PLaying a melee class actually more challenging?

[dragon wench]

I have fiddled with the various prestige classes in HoTU since you can level up to 15 at the onset, which makes it easy to see the direction in which they develop. I've concluded that going prestige with a caster is just not worth it (unless the PC focuses more on melee than on magic).
So, I decided to try creating a fighter/weapon master with a specialization in scythe, which I find an interesting tactical choice. In my view, the weapon master is about as close as you can get to a BG2 Kensai.

To the focus of this thread, though... Maybe it is because I am used to playing caster classes, but I am finding that playing what amounts to a straight fighter is actually far more difficult than a caster. You don't have those devastating area spells that take out, or soften, an entire room full of enemies, and you can't summon powerful help either.
I fully admit, it could simply be that I'm still learning how to effectively play a melee class, but I'd be interested to hear peoples' views


btw, I did check if there were any threads on this topic already, since I know it is a frequent one in the other game forums, but I didn't see anything. Sorry if I missed any relevant threads

[Fiberfar]

I found fighters to be "harder" than mages until I got Devestating Critical hit with my scythe. It all became riddicilously easy after that. If they didn't fail the fortitude save, me dealing out 160 damage a couple of times in a row certainly would stop the threat.

Not that mages are hard either. It's all down on how many times you're going to bother with the rests when the one millionth wave of the same monsters come charging you, again

[sleepwalker]

I was actually thinking the same thing today while I was playing HotU, part where you need to take down an annoying band including old buddies...! When I was playing that part with a ranger, it took me some time to get thru but now I was playing as a wizard and voilà, it took only a single try (and my precious henchmen didn't die either). But this has been on my mind earlier too. Maybe spellcasters aren't the toughest guys in the beginning but they'll grow to be great weapons of mass destruction. :laugh:

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Galuf & melee in NWN.

Me, I am a real melee person, especially when it comes to NWN.

I play a Paladin in the original campaign (partly because I haven't beaten that and gone to SoU or HotU yet). That class is mostly melee, and though it doesn't have the Barbarian's rage or the fighter's multitude of weapon feats, the paladin has some healing capabilities and abilities that help against evil-aligned enemies and undead.

I'm also thinking of possibly multi-classing my pally as a Champion of Torm in some case, likely if I can possibly port him to HotU. If not, I will with a SoU pally. That will also combine some boons such as bonus feats and the like to increased benefits.

I must admit, though, that I do hope to take both a Half-orc Barbarian and a Dwarf Fighter/Dwarven Defender through some campaigns for the feel of them too.

DW, if healing is your issue, and you don't mind playing a Lawful Good character, I highly suggest a Paladin. As far as AoE and damaging spells, I'd hate to say it, but that's pretty much not gonna happen. From what I've gathered, Boddynock the sorcerer is NOT RECOMMENDED as a henchman in the OC, due to his spellcasting AI. I'd definitely suggest Tomi Undergallows (especially if you like locks unlocked and some traps disarmed) or Linu (if you're concerned about healing). I have NO experience with the non-OC henchmen.

Hope that isn't too much to digest.

[dragon wench]

DW, if healing is your issue, and you don't mind playing a Lawful Good character, I highly suggest a Paladin. As far as AoE and damaging spells, I'd hate to say it, but that's pretty much not gonna happen. From what I've gathered, Boddynock the sorcerer is NOT RECOMMENDED as a henchman in the OC, due to his spellcasting AI. I'd definitely suggest Tomi Undergallows (especially if you like locks unlocked and some traps disarmed) or Linu (if you're concerned about healing). I have NO experience with the non-OC henchmen.

Hope that isn't too much to digest.

Thanks for the suggestion Galuf In general, if I do play a melee-oriented class I like to play the "agile, refined, thoughtful" type. So that basically translates to something like a monk or kensai type of character. Since kensai is not available in NWN, I'm trying out a monk/fighter/weapon master sort of class, and I'll see where that goes. I did consider a paladin, but I really like going with light or no armour. Yep, feel free to call me a masochist
So, the character I'm experimenting with so far breaks down as:

fighter - 6 (I had to take that many levels of fighter to obtain weapon specialization which is needed for weapon master)

monk - 6

weapon master - 3

What is fun with HoTU is that you get to level up to 15 at the beginning, which allows a lot of room to experiment and see immediate results. I'm not playing the original campaign right now; my henchman will be Deekin and Linu in the first chapter, and then like Deekin and the mage/rogue in chapter two.

