Watchers Keep ending ?spoiler?

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:30 am

I started WK early on in BG2 and took my time over it - I did up to the machine, got the improvements, went back to the city quests for a while and went back to the keep where I completed it as far as the final seal. I went away without resolving the final issue with Odrin running to Demagorgon. I went off and did Underdark (except where Umber Hulks were unavoidable) - which incidentally involved wholescale slaughter in Us Natha - as I couldn't do the quests without fighting hulks (which crashes my system) - so, I spoke to the dragon and then walked through the drow city - grabbed the eggs and slaughtered everything that crossed my path - the dual-wielding CF/Hindo's doom katanas slicing and dicing everything in my path. not as much fun as the quests and less XP, but I got through, back to Andalon and up and out.
bumped into Drizzt and recruited his party, same with the shadow thieves and the Order of the Radiant Heart. then I decided to get the XP for concluding Watchers Keep. I thought Bodhi's crew might stretch my party so an extra level or two for negative plane protections etc.

anyhow - that's the point of where my party were at, stage wise - level 23 fighter plus clerics mages in late teens - so level 9 spells available to Nalia.
anyhow, go back to chat to Demagorgon and he goes ape - no conversation, just summons up mariliths - not just one or two but 3/4 at a time - I had around 8 around me at one time - so legged it to the level above - thank goodness they don't follow.
patched up the party - which involved raising Aerie without her equipment and got her re-provisioned by taking bits form other party members. handy having elven chain as well as bracers - Nalia doesn't get spells disabled with it, although Aerie did. go back down and all is quiet. the mariliths and whatever else was summoned has gone and I use wizard-eye to find Demagorgon who is lurking in the bottom arena.

now I admit that I had tried to take on demagorgon before from a saved game and got slaughtered every time - did manage to cause him damage with combination of breach/bolt of glory, but blew it in the end. so I knew his MR was very high.

he also never failed to save against the silver sword insta-kill, which seemed unfair when I had to be brave enough to send the fighter one on one with it in the hope of a quick kill.

I had some hope because no monsters were being summoned to chase me down unlike when I first attacked - I thought he was weakening and that a breach plus 10 attacks with the silver sword would work - yet it didn't and I had to run away time after time with almost no damage being done - 1 point at a time when I hit. I decided that would never do and that I should return the silver sword under its guarantee for failing to vorpal.
I decided to be a bit more chaotic and fight fire with fire or rather magic with magic.

I decided to lay a combination of area effect spells - sphere of chaos, death fog & cloudkill and then make sure Demagorgon was tempted into the killing zone by sending summoned creatures to fight him. protected and hasted undead warriors were best because the magic Demagorgon used often didn't work on them and they could survive for a while on the killing floor.

adding breaching got more damage done quicker. at least using breach, some damage was done. having lost the casters who breached, I went away without their kit and up a level where I raised them and rested them. back down, I sent hasted undead warriors to draw Demagorgon away from the equipment and sent hasted characters to collect the most important kit. back with more normal protections, I then decided to saturate the area with area effects spells again.

THE POINT
whilst I was laying the barrage of area effects, I noticed that Demagorgon sometimes took damage even before breach had been cast - so I tried my old 'cheese' tactic of 25 firing cloudlkills into the area - eventually it was bye-bye Demagorgon. now the anti-cheese brigade may say that was cheating in some way because I didn't stand toe ot toe with Demagorgon in my underwear trying to hit it with a +1 Kipper-tie, but the I think it was a fair tactic - it was limited space, I used protected undead warriors to keep demagorgon in the area I wanted to barrage and I did not simply set out to barrage him to death without him knowing he was being attacked. I lost all 5 party members at one time and the casters more than once, but I feinted with summoned attackers to get their equipment back so they could fight on.
Minsc naturally ran straight at Demagorgon when he killed Aerie who was breaching him as he fought my undead and Anomen actually lost his nerve and ran straight into danger. I had rod of resurrection to use to bring back Anomen who then raised the Aerie and then they raised the rest. my bag of holding had spare armour etc for the forays back to reclaim the best equipment.
it took about 2 hours of trying various combinations of attacks before I tried the massive barrage but the way that I did it - losing party members and taking massive damage along the way didn't make it feel like the 'cheese' some posters will argue it was.

anyhow, Demagorgon is a pretty tough opponent and even level 20 plus fighters do about zero damage in a fight, so if anybody is going to try to take him on, some patience and ingenuity will be required as well as magic.
It does make one wonder how some solo'd characters could succeed with such a quest.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:47 pm

Demogorgon is one of the toughest oponents in the game. You're supposed to kill him right before going to face the last of the five, therefore maybe with more levels than you have, and with better items than you have.

I remember installing the original Demogorgon, it can be nastier than the default version, for more details check baldurdash.

Anyhoo, Demo cant:

Be killed by vorpal weapons
Be hit by lower level spells
Be struck easily by magic
Be caught with Time stop

And he can:

Be defeated by whirlwind technique
Be Breached
Be distracted for a small while with summons
Be tanked by someone with prot from level drain
Be disrupted by heavy melee parties with high level weapons and magic resistance

When trying to deal with him, one needs to be prepared. And yes, your tactic was cheesy, and I can think of better tactics, but I usually avoid the trouble of killing him cause he has no ubber items to spare.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:20 pm

Woah, Dem isn't affected by time stop?

