war on us or starts attacking our country. Keep this in mind. Absolutely nothing. If you want to give back to this country, why not pick up a job, and volunteer 10 hours a week building houses for the homeless, or hell, start your own army, and otherthrow the corrupt government who is waging war in order to gain control over a finite resource. Now that would be an honorable use of your time and effort as a US citizen.

Cartell · Post by **Cartell** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:20 pm

Magrus wrote::laugh: Oh man. First off, good luck with the hordes of doom. This just made my night. :laugh:

Trust me... I know

Magrus wrote:You are giving absolutely nothing at all back to this country by joining the army unless someone declares war on us or starts attacking our country. Keep this in mind. Absolutely nothing. If you want to give back to this country, why not pick up a job, and volunteer 10 hours a week building houses for the homeless,

Maybe saying there is not higher calling then the military is a little exaggerated, but by serving in the armed forces you give a couple of years of your life over to the government. Completely. So you are giving somthing back..

Magrus wrote:or hell, start your own army, and otherthrow the corrupt government who is waging war in order to gain control over a finite resource. Now that would be an honorable use of your time and effort as a US citizen.

It's Brilliant!:laugh: Lets do it Magrus. You supply the arms I'll recruit the soldiers..

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:46 pm

Cartell wrote:Maybe saying there is not higher calling then the military is a little exaggerated, but by serving in the armed forces you give a couple of years of your life over to the government. Completely. So you are giving somthing back..

They do own you, as mentioned in that other thread by someone, I forget who, who was in the military. One of my bosses at work was on Riverboat patrol during Vietnam, he treats all of his employees like he owns them and we are in the military. Doesn't work out, but as I said in that thread...I work with a LOT of Vietnam vets. They have all said that the experience changed them, and they learned a lot from it. However, they will not say anything good about the military in and of itself.

There is a big difference between that and the reality of the situation....life threatening situations change you. Discipline and hard work change you. If you want a "life changing" experience that will open your eyes to the cruelty of the world and force you to push yourself past all of the things you thought were your personal limits in life, there are alternatives to the military. Finding physical challenges with risks and bringing discipline into your life does not mean you must sign your life away to a corporate run government bent on conquering other countries in order to get natural resources.

When I say I work with a lot of veterans, I do mean that. These aren't the guys that came back from war in a wheel chair, these guys are the men that came back and came out of their ordeals well. Each and every single one of them speak ill of the government, this country's response, and they have nothing good to say about the military branch in and of itself that governed them during their tour of duty. They will say they met good friends, learned a lot about the world, life and themselves. They will say that it was an incredible, or terrible experience. However, never have I heard anyone I know that has been in the military say they were happy with their treatment by the people above their heads in the military.

The reality of the situation, is that the government sees the military branches as hmm, branches of a huge corporation that deal with protecting and securing valuable assets. The people within the branches are means to an end. Similar to how a mechanic views a screwdriver or a wrench. You use what you have to get the job done, and if it doesn't work, you get something else that works better. If it breaks while you are using it, it was a failure, and you need a replacement, ASAP.

The patriotism instilled in you right now is a product of brainwashing. From the mandate forcing you to say the pledge of allegiance, to the association of your parents getting time off from work and them rushing out to take you somewhere to watch fireworks on 4th of July, to celebrate the birth of this countries independance. This is so that you, as a US citizen will "do your duty to your country" when called upon. Including lay your life on the line when requested to, and hopefully, the filth you were taught in school was believed as truth instead of a biased accounting of history so you do not question the motives of your government. I mean, they don't want you to not respond to the call of arms to "defend the homeland" because you read that the American soldiers of old did horrible things to the natives here in order to secure this "homeland", but rather that they "cleansed the land of heathen savages" instead.

If you join up, you will be hammered with lies and propoganda to make you believe things the government wants you to believe. Why? So that you will do what they tell you to do without questioning their motives. One of my aunts is married to a retired army officer who returned from Iraq two years ago and then promptly retired. He was disgusted that he was lied to and had to follow his orders and order his troops to do what they did there. The locals did not want his troops there. I'm not talking anti-american soldiers. I am talking mothers, fathers, children, school teachers, doctors, etc. All protesting and cursing at the soldiers. He was spit on and called a "greedy, capitalist butcher" by one of the teachers there, and suddenly wondered what he was doing there.