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Thanks for the suggestion Galuf In general, if I do play a melee-oriented class I like to play the "agile, refined, thoughtful" type. So that basically translates to something like a monk or kensai type of character. Since kensai is not available in NWN, I'm trying out a monk/fighter/weapon master sort of class, and I'll see where that goes. I did consider a paladin, but I really like going with light or no armour. Yep, feel free to call me a masochist
So, the character I'm experimenting with so far breaks down as:

fighter - 6 (I had to take that many levels of fighter to obtain weapon specialization which is needed for weapon master)

monk - 6

weapon master - 3

What is fun with HoTU is that you get to level up to 15 at the beginning, which allows a lot of room to experiment and see immediate results. I'm not playing the original campaign right now; my henchman will be Deekin and Linu in the first chapter, and then like Deekin and the mage/rogue in chapter two.

Hmmmm... might work, as far as the levels go.

I get the hint you've had plenty of experience w/ HotU, so I'll bow out of talking about henchmen there.

[dragon wench]

lol Galuf,
I don't know if I've really had much experience with HoTU, I only recently got the game, and I've been a bit of a butterfly in testing out characters. Indeed, I haven't actually finished it yet, the furthest I've gotten is midway through the last chapter

But... what I have found is that even with melee characters, multi-classing seems to be a disadvantage. After getting my posterior repeatedly served up to me with the tri class character I described above, I decided to try out a pure class monk.... Suddenly I'm the one dishing out the damage instead...
And, even more importantly, an unarmed, bare-fisted monk is simply a lot of fun to play.
What can I say? I apparently have an inability to play more conventional melee-geared PCs...

[Galuf the Dwarf]

lol Galuf,
I don't know if I've really had much experience with HoTU, I only recently got the game, and I've been a bit of a butterfly in testing out characters. Indeed, I haven't actually finished it yet, the furthest I've gotten is midway through the last chapter

But... what I have found is that even with melee characters, multi-classing seems to be a disadvantage. After getting my posterior repeatedly served up to me with the tri class character I described above, I decided to try out a pure class monk.... Suddenly I'm the one dishing out the damage instead...
And, even more importantly, an unarmed, bare-fisted monk is simply a lot of fun to play.
What can I say? I apparently have an inability to play more conventional melee-geared PCs...

Meh, whatever works, I say. I like armored guys, you like unarmored characters. I like two-handed weapon tanking, you like DPS (damage per second). It's what we feel best with, no?

Yeah, I wasn't quite sure what to say about multi-classing, mostly since I generally refrain from it. I've heard wonders of single-class monks, though.

[Ookaze]

Monks are clearly better when they stay pure : the class is made so that you lose a lot if you multiclass.
But multiclassing can be a huge boost for some classes.
For example, I like the Ranger class. But with Shadowdancer mixed carefully into it, I destroy everything in the OCs, especially once I reach 10th level.
And that's without even using all the Ranger abilities (like the powerful animal companion in 1.68+) and Shadowdancer abilities.
Of course, I use a true Ranger : DEX based and light armor with dual wielding and rapier (6+ attacks/round).
The Shadowdancer addition (carefully planned, or it becomes inefficient) allows you to escape nearly all zone damage spells.
That's why I don't fear spellcasters anymore, despite being melee character. I can sneak behind anything, and then destroy them, laughing at all the beautiful spells cast at me, that I just avoid like they don't exist (except 1 at the d20 of course). There are lots of other bonuses too.
Monks get some of these abilities too. I think melee class are no more challenging, but if you didn't plan your classes well, you'll feel it later at higher levels, against higher level foes.

[Fiberfar]

Monks are clearly better when they stay pure : the class is made so that you lose a lot if you multiclass.
But multiclassing can be a huge boost for some classes.
For example, I like the Ranger class. But with Shadowdancer mixed carefully into it, I destroy everything in the OCs, especially once I reach 10th level.
And that's without even using all the Ranger abilities (like the powerful animal companion in 1.68+) and Shadowdancer abilities.
Of course, I use a true Ranger : DEX based and light armor with dual wielding and rapier (6+ attacks/round).
The Shadowdancer addition (carefully planned, or it becomes inefficient) allows you to escape nearly all zone damage spells.
That's why I don't fear spellcasters anymore, despite being melee character. I can sneak behind anything, and then destroy them, laughing at all the beautiful spells cast at me, that I just avoid like they don't exist (except 1 at the d20 of course). There are lots of other bonuses too.
Monks get some of these abilities too. I think melee class are no more challenging, but if you didn't plan your classes well, you'll feel it later at higher levels, against higher level foes.

