I really want to try this build out, but I can scarcely find any good info, and I'm new to the game so I don't know the ins and outs of every skill, feat etcetera yet. The main idea is that of an assassin who strikes from the shadows, dealing lethal blows with his fists, and then disappears again, but he should also be able to hold his own in a one-on-one fight. So I'd definitely need high hide & move silently, and good combat skills. There are some things I'm clueless about though:
(playing vanilla NWN btw, no SoU or HotU)
How many Rogue/Monk levels? Sneak attack damage rises with rogue levels, so keeping my rogue level low and just (ab)using it for the character creation skill points isn't an option. But monks get a nice couple of feats at higher levels that seem vital for the combat-oriented character I'm creating.
Regarding those monk feats: is Ki strike really necessary when fighting bare-fisted, or can I still deal magic attacks when I equip one of the monk gloves? If I do, I can forego Ki Strike and make a 9/11 Monk/Rogue, giving me a 6d6 sneak attack IIRC. If not, I'd have to settle with the opposite (11/9)
Str or Dex focus? Dex is very important for the rogue, but I'd still like to be able to deal damaging non-sneak attacks. If I go the dex route I'll probably pick up Weapon Finesse too. Also, since I won't be wearing armour, dex should help my AC.
Wis or Int? Wis will give me more AC, Int more skillpoints. Is the +1 or +2 AC bonus worth it, compared to the extra skill points per level?
Any advice would be appreciated
Viable Monk/Rogue build?
- moltovir
- Posts: 1072
- Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:00 am
- Location: Out of Brynn's longbow range
- Contact:
Viable Monk/Rogue build?
"We are at a very serious moment dealing with very serious issues and we are not focusing on the name you give to potatoes" - Nathalie Loisau
IMHO it is not worth it in NWN as they did not fix the feats to allow for using some of them for monk unarmed damage properly if I remember correctly. Maybe there is a patch I am clueless about though so here goes an idea:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 10
May need to modify if you pick a race with adjustments.
Pump Dex as you level. Higher Initiative, Ref saves and AC are all going to be very useful for you with a base of +2 modifiers in all of the other attributes.
Skills: Focus on Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Disable Device, Search, Tumble, and Use Magic Device. The rest should really be if you have extra.
Feats: Weapon Finesse: Unarmed (Think that doesn't work with unarmed strikes as it is supposed to though )
Ok, now, I lost some of the discs to my NWN game, so I can neither re-install it or play it and therefore cannot test out which feats didn't work properly, so I think I will leave feats alone aside from that. However, I will get into the class breakup.
First off, the NWN games nerfed the monk class. Nothing major, as most of the game revolves around straight survival and killing, but they completely ditched some of the monk class abilities as they didn't use the things they apply to at all in the game. So I will break down what you will gain if you go past 9th level in either class for you then:
Monk:
Level 10: Ki Strike Lawful, +1 to Monk AC (+2 total), +1 BAB, +1 All saves
Level 11: Greater Flurry (3 attacks at full attack bonus + extra based on high BAB), Immunity to all Poisons, +1 BAB
Rogue:
Level 10: +1 BAB, +1 Ref Save, Special Rogue Ability
Level 11: +1 BAB, +6d6 (total)
Now, to put this bluntly, if you are going for a character that can deal damage in melee, you want to go higher in monk. Not only do you get a bonus attack, but you do not lose out on BAB, you get higher HD, AC, Poison Immunity, and a bonus to 2 extra saves, plus a free weapon upgrade. The only thing truly worthwhile that you would be losing is the 10th level rogue Special ability. Without a high Int, the only truly worthwhile and all-purpose one is Improve Evasion, which monks get at level 9 standard.
I would say the real question involved IMHO, is whether to go 13 Monk/ 7 Rogue or 11/9.
If you go for 13 monk levels, you pick up on average 2 extra HP, it evens out with BAB and Saves so the monk wins there by a small bit. You also get +10 to speed, 2d6 unarmed damage, the Abundant Step ability (not sure if/how that works in NWN to be honest. The BIG thing, is spell resistance at monk level 13. That would give you SR 23. Far better than a +2d6 to sneak attacks I think, depending on how you level your character.
However, you would lose out on Improved Uncanny Dodge. SR 23 isn't anything godly as a 20th level character, but it would give moderate protection against mid-level fodder type wizards and sorcerers and the like. I don't know if you deal with many of those in the NWN game. I never played very far into any of the suppliments besides HoTU. It will basically give 13th level wizards/sorc a 50% miss rate however, with their chance of succeeding climbing each level the wizard has higher than 13. This really only becomes important if you decide to go through all of your monk levels first and in one shot or not. If you do your rogue levels first and then monk, it becomes less valuable. Against a 17th level Wizard, it is almost like applying the casting failure penalty of wearing Scale Mail armor or 25% chance of failure. Still, 1 out of 4 spells thrown your way not affecting you could be the difference between life and death. FYI, chances are that by the end of the game, your "fodder" encounters will be near to 17-18th level for the most part.
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 10
May need to modify if you pick a race with adjustments.
Pump Dex as you level. Higher Initiative, Ref saves and AC are all going to be very useful for you with a base of +2 modifiers in all of the other attributes.
Skills: Focus on Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Disable Device, Search, Tumble, and Use Magic Device. The rest should really be if you have extra.