So, there are a lot of things you can do that I would consider more honourable that would help this country. Volunteer knitting blankets or ladling out soup for homeless people. It may not be a macho thing that makes you feel all strong and stuff, but it does help people in this country, directly.

Cartell wrote:It's Brilliant!:laugh: Lets do it Magrus. You supply the arms I'll recruit the soldiers..

Isn't it though? You aren't the first person to say that, and most of them have been deadly serious....

Cartell · Post by **Cartell** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:17 pm

Magrus wrote: The patriotism instilled in you right now is a product of brainwashing. From the mandate forcing you to say the pledge of allegiance, to the association of your parents getting time off from work and them rushing out to take you somewhere to watch fireworks on 4th of July, to celebrate the birth of this countries independance. This is so that you, as a US citizen will "do your duty to your country" when called upon. Including lay your life on the line when requested to, and hopefully, the filth you were taught in school was believed as truth instead of a biased accounting of history so you do not question the motives of your government. I mean, they don't want you to not respond to the call of arms to "defend the homeland" because you read that the American soldiers of old did horrible things to the natives here in order to secure this "homeland", but rather that they "cleansed the land of heathen savages" instead.

The fact that I love my country is not born out of any brainwashing. And I don't love them because they make the best choices. At this point a difference has to be made between the country, and the people who run it. While I may not agree with some of the ideas, or even the people who run our government, I still love the country.

The country is an ideal. It is the "melting pot" of ethnicities. It it what allows freedom of Speech, and all the other freedoms we are granted. It is the people who live in this country, and those who fight for it. The teachers, the shopkeepers, the postal workers, the everyday student, and yes even the soldier. That is what makes up America. It may be a little idealistic, but the "country" is what we make of it. It isn't what the politicians do. They are people, and people in general make mistakes. To not agree with the wars we are in our the decisions we make is not to back our country but it is not backing those who lead us. While our leaders may be inept, we should still back those who are risking their lives in Iraq. It isn't their choice to fight. I may not be pro-bush, but I am pro-US and am all for supporting those fighting.

And I too, have talked to veterans, many of them in my family. They may not say everything was nice, but unlike the veterans you talk to who have nothing good to say, they have some decent things to say. When you say every vetern you have talked to says nothing good about the government or military makes me wonder.... EVERY SINGLE ONE had nothing good to say??

Magrus wrote:Isn't it though? You aren't the first person to say that, and most of them have been deadly serious....

Yes and those people who have been caught are now in Jail or dead... They are called terrorists, and IMO are the worst human beings alive. It's the people who thought that in deadly ernest that caused 9/11. It's those people who are fighting a holy war. A jihad.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:23 pm

No, nothing. They were all lied to, treated like crap, and dropped like a bad habit once they got home to fend for themselves.

Cartell wrote:Yes and those people who have been caught are now in Jail or dead... They are called terrorists, and IMO are the worst human beings alive. It's the people who thought that in deadly ernest that caused 9/11. It's those people who are fighting a holy war. A jihad.

Oh yeah? Didn't go through American history very well did you? You comprehend that the first group of people to run this country actually suggested that when the government did not work for the people, a revolution occur to fix it so the goverment helped the people instead of being a burden. In that respect, I happen to be more patriotic than any of the boys with guns and in fatigues. Funny that eh? I still have my freedom too.

Cartell · Post by **Cartell** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:35 pm

Yes the first group of people did suggest that. However, I think you will agree with me that England was mistreating the colonies far more then Bush or any other president has mistreated us. And so when talking about people who form armies to take down the government, the colonists had enough provocation. And they did try to work it out first. Think Olive Branch Petition. That is a far cry from creating an army of terrorists and taking out civilians. Also, I have never seen or heard of a reseanable terrorists offer of peace.

As for your veterans, they may believe that. However, Vietnam was also a pretty bad war in the way it was fought. It was the worse war America has fought in terms of the conditions that the soldiers had to endure. Also when referring to vietnam, it isn't really a war, since the US government never declared war. As for the government dropping them like a bad habit, I refer to my previous point, the people in the government are just that people and therefore make mistakes.

I never said anything about your patratism, but can you really prove that statement??

