And I thought Microsoft can't be more controlling...

[Kipi]

[url="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061208.gtmsoffice08/BNStory/Technology/home"]Microsoft Office format approved as new standard for data[/url]

BRIAN BERGSTEIN

Associated Press

BOSTON — A data format used in Microsoft Corp.'s prevalent Office software line has been approved as an international standard — a move aimed at preserving access to documents created with the package for years to come.

Companies and governments had expressed concern that documents created with Microsoft's proprietary technology might be impossible to read at some point in the future if Microsoft shifted to a format incompatible with current versions.

For example, Massachusetts state government decided that in 2007 it would begin storing new records in a standard free of proprietary controls — namely, the OpenDocument format used in open-source software.

The groundswell threatened to hurt demand for Microsoft's highly profitable Office products, which include such programs as Word and Excel.

So last year, Microsoft proposed making its “Open XML” format — which is the default format in its newly released Office 2007 line of software — an international standard that could be licensed for free.

That would allow anyone to build products that access information stored in Office documents, similar to how Adobe Systems Inc. lets outside developers create programs that work with Adobe's PDF.

Microsoft submitted the proposal with Ecma International, a Geneva-based industry group that establishes technical standards, and got backing from other players, including rival Apple Computer Inc. Ecma International announced Thursday its approval of Office Open XML as a standard, touting the step as vital for document creation and archiving.

“Hopefully this will allow some of the supposed conflict to die down,” said Alan Yates, general manager for information-worker strategy at Microsoft. “Now that OpenXML is an open international standard, we think that people will essentially have much greater trust that it's around for the long term.”

In a statement, Massachusetts' acting chief information officer, Bethann Pepoli, said the state will review the standards.

“We've engaged in a multi-year campaign to ensure the openness and standardization of the documents that government uses,” Pepoli said. “Microsoft's decision to bring their new software format to an international standards body and today's vote validate our efforts to adopt open standards.”

[dragon wench]

.... hardly surprising... Though I suppose at least they're dealing with the proprietary issue..
Reminds me of the fact that they apparently allow something like only three installations of Vista... under the same computer and owner, before demanding a new Vista purchase

Honestly... could MS possibly get any more grasping?
And then they wonder why people hate them so much!

[Kipi]

Honestly... could MS possibly get any more grasping?
And then they wonder why people hate them so much!

Yes they can. Just wait the day when the operating system of you mobile phone is made by Microsoft...

[dragon wench]

Yes they can. Just wait the day when the operating system of you mobile phone is made by Microsoft...

Yea Gods, I hope not!!
I have a nice little Samsung phone with relatively few bells and whistles, I'd like to keep it that way!

[Xandax]

While I'm starting to stay out of threads like this on various forums, because I find them inane, pure unquestioned biased, unfactual and well ...... "Dead Horse, meet stick".

.... hardly surprising... Though I suppose at least they're dealing with the proprietary issue..
Reminds me of the fact that they apparently allow something like only three installations of Vista... under the same computer and owner, before demanding a new Vista purchase
<snip>

Windows Vista Team Blog : News: Revision to Windows Vista retail licensing terms
(Oh, and the license was not so different from XP, especially considering the vast majority uses OEM versions which legally are tied to one computer)

So perhaps the big evil empire is not so big and evil either as they adapt to the customers.




If unhappy with Microsoft then don't buy it and use somebody else's products. It is a free market and peoples own choice of what they want to run and why.

[Kipi]

If unhappy with Microsoft then don't buy it and use somebody else's products. It is a free market and peoples own choice of what they want to run and why.

Would surely do that if there wasn't need for others to be able to open files I have made...

I actually have already moved out from Microsoft's products, like using Opera instead of IE and so on...

[Xandax]

Would surely do that if there wasn't need for others to be able to open files I have made...
<snip>

then convince others to change to other (superior) products, or find a method of exchanging data with them. Microsoft products can open a variety of other formats as well then just their word/excel.... and soon OpenXML making it easier. (Oh, I forgot, that was a controlling thing )

I actually have already moved out from Microsoft's products, like using Opera instead of IE and so on...

yet, you still complain about Microsoft products.... strange hold that company has.