I killed him with my monk, who was at the time 40. The only use a I had for Aierie was to seqeunce her spells in sucha way that she's a bomb. Strom of Vengance, Horid Wilting and Ressurection.

I had Edwin wearing the Robe of Vecna and using greater Aquility (sp?), just barrage Dem with spells. It was ownage. Sarevok also halped out as he was equipped with Gram.

I primarily cast debuffing spells on Dem.

Simulacarum (sp?) is definately a good spell to use there, for the reasons that you don't exhaust your mage's spell supply so quickly. Also, note that your clone can make more clones.

If you're level 31 and have good items, that spell will take you a long way.

Vhaliaor's Helm is also nice to have, as Two Sarevoks bashing Demmy causes some nice damage.

BG_DaDDy · Post by **BG_DaDDy** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:22 pm

the most cheese tactic- places bunch of spike traps before he reveals his form and bye bye. no challenge at all. :laugh:

traps are just too cheap in ToB.

if u want to fight demogorgon, fight legitly. Even at max level, demogorgon can be tough because of his demon summonings and spells.

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:01 pm

*sigh* I feel like I'm the only one that thought Demogorgon was a cakewalk. A single breach spell, a Greater Whirlwind from Minsc and a Greater Whirlwind from Keldorn and he was mince meat. I had a harder time with his bloody Mariliths and their annoying poison.

And while Demogorgon is supposedly the strongest enemy ever in a forgotten realms game, his guardians Nalmissra ans her party could kick his ass.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:37 am

I agree, Berethor, that their guardians are strong (and I dont know yet why the hell they're evil aligned, guarding an evil lord) but he's not as easy as that. You were using Keldy - with Carsy, am I right? The oh so cheesy dispell hability helped you aye? I'm sure it did. Anyways, improved whirlwind at some point in the fight is the ONLY way to bash him to death without ubber cheese.

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:22 am

makes sense

sheeesh - I didn't realise other people left Demaogorgon that late - no wonder I found it almost impossible to hit him. this time round - I haven't finished Amn yet, let alone made progress into ToB. As I said above, my eventual solution did feel a bit "cheesy" in that it was based on area effects, but I get the feeling that people on here consider area effects are almost a cheat, yet the enemies use them and the traps include them, so not using them also feels artificially limiting.

I had a catastrophic crash after my PC, solo, dealt with Bodhi's gang again - when I ask the machine to load, it crashes before asking me to choose a save game. looks like a re-install (again).

I downloaded some of the infinity engine tools last night - which is the clearest place for advice? (to either rid myself of umber hulks or fix them)

masteralef · Post by **masteralef** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:31 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]I agree, Berethor, that their guardians are strong (and I dont know yet why the hell they're evil aligned, guarding an evil lord) but he's not as easy as that. You were using Keldy - with Carsy, am I right? The oh so cheesy dispell hability helped you aye? I'm sure it did. Anyways, improved whirlwind at some point in the fight is the ONLY way to bash him to death without ubber cheese.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I don't recall him dispelling magic. Which means that with characters who have high attack per round ratings, Improved Haste may even work better.

Nimiety · Post by **Nimiety** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:48 pm

I solo'd him with a fighter/mage.

The trick I had (very nice tactic, btw) is improved alacrity, and then with the option set to auto-pause after a spell is cast, do a greater whirlwind, then a critical strike, then a power attack. Nothing can withstand that onslaught.

(Yes, alacrity removes the pause between fighter abilities too, so you can pack on several of those fighter HLA's on one body.)

The first time I tried it was with Kangaxx - a whirlwind and a powerattack later, and I laughed as I realized the mighty demi-lich had been stunned and was helpless!

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:36 pm

[QUOTE=masteralef]Actually, I don't recall him dispelling magic. Which means that with characters who have high attack per round ratings, Improved Haste may even work better.[/QUOTE]

His weapon (Carsy) dispell magic as well aye?

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:39 pm

Yep, but I don't know if it actually helped. I don't know how I got this far in the game without Keldorn and his quick Dispel and Carsomyr wielding greatness. To think, it was only 6 months ago that it was just me and Keldy standing, one dead Firkraag

.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:55 pm

When Throne of Bhaal was first released, I had the impression that Demogorgon was supposed to be too tough for the average player to beat. He's there so that even the best players will have a challenge to look forward to. Just as you can avoid a fight with all of the dragons in Shadows of Amn, you don't have to fight Demogorgon. In fact, the game (through the words of the NPCs) strongly encourages you to use the Ritual Scroll instead of fighting him. Nothing is forcing you except your own bloodlust and ego.

Kangaxx was also supposed to be nearly impossible to beat. If anyone says that he defeated Kangaxx on the first try without a walkthrough, there's a 100% chance that he is lying.

It took a lot of brainstorming to figure out how to do it. Nowadays, Kangaxx seems more like one of the regular monsters since strategies to beat him are so well-known. It's possible that players have invented strategies that the game designers never anticipated. That just goes to show how versatile this game really is--the tools at your disposal create endless possibilities.