Dowaco · Post by **Dowaco** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:41 pm

The National Guard mostly helps people in the community they are a part of, throughout the country and around the world. Airlifts of food and supplies, evacuating people in danger etc. Being in the armed forces is not all about fighting an enemy, although they do that as well. The people I have met have been proud to do the job they do, and they enjoy a life-style that incorporates honor, discipline and camaraderie. They feel like part of a family.
The military is not for me due to my independent streak and unwillingness to take orders from just anybody, but many find the service rewarding and it teaches then a skill they can use when they get out.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:49 pm

Cartell wrote:Yes the first group of people did suggest that. However, I think you will agree with me that England was mistreating the colonies far more then Bush or any other president has mistreated us. And so when talking about people who form armies to take down the government, the colonists had enough provocation. And they did try to work it out first. Think Olive Branch Petition. That is a far cry from creating an army of terrorists and taking out civilians. Also, I have never seen or heard of a reseanable terrorists offer of peace.

When did I ever say anything about killing civilians or becoming a terrorist?

Your argument has nothing at all to do with what I mentioned.

Cartell wrote:As for your veterans, they may believe that. However, Vietnam was also a pretty bad war in the way it was fought. It was the worse war America has fought in terms of the conditions that the soldiers had to endure. Also when referring to vietnam, it isn't really a war, since the US government never declared war. As for the government dropping them like a bad habit, I refer to my previous point, the people in the government are just that people and therefore make mistakes.

:laugh: So, if I gathered a group of a couple thousand people and invaded the states to the northeast of NY, complete with guns and air raids...it wouldn't be a war unless I declared war?

Sweet. I could conquer Canada and the states between Maine and NY without even getting into a war!

Cartell wrote:I never said anything about your patratism, but can you really prove that statement??

*shrugs* I don't see the point to. If you're really curious, have fun digging through the propoganda to find the truth. Maybe someone else will have a book with a page number or something, I don't though. However, for a very basic reference, look to the history of both the revolutionary and civil wars. Whenever a government was in place that seemed "wrong" at it's core, the people here rebelled and fought to right things. Whether it be foreign or local.

Cartell · Post by **Cartell** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:05 pm

Magrus wrote:When did I ever say anything about killing civilians or becoming a terrorist? Your argument has nothing at all to do with what I mentioned.

I was simply arguing against comparing the founding fathers to those who agree with the previously mentioned statement about recruiting an army and taking over the counrty.

Magrus wrote: :laugh: So, if I gathered a group of a couple thousand people and invaded the states to the northeast of NY, complete with guns and air raids...it wouldn't be a war unless I declared war? Sweet. I could conquer Canada and the states between Maine and NY without even getting into a war!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: No..:laugh: :laugh: I was simply stating a semi random fact. It actually more supports your point about how the war wasn't good then anything else. However it is true that it was a war in everything save the name. It really should be called the Vietnam Conflict:laugh: Just an Interesting Trivia bit.

Magrus wrote: *shrugs* I don't see the point to. If you're really curious, have fun digging through the propoganda to find the truth. Maybe someone else will have a book with a page number or something, I don't though. However, for a very basic reference, look to the history of both the revolutionary and civil wars. Whenever a government was in place that seemed "wrong" at it's core, the people here rebelled and fought to right things. Whether it be foreign or local.

But what makes a government "Wrong" what is the definition of wrong in this case... Is it realitive to the people group, or is whats wrong somewhere wrong everywhere?? Just an interesting thought

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:21 am

If you hate terrorists so badly, the military is definitely not the right place to be if you want to see less of them. The current US military involvements globally have created more terrorists than anything else on the planet...

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:11 am

Indeed, the US foreign policy over the last 6 years has alienated most every other country in the world from their former view on this countries government. To be honest, I am shocked that those who wish to do this country harm haven't attacked while our army is elsewhere to teach "us" a lesson. If I were in one of those countries, and my little childs school was blown up by some foreign soldiers hunting for "terrorists" *coughoilcough*, I would most definately be up in arms over it and plotting to take down the government body that gave those orders.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:14 pm

Cartell, thank you for starting this new message thread. It was a very kind gesture, and it's nice to know that you appreciate our input even if we haven't served in the military.

You said in your other message thread that you are thinking about joining the military. As others have suggested, you should think about your reasons for joining and try to find out exactly what you would be doing in the military. As Silur has pointed out, there might be other ways to accomplish your goals besides joining the military.

Many of my relatives have proudly served their country (World War II was the big one). My own feeling (irrational though it might be) is that they have actually "done something in their lives" besides live their own lives and try to make money and so forth. Military service is something that is bigger than the sum of its parts, and it really is good for the country. However, the main thing that bothers me is that while a specific military objective might be well-defined (assuming that well-defined military objectives are not completely a thing of the past) is that the individuals who served voluntarily don't seem to know exactly why they joined the military. I thought that money was an obvious answer in some cases, but they insisted it wasn't just about the money. But they couldn't give me any more detail than that. I hope that when your time is done, you can say why you did it and whether it met your expectations.

