What's a more powerful class, wizard or sorc?

[De_Priester]

Now I know there is another thread about the sorc and wizard choice. But my question is different and a bit more simple.

I know for one a sorceror can have a lot more castings but a wizard has more different spells. Now the thing is, I am one of those players that rests between most fights, simply because I have no idea what to expect and I want to be ready for everything. Between a wizard and a sorceror, who packs the biggest punch? A wizard can get spells faster and higher level spells for that matter but is there a difference between the power with which a wizard shoots a spell or the sorc shoots it?

Also a wizard can pick from the metamagic feats, can a sorc also do this? Does a wizard gain more feats than a sorc?

I currently have a wizard with rather high int and what I've noticed the most welcome skill is actually tumble and use magic device. Never having tried a high charisma sorc I want to try one with diplomacy and tumble.

So tell me can a wizard outdo a sorc in brute damage or are they equal in this? Since I rest a lot the ammount of spells a sorc has do not really matter that much to me, I want to know who does more damage. If they can do equal damage I would switch to a sorc because it means less resting, if a wizard can outdamage a sorceror I'm sticking with the wizard simply because I am powerhungry

[Siberys]

If you're halfway intelligent with building a character, no class can be stronger than another class. They are balanced in a way that it is not possible to make a class stronger than another lest you purposely screw up the build.

If you're really intelligent about it, you can make any class beat any other higher level class. I could easily make a 3rd level wizard that can beat a 6th level sorcerer; just the same, I can make a 3rd level sorcerer stronger than a 6th level wizard.

[De_Priester]

If you're halfway intelligent with building a character, no class can be stronger than another class. They are balanced in a way that it is not possible to make a class stronger than another lest you purposely screw up the build.

If you're really intelligent about it, you can make any class beat any other higher level class. I could easily make a 3rd level wizard that can beat a 6th level sorcerer; just the same, I can make a 3rd level sorcerer stronger than a 6th level wizard.

Yeah that's really helping me with a choice how about this, will a wizard get more feats and is a wizard the only one with feats from the metamagic table? Sure each class is equal in strength but the question isn't directly about the class but more about the spells they cast.

Can a wizard cast more powerful spells than a sorc or can he make the spells more powerful for example through metamagic, which a sorceror could not do? now What a wizard might win in pure damage output he might lack in charisma, so each character has a benefit and a weakness.

I am well aware of the weakness with a wizard but what I want to know, does his strength with spells surpass that of a sorceror or are they equal, in which case the sorceror just has more spells to cast but a more compact selection....

mmmz hope that helps..

[Siberys]

A wizard does indeed gain more feats, and no he is not the only one with access to metamagics. Clerics, Druids, Bards, Rangers, ALL spell casters including the sorcerer's have access to metamagic spells so long as they can cast spells.

A wizard cannot make a spell more powerful by using metamagic, while it seems that a wizard is actually doing more damage with that empowered fireball, the metamagic also increases the level of the slot you need to use that kind of fireball, balancing it out once again.

The entire system of DND, whether it be on the table or in neverwinter nights, is based completely on an equation. A wizard is equal to a sorcerer in every way necessary even if they have different features.

Whether it be feats or spells or familiars or animal companions or the saving throws or base attack or what have you, there is NO class stronger than another.

I know it's not helping you choose, but I'm serious, the wizard is not more powerful than the sorcerer in any way, and neither is the sorcerer more powerful than the wizard in any way.

[De_Priester]

A wizard does indeed gain more feats, and no he is not the only one with access to metamagics. Clerics, Druids, Bards, Rangers, ALL spell casters including the sorcerer's have access to metamagic spells so long as they can cast spells.

A wizard cannot make a spell more powerful by using metamagic, while it seems that a wizard is actually doing more damage with that empowered fireball, the metamagic also increases the level of the slot you need to use that kind of fireball, balancing it out once again.

The entire system of DND, whether it be on the table or in neverwinter nights, is based completely on an equation. A wizard is equal to a sorcerer in every way necessary even if they have different features.

Whether it be feats or spells or familiars or animal companions or the saving throws or base attack or what have you, there is NO class stronger than another.

I know it's not helping you choose, but I'm serious, the wizard is not more powerful than the sorcerer in any way, and neither is the sorcerer more powerful than the wizard in any way.

Well that's actually what I wanted to know, so the only difference is that a Wizard can get higher level spells faster and has a larger variety than a sorceror but a sorceror can cast more spells but a limited variety.