[Silur]

@Xan: Take off that M$ SQL t-shirt! Can't you see it's brainwashing you? I would have very few issues with M$ (or Cisco, Oracle, Novell, Apple and any number of other dinosaurs) if they played by the same rules as normal companies. Since they don't, I think even those of us that try to avoid their grasp *do* have a right to complain, since their actions spill over on our turf. Need I mention the M$ - Novell agreement, or M$ vs EU?

@DW: There are numerous phones running M$ operating systems... even Samsung has one. Strangely enough, people buy them, and yes, they're virus ridden and buggy...

As for open document standards, there already is one; ODF. It's just that M$ didn't define it and are now working like crazy to avoid to have to implement it. Standards are really bad for M$ (as with all dinosaurs) since it gives people a choice. In my current assignment, I have been forced to purchase a M$ Word license to be able to write on the same documents as my client. So much for choice.

[Kipi]

yet, you still complain about Microsoft products.... strange hold that company has.

Well, that's because I haven't got totally out from their hold... I'm still using Windows, for example, as well as Office for the reasons stated before...


Oh, and convincing over 100 to turn out from Office would be quite a task, wuoldn't it?

[Xandax]

@Xan: Take off that M$ SQL t-shirt! Can't you see it's brainwashing you? I would have very few issues with M$ (or Cisco, Oracle, Novell, Apple and any number of other dinosaurs) if they played by the same rules as normal companies. Since they don't, I think even those of us that try to avoid their grasp *do* have a right to complain, since their actions spill over on our turf. Need I mention the M$ - Novell agreement, or M$ vs EU?
<snip>

Oh yeah, because no other company is in business to make money and makes various joint-ventures or other such agreements.

As for the MS vs. EU case, then I feel much of it is a travesty actually. I'd have loved it if MS just said that they'd stop supplying to Europe (although it would mean I had to learn to program something else, but that is easy) - but of course that wouldn't happen as Europe is a big market.
Microsoft is getting busted for the fact that other suppliers tie themselves to their platform and thus makes them number one. Much of the "problems" people have with Microsoft is actually not Microsoft's problem, but all the third party suppliers which tie themselves which the customer then sees as lock-in, but then blames upon Microsoft.
Much of the monopolistic laws it runs into, is merely due to market share, and not because it acts differently then most other supplier.

Most arguments I've seen in these cases from "ordinary" people stems down to this:
When Microsoft bundles software - it is "exploitation" of market position, but if other companies does it, it is "clever buisness strategy".
If Microsoft doesn't bundle software, they want the customer to buy additionally and exploit them. If another company doesn't bundle, they provide freedom of choice for the customer.

I'm sure if *nix (you know, it's only free if your time cost nothing) or Apple "Fisher Price - My First Computer" suddenly got popular with other then geeks and envious people, that double standard would ensure even more.
It is popular to hate Microsoft - and while the company is not a poster child of "la la -land" many other companies are not either


Sorry if I don't take anything said seriously about this topic anymore as it is a jumping on bandwagon. And I'm not particular "pro-Microsoft" regardless of what people might think - I use few Microsoft products, but I use them because I feel they are superior; if they weren't - I'd be using something else instead of ranting like a kid about things which ultimately is my choice.
I'm just sick of biased and naive one-tracked bandwagons.

<snip>
Oh, and convincing over 100 to turn out from Office would be quite a task, wuoldn't it?

So Microsoft is at fault for those 100 others? Funny - I'd blame those 100 others instead.

[Silur]

Oh yeah, because no other company is in business to make money and makes various joint-ventures or other such agreements.

In case you didn't notice, I did include a number of other companies with similar principles. Just because several giant companies are playing the system doesn't make it right, though. This is a bandwagon fallacy.