I believe that soldiers should follow orders, and I believe that civilians should be in charge of important military decisions, for a variety of reasons. (Our military is founded on those two ideas.) But before you get involved, I think you need to ask how you and your life will be put to use. I didn't want to start bashing the Bush administration here, but I saw a couple of news articles today that should make everyone stop and think. The question to you is, what would you be accomplishing if you were sent to Iraq? Is it something you really want to do? Read the articles below and think about it.

Kroll pulls security team out of Iraq

Bechtel pulling out after 3 rough years of rebuilding work

Here's my obligatory editorial comment. It's pretty clear that if the reconstruction is over because the security situation in Iraq is too dangerous even for the hired mercenaries, then the Iraq war (whatever the objectives were supposed to be) has been a total failure. What would be the point in sending more soldiers there now? Do you want to join the military when there's a chance you could be sent there and your whole purpose in joining the military would be misused?

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:28 am

In a world where the military always has been glorified and noble warriors are an ideal, seeing the current corporate finance goon squads for what they really are may be difficult, sometimes even heartbreaking. Wars aren't fought for honor any more, and haven't since well before the 19:th century. Neither are they fought for ideology, since ideology has pretty much died since around 1989. Religion may still be the pretext for some, but the true driving forces are power and money. They've always been the principal reasons for war, but what is thoroughly disgusting is that "humanitarian aid" is the latest excuse for armed aggression. The invasion of Iraq is nothing more than a government sponsored corporate takeover, that has cost half a million of the Iraqui people their lives, many more their homes and thrown the country into a turmoil where no one is safe any more. Besides that, the perspectives aren't that different; the new government consists mainly of Saddams old buddies, the conflicts between Sunni, Shias and Kurds are still there, and the only valuable resource in the country still doesn't belong to it's people.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:10 pm

About the quote of Vicsun in the first post of this thread made by Cartell:
There is other countries as well as Israell which base their military service to defending of mother country. My country is among such, and I know this since I have been serving in military almost an year now (10 months, if we are precise...). Now, we have only been trained to defend out country, absolutely not to attack. Ant the name of our military force also gives out the fact that it's only for defensing purpose only...

So, please before you claim something as truth, find out the facts first...

About serving in military... I think it's more than honour to sacrifice one year of my life to my country. It's also mandatory to every man in my country, excluding few special cases.

For those who do not know this: I'm not from USA, but from Europe, and the troops from m y country has never used in any other way than either defending our country or keeping up peace all around Europe... No attacks, nothing offensive...

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:17 pm

It is all too easy to establish a military "for defense of the father/motherland" that finds itself always attacking other, nearby nations, to forestall attacks, or to achieve some goal. Israel's military is in Lebanon at the moment. The US military was supposedly created "to provide for the common defense," but it hasn't been used defensively since the War of 1812. However good the intentions, military created for defense seem to end up usually operating offensively, at some point--unless you're Swiss.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:45 am

I think that in todays warfare Switzerland isn't as impossible to invade as it has been in the past, but why would you? Chocolate and Cu-cu-clocks are hardly worth dying for. I have some issues with them guarding the pope though.

I think there is a mixup between guarding and defending in this thread. There are plenty of nations who have an army guarding their borders and that haven't recently been outside those borders (except maybe on UN work). But guard duty is not the same as defending, which only happens if someone is on an offensive against you. South Korea is not in a shooting war with North Korea, so the border watch is on guard, though it's probably one of the least pleasant guard duties around. The Israeli army was defensive for a while, until some genious started chanting american football slogans like "The best defense is a good offence" to the troops, something they have been living by ever since.

The only military recently in defense of it's nation that I can think of is the Iraqui army, who did a little half-hearted defending when they were attacked by the US invasion force. Chechnya is in a civil war since they still are a part of the Russian federation, so there the military is on an offensive within their borders and those defending are, well, terrorists I guess. It is fascinating how much verbal maneuvering is being done to define your opponent to be a terrorist without accidentally creating a definition that includes your own forces... the main manouverers being Israel, The US and Russia, of course. In my view it isn't working that well, since many of the currently floated definitions would include most or all of those nations armed forces as well.