I hate to ruin your builds but I love it when my mage meets a rogue/shadow dancer. Easiest thing around to kill

[GoldDragon]

I tend to agree with the OP. I find Melee characters to be difficult, but can most of the time, breeze thru with magic. Especially with the Archmage (PRC mod)

Spoiler

and that mastery of shapes and mastery of Elements feats that he/she gets

[Rockdomchick]

I've not played with any magic casters (I've only played the game and expansions once). My character was a pure ranger up until, I think level 13/14, then I started to gain rogue levels so I could open chests and disarm traps. I found a lot of the battles hard, particularly when fighting against spellcasters or dragons, and it irritated me sometimes when I'd popped in here to find out something and someone mentioned casually that they'd "battled with so and so and killed him with one (insert spell here)"!
Many a time I died trying to kill various monsters and swore at the pc in doing so! But saying that it was immensly satisfying when I finally did it!

[Ookaze]

I hate to ruin your builds but I love it when my mage meets a rogue/shadow dancer. Easiest thing around to kill

Except that my build is a Ranger/Shadowdancer, which is not the same thing at all (better BAB, # of attacks, favored enemies, high criticals, high HP, as hard to hit, hide in plain sight, + shadowdancer skills).

What you say is strange too, as if you meet a rogue, he should have stabbed you already when you see it, and if he gets initiative (high chances), most mages can't survive.

[Fiberfar]

Except that my build is a Ranger/Shadowdancer, which is not the same thing at all (better BAB, # of attacks, favored enemies, high criticals, high HP, as hard to hit, hide in plain sight, + shadowdancer skills).

What you say is strange too, as if you meet a rogue, he should have stabbed you already when you see it, and if he gets initiative (high chances), most mages can't survive.

I want to go on the offensive now

[Show-off mode]
Okay, my mage has Epic warding, true seeing, mestil's acid breah, flame shield and at least 6 maximised missile storm's available at all time
[/Show-off mode]


Of course that is just me. No class is better than the other as long as the player knows how to use them to the max. I'm not saying I can beat every rogue or ranger. I do find rogues easier to kill because of their low fortitude and will though. I've been defeated countless of times on servers where you can't get immunity to sneak attack and such.

[dragon wench]

Just to update here, I've deduced that *a lot* depends on the type of melee class you actually use.
I have just brought my monk into the start of chapter three (HoTU) and she's practically unstoppable... :speech: The only place where I had problems and could not proceed (not critical anyway) was against a certain two entities on the final level of Maker's Island.
Indeed... I'm seriously beginning to think that maybe monks are far too overpowered...

We'll see how it goes though... I hear, speaking of monks, that one battle is quite nasty, so I'll be quite curious to see how my monk fares there.

[Noober]

No class is better than the other as long as the player knows how to use them to the max.

False. On an unrestricted PvP-enabled server Sorcerers are the best. If you lose, its because you were careless. Think about all the commonly banned spells...IMGS, Time Stop and sometimes Bigby's, Horrid Wilting etc. DND was never made for PvP balance.

Just to update here, I've deduced that *a lot* depends on the type of melee class you actually use.
I have just brought my monk into the start of chapter three (HoTU) and she's practically unstoppable... The only place where I had problems and could not proceed (not critical anyway) was against a certain two entities on the final level of Maker's Island.
Indeed... I'm seriously beginning to think that maybe monks are far too overpowered...

If you're talking about pure classes, Monk is probably the only one which is decent at high levels (assuming you don't come across some High DR enemy). I can't see single-class melee coming close in effectiveness to multi-classed builds. The main attraction of melee builds in HOTU is Devastating Critical, which unfortunately pure Monks are unable to exploit.

[Ookaze]

False. On an unrestricted PvP-enabled server Sorcerers are the best. If you lose, its because you were careless. Think about all the commonly banned spells...IMGS, Time Stop and sometimes Bigby's, Horrid Wilting etc. DND was never made for PvP balance

That's not true at all. DND was made for balance, but in your case, even if we're talking cRPG (which is less balanced, and DND 3 is also less balanced), you're assuming A LOT to say it's not.
You're assuming that your sorcerer is on a ring with full spells against another character, with high protections already on, with an adversary that doesn't have any powerful item. Human characters are far different from computer controlled ones.
The only true thing is that DND wasn't made for single player.
Some spells are banned, some feats are banned too, but that's mostly because of how most people play : they rush around, so they're sure to be killed by a careful player, any class they may be. Banned features are mostly banned for gameplay : people don't like getting OHKO.