Feats: Weapon Finesse: Unarmed (Think that doesn't work with unarmed strikes as it is supposed to though )
Ok, now, I lost some of the discs to my NWN game, so I can neither re-install it or play it and therefore cannot test out which feats didn't work properly, so I think I will leave feats alone aside from that. However, I will get into the class breakup.
First off, the NWN games nerfed the monk class. Nothing major, as most of the game revolves around straight survival and killing, but they completely ditched some of the monk class abilities as they didn't use the things they apply to at all in the game. So I will break down what you will gain if you go past 9th level in either class for you then:
Monk:
Level 10: Ki Strike Lawful, +1 to Monk AC (+2 total), +1 BAB, +1 All saves
Level 11: Greater Flurry (3 attacks at full attack bonus + extra based on high BAB), Immunity to all Poisons, +1 BAB
Rogue:
Level 10: +1 BAB, +1 Ref Save, Special Rogue Ability
Level 11: +1 BAB, +6d6 (total)
Now, to put this bluntly, if you are going for a character that can deal damage in melee, you want to go higher in monk. Not only do you get a bonus attack, but you do not lose out on BAB, you get higher HD, AC, Poison Immunity, and a bonus to 2 extra saves, plus a free weapon upgrade. The only thing truly worthwhile that you would be losing is the 10th level rogue Special ability. Without a high Int, the only truly worthwhile and all-purpose one is Improve Evasion, which monks get at level 9 standard.
I would say the real question involved IMHO, is whether to go 13 Monk/ 7 Rogue or 11/9.
If you go for 13 monk levels, you pick up on average 2 extra HP, it evens out with BAB and Saves so the monk wins there by a small bit. You also get +10 to speed, 2d6 unarmed damage, the Abundant Step ability (not sure if/how that works in NWN to be honest. The BIG thing, is spell resistance at monk level 13. That would give you SR 23. Far better than a +2d6 to sneak attacks I think, depending on how you level your character.
However, you would lose out on Improved Uncanny Dodge. SR 23 isn't anything godly as a 20th level character, but it would give moderate protection against mid-level fodder type wizards and sorcerers and the like. I don't know if you deal with many of those in the NWN game. I never played very far into any of the suppliments besides HoTU. It will basically give 13th level wizards/sorc a 50% miss rate however, with their chance of succeeding climbing each level the wizard has higher than 13. This really only becomes important if you decide to go through all of your monk levels first and in one shot or not. If you do your rogue levels first and then monk, it becomes less valuable. Against a 17th level Wizard, it is almost like applying the casting failure penalty of wearing Scale Mail armor or 25% chance of failure. Still, 1 out of 4 spells thrown your way not affecting you could be the difference between life and death. FYI, chances are that by the end of the game, your "fodder" encounters will be near to 17-18th level for the most part.
"You can do whatever you want to me."
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
- moltovir
- Posts: 1072
- Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:00 am
- Location: Out of Brynn's longbow range
- Contact:
Thanks! I think I'll settle with a 13/7 build then. I created him today, with slightly different stats (12 con, 15 dex), but I'm following your advice in everything else. I'll give you an update in the near future to see if it works out
"We are at a very serious moment dealing with very serious issues and we are not focusing on the name you give to potatoes" - Nathalie Loisau
Don't forget that monks move faster with every extra level you get, so extra monk levels would gain you greater speed.
Also, monks get (not sure at which level) an automatic half damage from elemental effects. When you save, you get nada. So even with a 50% or 25% chance of an enemy mage missing his spell, the other 50/75% results in only half damage anyway.
The other thing you may consider, for a HoTU monk, is going the assassin prestige class once you level up enough. You should be able to ramp the requisites up with enough and wise spending of feats and skills. Thereafter, you not only get a sneak attack, but it's a paralysing Death Attack, and you get the spells and other bonuses as well. Not sure it would be worth it in SoU or NWN, but it could easily be worth it in HoTU where you can get a decent amount of levels in monk and assassin.
Also, monks get (not sure at which level) an automatic half damage from elemental effects. When you save, you get nada. So even with a 50% or 25% chance of an enemy mage missing his spell, the other 50/75% results in only half damage anyway.
The other thing you may consider, for a HoTU monk, is going the assassin prestige class once you level up enough. You should be able to ramp the requisites up with enough and wise spending of feats and skills. Thereafter, you not only get a sneak attack, but it's a paralysing Death Attack, and you get the spells and other bonuses as well. Not sure it would be worth it in SoU or NWN, but it could easily be worth it in HoTU where you can get a decent amount of levels in monk and assassin.
Ah, forgot the speed thing. Yes, at 13th level of monk you would have a +40 ft/round increase to speed. Effectively a +133% increase to a base humans speed.
As far as the elemental damage thing mentioned above, there is no such thing. Unless you are interpreting the effects of the Evasion ability without knowing what it is or does? Evasion negates damage from effects that allow a reflex save if you succeed in your save. Improved Evasion reduces the damage to 1/2 if you fail and none if you save. Which, would include your typical Fireball and the like type spells and effects.
As far as the elemental damage thing mentioned above, there is no such thing. Unless you are interpreting the effects of the Evasion ability without knowing what it is or does? Evasion negates damage from effects that allow a reflex save if you succeed in your save. Improved Evasion reduces the damage to 1/2 if you fail and none if you save. Which, would include your typical Fireball and the like type spells and effects.
"You can do whatever you want to me."
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
"Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?"
"So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"