Now can someone explain me how a sorceror gains spells? Meaning a wizard can cast more spells if he has more int, does a sorceror gain more spells as he gains more charisma and is there a table where I can view how many spells he can cast at which level with an X ammount of charisma? (heh groovy)

[szenhidrat]

wizard:
-bonus feats
-more known spells
-gets better spells earlier/f.e.the wizard can cast his/her first 6th level spell at lvl 11 and the sorceror can cast his/her first 6th level spell at lvl 12 -> 1 lvl difference/
-uses intelligence for spellcasting -> more skillpoint without extra attribute point spent!

sorceror:
-more spellcasting/at 20th level without bonuses he/she can cast 6+6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6 spells /tricks/0 level/+1st-9th level/ the wizard without bonuses 4+4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4
-no bonus feats/exept for general at every 3th level/
-very few known spells
-uses charisma to cast->u need to put attribute in intelligence too if u want more skills
-can advance to red dragon discipline


If this will be your first spellcasting char u should choose the sorceror, cause u can beat everybody using a few spells/fireball,magic missiles etc/and u can cast them far more than a wizard,BUT if u want use a 'real' magician who knows a dozen of spells and using different spells in combat and in different situations, not only the quick-killers then your class is the wizard. So the sorcerer is easier and the wizard is better .

[Siberys]

That is incorrect. A wizard does not gain more spells based on intelligence, he gains 2 spells every level. However, he does gain more spells per day based on int, just the same as any spellcasting class gains bonus spells per day based on their respective spellcasting ability scores.

The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org

It contains all of the official class rules that are used in the neverwinter nights 2 game aside from Warlock.

[De_Priester]

That is incorrect. A wizard does not gain more spells based on intelligence, he gains 2 spells every level. However, he does gain more spells per day based on int,

Yeah that's what I meant/needed, so without a bonus a sorc can cast two spells of each level more each day not considering the bonus he might gain from charisma.

It says here in the table that a wizard does gain a bonus feat every 5 levels which a sorceror does not right?

Also how much int or charisma does it take to get one more casting of each level each day? (can't seem to find it)

That leaves me with one important question, I saw there is a headband of intelligence +8 (no idea where to find it) but considering the importance of intelligence for a wizard as caster is there an item that has +8 charisma? Now I do not want a spoiler here I just want to know if a sorceror and wizard have the same odds when it comes to these items. If a sorceror can only find an item with +2 charisma but a wizard can find a headband with +8 intelligence I'd say the wizard can beat the number of castings a sorceror has each day.

[Siberys]

Mmmk, to be able to cast at least one more of each level spell you have, as in if you have all 9 levels of spells and you want at least 1 bonus spell from your charisma/intelligence, you would need a score of 28 to gain that.

The Basics :: d20srd.org

As for the +8 intelligence/charisma magic items, couple things. One, it cannot be +8 in neverwinter nights 2. NWN 2 as I hear does not go into epic levels, and a +8 ability score bonus item is epic, epic meaning Above 21st level. However, there is the normal +6 items as normal.

Yes, there is a +6 charisma item, they should have all of the ability scores tied to an item.

If they did it right, then it should be this-

Strength- Either in Gauntlets (Max +2) or a Belt (Max +6, Min +4), don't ask me why they did it that way. In any case, the belt and gauntlets do not stack, you'll simply receive the higher of bonuses.
Dexterity- Gloves Max +6.
Constitution- Amulet Max +6
Intelligence- Headband Max +6
Wisdom- Amulet Max +6
Charisma- Cloak Max +6

NWN was really screwy with the rules on magic items, so those are the core DND 3.5 rules, I don't know how they'd do it in NWN 2, but at least you have some prior knowledge of what to look for when searching for a Cloak of Charisma or something.

[Tricky]

- "ever having tried a high charisma sorc I want to try one with diplomacy and tumble."

Sorry, they don't have diplomacy as a class skill. That may or may not discourage you from investing points in it. Bluff is their social class skill though. Personally I don't like how the system coaxes certain classes into getting a single one. Where is the roleplay in that? Are all wizards supposed to be socially inept, are all sorcerer supposed to be liars and are all Warlocks supposed to be intimidating?

[De_Priester]

- "ever having tried a high charisma sorc I want to try one with diplomacy and tumble."

Sorry, they don't have diplomacy as a class skill. That may or may not discourage you from investing points in it. Bluff is their social class skill though. Personally I don't like how the system coaxes certain classes into getting a single one. Where is the roleplay in that? Are all wizards supposed to be socially inept, are all sorcerer supposed to be liars and are all Warlocks supposed to be intimidating?

I know it's not their classskill and I don't care, I found that tumble for example is amazing while playing solo or trying to get your sorc/wizard out of danger while he draws aggro.

As for diplomacy, out of all the roleplayingskills this one fits me best. So I'd rather "waste" my skillpoints one two things I really like than getting skills that are supposed to be the classskills and I never use.

[Siberys]

Actually, that makes sense with actual class skills, but in a different perspective than how you describe. Sorcerers are poets and are great at getting out of tight spots with wordings and such, that doesn't mean they cannot get diplomacy though, cross class is always an option.

A wizard is socially inept, that makes perfect sense, they spend a LOT of time studying spellbooks instead of people, why would they be diplomatic? They can be but they usually aren't, that's the whole perspective of cross class skills.

[De_Priester]

Mmmk, to be able to cast at least one more of each level spell you have, as in if you have all 9 levels of spells and you want at least 1 bonus spell from your charisma/intelligence, you would need a score of 28 to gain that.