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:05 am

[QUOTE=VonDondu]Kangaxx was also supposed to be nearly impossible to beat. If anyone says that he defeated Kangaxx on the first try without a walkthrough, there's a 100% chance that he is lying.

It took a lot of brainstorming to figure out how to do it. Nowadays, Kangaxx seems more like one of the regular monsters since strategies to beat him are so well-known. It's possible that players have invented strategies that the game designers never anticipated. That just goes to show how versatile this game really is--the tools at your disposal create endless possibilities.[/QUOTE]

I didn't know whack-a-Kangaax counted as a strategy

.

I have to admit I was level 32 when I fought Demogorgon and he got creamed. I also have to admit that Kangaax took me 6 tries. They shouldn't have put another Demi-Lich in Watchers Keep, I wanted Kangaax to be unique..

And what was a shrine to Demogorgon doing in the Kuo-Toa Dungeon??

IceDane · Post by **IceDane** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:09 am

I don't know what difficiculty you all are playing in, but I pwnt Demo so fast that I barely saw what he looked like. I was playing in novice, by the way. Does that invalidate my pwnage ?

Anyway, when I had slashed my way to the ending, and was about to fight Amelyssan in the end battle, I gave up in three tries, and decided to go do the watcher's keep first. When I fought Demo, sarevok was at 29, anomen at level 31(Cleric level, naturally), my mage at 24(Just a plain mage), Edwin at 23, minsc 24, and jan somewhere around those levels.
I just beefed all my characters up with some protections, my mage having his portrait face full of protections, and the others only blessde and protected from fear. Summoned a dark planetar, and I *think* some elementals, or an elemental prince, went down there. He talked nasty, and I spanked him all the way to the abyss..
Reckon it took me about 40 seconds to cream him.

Now, am I leet, or, like I asked above, does the difficulty invalidate my achievements?

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:15 am

[QUOTE=IceDane]I don't know what difficiculty you all are playing in, but I pwnt Demo so fast that I barely saw what he looked like. I was playing in novice, by the way. Does that invalidate my pwnage ?

[/QUOTE]

Yes, that does invalidate your Pwnage. He's far too easy, and you have a 5%luck bonus. Anyways, he's tough even at easy levels. As I remember it, he wont summon marileths when at the easiest level.

IceDane · Post by **IceDane** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:13 am

Ah, I figured as much.

But he does spawn marileths, and pretty many, too.

Funny, even though I've played BG since BGII came out, and finished the whole series except sword coast, I've never really done so at the higher difficulties. Guess that will be my next challenge.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:41 am

[QUOTE=IceDane]Ah, I figured as much.

But he does spawn marileths, and pretty many, too.

Funny, even though I've played BG since BGII came out, and finished the whole series except sword coast, I've never really done so at the higher difficulties. Guess that will be my next challenge.[/QUOTE]

Ah, after you do it on core, thigns are pretty much straightforward till insane. Just a bit more damage. After you play core, you can try Tactics mod for increased difficulty. There's a mod that makes Demogorgon tough (better, makes it reset to the original difficulty that was supposed to be implemented) and it can make him tough. I admit I havent been able to rip his heart there, and I avoid his fight.

snoopyofour · Post by **snoopyofour** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:21 am

Ok, the improved alacrity with fighter abilities is definetly the coolest thing I've ever heard of.

Fsujonn · Post by **Fsujonn** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:51 pm

Improved alacrity with fighters is a great idea. This is my first time through ToB (core rules) and I did not include any updates -- I will include these my second time around. Took about 40 seconds with two mages (Jan and myself) tossing breach spells, Edwin casting Warding Whip, Minsc and Valgyer whirlwinding away, and Anomen with Blade Barrier. Also had a Planetar and 2 Mordekains providing the distraction. My party was all high level at this time.

Jedi_Sauraus · Post by **Jedi_Sauraus** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:04 pm

Bah, he summoned up 3-4 pesky demons at a time ?? lol wait till you see Ascension style improved demagorgon. he casts an auto-timestop during which he summons up 20 or so demons kill some off and they just keep comming.

improved demagorgon was hard, Korgan nearly died at the end of the fight he was left with 5 hp

barely made it in time with a potion before enrage wore off. my tactic: prebuff everybody and just rush him with GWW. he can't summon up more if he's dead right

a few storms of vengence a abudazim's on the lesser demons and a well placed breach was all it took nothing can take 30 attacks per round for long from Crom, FoA +4 and Carsomyr.

to pass the final ascension I had to use some mega cheese which would also work against demagorgon: chain contingency 3x project image on self upon seeing enemy x3 mages = 9 planetars in 1 round even if the images get dispelled later. if they don't well thats 18

cheesy but not as much as launching 35 cloudkills into an area. how did u manage that btw

edit I do wacther's keep in ToB (core rules except when scribing scrolls whole game) as soon as I can get out of Saradush before going to the marching mountains

edit 2: GWW + Critical strike + deathblow OMG that works with improved alcracity wow you just made my day OMG fighter mages must OWN so bad