Duel Weapons and Morningstar.

[Acleacius]

Is it just NWN and NWN2 ignoring D&D rules or are the D&D rules broken?

Did anyone else notice or is bothered by the fact we can't Duel Morningstars?
This annoyed me in NWN and now again in NWN2, how is it possible that I can Duel 2 Great Swords, Great Axes and possibly any 2 weapons with the likes of Monkey Grip and not Morningstars a freaking Medkium weapon?

Anyone got the skinny on the rules or if its just some weird freakish Bioware rule.

[Siberys]

1st question of all, how did you dual wield 2 great swords even with monkey grip. That's a minimum of a -6/-6 penalty due to monkey grip and two weapon fighting requiring light weapons for the minimal penalty, and one handed having -4/-4 easy.

2, either they do allow it and something glitched in your game, or they don't allow it altogether because it's really just stupid to wield two great swords and hardly ever hit with them.

[Acleacius]

Humm maybe I wasn't clear?
You can wield 2 Great swords, I think anyone with Monkey Griip and Dual Wield can but as an example I had Khelgar do it, since it was kinda funny looking.

Though honestly im not sure what your asking me, do you mean how is it physically possible in the game or how could Khelgar possible hit anything?
It does exist and he does hit things so you have me confused.

What I am asking is why does either Bioware not let anyone no matter what (well I guess its possible to be modded, dunno) weild dual Morningstars, which are medium weapons?
Or is there some bazare new (?) rule in D&D that allows any 2 weapons to be weilded except 2 medium Morningstars?

If I am not making much sence its late but I at least think I am stating it accuratly.

[Siberys]

Wasn't really asking anything, merely making a statement based on the rules of DND compared to NWN.

NWN uses a lot of DND rules, but some might be slightly excluded for some odd reason that no one knows. I was just saying that either it isn't possible and shouldn't be possible or you have a glitch in the game.

[Acleacius]

Ahh, clear.

Though I thought the whole point of Monkey Grip was to weild 2 large (to your race, of course) weapons.

Even with that said, it still doesn't make sence (to me at least) why you can surly wield any two medium weapons except Morningstars, afaik.

As I have always thought that most anything was possible in D&D but usually it would tend to have balancing issues associated with it, as you mentioned the penelties.

[Siberys]

Actually that's not the point of monkey grip, the real point of monkey grip is to be able to wield larger sized weapons at a smaller penalty. Thus a large greatsword is able to be wielded with only a -2 penalty instead of a -4 and damage penalties.

All monkey grip is, is letting you effectively use larger weapons in combat without a tremendous penalty.

[koz-ivan]

Anyone got the skinny on the rules or if its just some weird freakish Bioware rule.

"chained" (flail / morningstar) weapons were not equipable in the off hand in nwn1 as well, the logic being that they would be near impossible to keep from getting tangled up.

i'm not sure if that's a "real" d&d rule.

to complicate things they didn't bother to animate off hand chain weapons in hindsight perhaps this was the issue to begin with - the difficulty in animating a realistic off hand wield

long story short the lack of animations would make implementation diffcult to say the least.

[Magrus]

Morningstars are by definition, spiked flails, and as such, it would be physically impossible to wield two of them with only two hands and not hurt yourself. I think this is the reason, that, or as mentioned, the animation factor. Why the official DnD rules never made this banned I do not know, but it makes perfect sense to me. I dunno if any of you have ever held one, but they are very to handle without catching a spike in the head, shoulder, or torso. Being trained in one would take care of this, but the use of one includes an incredible amount of dealing with balancing your weight and shifting it around a lot when swinging. Adding a second on the other side of your body means when you swung the one in your right hand, the one in your left hand would flop over to strike you in the head. :laugh:

[Acleacius]

Well am no expert but I was under the impression they were basicly Spiked Maces not Flails, also afaik a Flail has Spiked balls in the first place, so why have a second weapon exactly like a Flail with a differnt name?

Secondly I have never heard of a weapon that can't be used in either hand, though obviously with some sort of penelty, though once again I am no expert.

Well it certinaly could be the animation but afaik the animation is pretty crappy and I would imagine they would just use a generic Mace animation.

Now in Martial Arts its not uncommon to weild two Mace style weapons this includes having a sort of strap on the end of each handle, though not as common as seeing swords.

So would it be possible to find out if this is an oversight or just lack of willingness to use an generic animation?

Could I look at a paticular 2DA file or something?
I am not really experienced with NWN style editing but its possible I could stumble through it.
Or would such an exemption, be in an unaccessable file such as an encrypted exe?

Thanks.

Here is an example in Wikipedia
Morning star (weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

[Magrus]

Morningstars can be two things, the spanish spiked mace type thing, or a spiked flail weapon. I haven't seen how they decided to use them in NWN 2. However, if it is the latter, it would be impossible to use one in each hand in all out combat without risking impaling yourself. If it is a spiked mace, I could see someone doing it. They'd have to be fairly strong though.

[Acleacius]

Right, I am guessing a 4 lb weapon, since its listed as medium.
Ceritanly something someone with 18-24 Strength could easily pull off, well putting in prespective as other dual weapons.

I really hope there is a solution to this as they have always been my weapon of choice.

[bushwhacker2k]

Dual Wielding Greatswords

Meh, I think Monkey Gripped Dual Greatswords works fine

My Half-Orc Ranger/Frenzied Berserker does fine with them :O

[Acleacius]

Heh, I am not knocking Dual anything.
I just want to know why (apparently) Bioware is preventing Morningstars from being Dualed, since at this point if it was a 3.5 D&D rule someone would have known it I am guessing.

[koz-ivan]

Heh, I am not knocking Dual anything.
I just want to know why (apparently) Bioware is preventing Morningstars from being Dualed, since at this point if it was a 3.5 D&D rule someone would have known it I am guessing.

that's the intresting part, it was a rule in nwn1 that more than likely got carried over to nwn2, 3.5 dnd is irrelevant in this case.

--

that being said nwn2 goes for the "big mace" version of morning stars - don't know why they didn't implement it, other than it wasn't an option in nwn1.

[Fljotsdale]

I have the v.3.5 Players Handbook, and I have just checked everything I could find relevant to wielding two weapons - and found nothing about any weapons being excluded - apart from the Dire Flail, which is considered as dual.

But I noticed that a REQUIREMENT for using two weapons was a minimum of 15 Dexterity.
But if you can Dual other weapons, I imagine you already have at least 15 Dex. So, in theory, at least, you SHOULD be able to use two morning stars (but 2 flails would be hell! :laugh: ). So it must be an in-game issue or a glitch, as already mentioned by others.

[Acleacius]

Thanks so much for looking that up.

Yes it would especially be hell, if a Flail Ball caused percing and bashing damage in certian sencitive areas.

Well this could actually mean its a bug as well and could be fixed.

Has anyone worked with NWN 1 Toolset know where this info could be found, i.e. would it be in the common 2DAs?


Thanks.