The Basics :: d20srd.org

As for the +8 intelligence/charisma magic items, couple things. One, it cannot be +8 in neverwinter nights 2. NWN 2 as I hear does not go into epic levels, and a +8 ability score bonus item is epic, epic meaning Above 21st level. However, there is the normal +6 items as normal.

Yes, there is a +6 charisma item, they should have all of the ability scores tied to an item.

If they did it right, then it should be this-

Strength- Either in Gauntlets (Max +2) or a Belt (Max +6, Min +4), don't ask me why they did it that way. In any case, the belt and gauntlets do not stack, you'll simply receive the higher of bonuses.
Dexterity- Gloves Max +6.
Constitution- Amulet Max +6
Intelligence- Headband Max +6
Wisdom- Amulet Max +6
Charisma- Cloak Max +6

NWN was really screwy with the rules on magic items, so those are the core DND 3.5 rules, I don't know how they'd do it in NWN 2, but at least you have some prior knowledge of what to look for when searching for a Cloak of Charisma or something.

Okay now we are getting somewhere, so you need 19 charisma/intelligence to cast lvl 9 sorceror or wizardspells correct? Does this need to be your BASEvalue or can you leave it at 18 intelligence for example and get the rest with items?

Now the bonuses you need to have in order to get +1 6th level spell each day is +6. Now that would make it for a wizard far more important to max intelligence and get more castings each day, a sorceror could put the points elsewhere because he already has more castings each day just as long as he has the 19 charisma so he can take 9th level spells.

So to me this means a sorceror can be more versatile while having a limited selection of different spells but being to able to spend more points in other areas. A wizard can cast a lot more different spells but needs a higher abilitybonus in order to have more castings each day.

Dang getting dizzy from all this thinking

[De_Priester]

So ehrm here goes:

Wizard:

- Has a larger selection of spells
- Has access to higher level spells faster
- Has a bonusfeat every 5th level (so he has 3 feats more than a sorceror at lvl 20)
- Can cast 4 spells for each level at lvl 20
- Has more skillpoints to spend

Sorceror

- Can cast more spells each day but has a smaller selection
- Reaches spelllevels one level slower than a wizard
- Only needs 19 charisma to cast the spells he wants and fairly often
- Has more abilitypoints to spend because he doesn't need to go so heavy on charisma as a wizard does on intelligence

[De_Priester]

So ehrm here goes:

Wizard:

- Has a larger selection of spells
- Has access to higher level spells faster
- Has a bonusfeat every 5th level (so he has 3 feats more than a sorceror at lvl 20)
- Can cast 4 spells for each level at lvl 20
- Has more skillpoints to spend

Sorceror

- Can cast more spells each day but has a smaller selection
- Reaches spelllevels one level slower than a wizard
- Only needs 19 charisma to cast the spells he wants and fairly often
- Has more abilitypoints to spend because he doesn't need to go so heavy on charisma as a wizard does on intelligence

So it comes down to this, the major difference is that a wizard has 3 more feats at level 20, the sorceror has less skillpoints each level but the only ones I want are tumble and diplomacy (khelgorn can do lore).

3 feats extra for a wizard but a wizard needs more intelligence to match a sorceror with his castings each day. A sorceror can spend abilitypoints more freely because he only needs to reach 19 charisma in order to get his 9thlevel spells.

Are those three extra feats as important as the freedom to have more abilitypoints to spend freely and thus the ability to be more balanced and hardy against damage?

Right or am I forgetting things?

[szenhidrat]

"sorceror can spend abilitypoints more freely because he only needs to reach 19 charisma in order to get his 9thlevel spells."

wizard needs 19 too (in intelligence) to cast 9th spells,but the sorc with 19 cha can cast more spells a day

[De_Priester]

"sorceror can spend abilitypoints more freely because he only needs to reach 19 charisma in order to get his 9thlevel spells."

wizard needs 19 too (in intelligence) to cast 9th spells,but the sorc with 19 cha can cast more spells a day

Correct, but I feel that while the Sorceror can have enough spells to cast this way in order to be effective while a Wizard needs to put more points into intelligence in order to catch up with the Sorceror. I've always maxed intelligence with my Wizards so I would be able to cast more spells each day. Now with a sorceror he already has more spells to cast each level which means at least for me he doesn't need as much points in charisma as a wizard would need in intelligence in order to be "effective". For example according to my personal playstyle my wizard needs 22 intelligence to cast as much spells I need for a battle, a sorceror would only need 19 and thus has more to spend on other abilities.

[De_Priester]

Okay now we are getting somewhere, so you need 19 charisma/intelligence to cast lvl 9 sorceror or wizardspells correct? Does this need to be your BASEvalue or can you leave it at 18 intelligence for example and get the rest with items?

Answer me this please that way I can somewhat complete my analysis

[Tricky]

Base. I think this is all in the manual.

[De_Priester]

Base. I think this is all in the manual.

I'm at work

Working VERY hard COUGH COUGH

so maybe not, I use this time to write myself characterguides