The main attraction of melee builds in HOTU is Devastating Critical, which unfortunately pure Monks are unable to exploit

Of course that's not true at all, except if you think stealth characters are not melee characters. It's true that they double as long range characters to be mostly efficient.
IMHO that's why the OC are so easy with my build. I never use my animal companion (a panther), because if I do, even the strongest mages die too fast : they can't launch any spells, taking lots of sneak attacks, which hit them hard despite their high protections.
Stealth characters is another way to play, which is always forgotten it seems. And it's pretty efficient.
After that, it all comes down to skill and chance, as to who will win in PvP.

But getting back on topic, in the OCs, most deadly foes use very dangerous breath attacks. Even these are killed without problem by my stealth character, without using most of the class benefits (like the animal companion, which is too deadly since 1.68+, or range weapons), in D&D Hardcore rules.
So even if it's harder with melee characters in the OCs, it's already far too easy.

[Fiberfar]

False. On an unrestricted PvP-enabled server Sorcerers are the best. If you lose, its because you were careless. Think about all the commonly banned spells...IMGS, Time Stop and sometimes Bigby's, Horrid Wilting etc. DND was never made for PvP balance.

Unrestricted servers with banned spells

[Noober]

That's not true at all. DND was made for balance, but in your case, even if we're talking cRPG (which is less balanced, and DND 3 is also less balanced), you're assuming A LOT to say it's not.

Alright, perhaps it is intended to be somewhat balanced (though the fact that there have been no patch changes balancewise makes this statement dubious), it doesn't change the fact that it isn't even close to balanced.

You're assuming that your sorcerer is on a ring with full spells against another character, with high protections already on, with an adversary that doesn't have any powerful item.

Umm...no. If you're talking about naked duelling there is no chance at all for anything to approach a caster. I can get 40+ AC without a single item on, and don't get me started on damage reduction and concealment. And regardless, what gives you the delusion that you can kill me before I can get my buffs up (or Timestop + IGMS you dead)? Have you even duelled a single caster before? Though I admit, I assume that I did remember not to start duelling with 0 spells memorised.

Some spells are banned, some feats are banned too, but that's mostly because of how most people play : they rush around, so they're sure to be killed by a careful player, any class they may be. Banned features are mostly banned for gameplay : people don't like getting OHKO.

Uhh...they are banned because they are blatantly overpowered. Do you really think that Time Stop and IGMS are balanced? Only ONE feat is somewhat often banned, Devastating Critical, but that doesn't save you from 480 pure magic damage a round under 50% concealment, 80+ AC, and if really desperate Timestop (with Greater Sanctuary to retreat of course).

Of course that's not true at all, except if you think stealth characters are not melee characters.

Are you talking about sneak attack, the attack that doesn't work dragons, undead, constructs and every other challenging enemy (or player that isn't stupid enough to neglect True Sight)?

IMHO that's why the OC are so easy with my build.

The OC is easy with practically any mildly thoughout build.

taking lots of sneak attacks, which hit them hard despite their high protections.

Yeah, because True Sight really gives you lots of sneak attacks /sarcasm.

Stealth characters is another way to play, which is always forgotten it seems. And it's pretty efficient.

It's forgotten because True Sight exists.

After that, it all comes down to skill and chance, as to who will win in PvP.

No, it comes down to how many Isaac's you can take or whether you can survive a Dev. Crit (alright...on occaision actual damage sometimes counts). Of course this assumes you are playing vanilla HotU. Please, Ookaze, actually try duelling before you spout your nonsense like a Diablo pub.

Unrestricted servers with banned spells

Uhhh...make sense please/read post carefully.

[Xandax]

Come now people, play nice and with less jabs/insults thrown at each other, lest the topic needs closing down.
So if wanting to debate various builds and their chances towards each other - which in my view in threads like this always end up being hypothesis thrown at hypothesis, please do so civil and cool headed.

Or if feeling the need to pound on each other, load up a multiplayer game and try out your strategies/builds in practices (or take it to the PM)

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