As for the MS vs. EU case, then I feel much of it is a travesty actually. <snip>

You conveniently missed the part where M$ is actively controlling who gets to interface to their systems and prevents competition on any number of levels from pressuring systems retailers to software patent bullying.

Most arguments I've seen in these cases from "ordinary" people stems down to this:
When Microsoft bundles software - it is "exploitation" of market position, but if other companies does it, it is "clever buisness strategy".
If Microsoft doesn't bundle software, they want the customer to buy additionally and exploit them. If another company doesn't bundle, they provide freedom of choice for the customer.

I do think bundling is a bad idea, but I don't have a problem with it per se as long as I have the choice to unbundle the crap. This was the travesty of the US litigation against M$ which also completely missed the point.

I'm sure if *nix (you know, it's only free if your time cost nothing) or Apple "Fisher Price - My First Computer" suddenly got popular with other then geeks and envious people, that double standard would ensure even more.

You seem to swallow the M$ propaganda fine enough, but the point you're making is still valid. Apple is a horrid company in terms of tie-ins and lock-downs, but it's customer base is more like a devout religious following rather than regular customers. The fact that they have been growing as much as they have is worrying for the same reason any growth in Southern Baptism is bad, but purely based on their products they are a better choice than M$ simply because they have reduced the complexity of the problem. I do not underestimate the difficulty of building an operating system that can handle an exponentially growing variety of hardware, but the question no one is asking is why?

It is popular to hate Microsoft - and while the company is not a poster child of "la la -land" many other companies are not either

Again, by this reasoning avoiding taxes should be legal, since "everyone is doing it". I don't agree with the sentiment that just because they can is a valid reason why they should. M$ is a morally corrupt company, just like millions of others. The objective should be to force companies to take moral responsibility if they're incapable of doing so on their own. Starting with the really big ones gives the most amount of outcome.

Sorry if I don't take anything said seriously about this topic anymore as it is a jumping on bandwagon. And I'm not particular "pro-Microsoft" regardless of what people might think - I use few Microsoft products, but I use them because I feel they are superior; if they weren't - I'd be using something else instead of ranting like a kid about things which ultimately is my choice.

For most people, it isn't a choice. I doubt it is a choice for you either, most of the time. M$ is so dominant that using some of their tools is parallel to driving on the right side of the road - anyone chosing something else is going to cause serious problems. I have no objection to that in terms of legislature, but in the so called "freedom of choice" market economy, this is generally seen as monopolistic practices that are seriously detrimental to that freedom you so claim to uphold.

I'm just sick of biased and naive one-tracked bandwagons.

Considering how your post is full of bandwagon fallacies, this statement strikes me as absurd. What you mean is perhaps that you prefer being on a different "biased and naive one-tracked bandwagon".

[dragon wench]

There really is *not* that much choice when it comes to software, MS has a dominent share of the market.

Sure, I use non IE browsers, non MS-related spyware etc. Indeed, I try to avoid MS as much as I can.
But, so many programs are designed to run exclusively on Windows, it's hard to get away from them completely, Windows is pervasive and has its tentacles everywhere. Whenever I'm able to get a new computer, I'll likely see if I can run Linux on at least one hard drive, but until then I'm stuck with Windows.

The other problem is MS Word... I will fully concede that the most recent version of MS Word is actually very good. But the true reason I ditched Open Office in its favour is because while OO worked great on my machine, any document I sent elsewhere couldn't be read unless the other person also had Open Office. This meant I had to convert to something like Word Pad before sending anything anything out. Needless to say, this was extremely annoying if the document had a lot of formatting on it.
The difficulty here lies in the fact that the majority of people use Word.

Incidentally, I generally find that small programs that do not come from big names are far superior. I also hate Adobe with all of its unnecessary bells and whistles. Foxit is a far superior PDF reader, and it loads up nice and quickly (unlike Adobe). Equally, I generally avoid the big names when it comes to security software. The small companies are often far better and their products are not bloated with all kinds of nonessential frills.

But...there's only so much you can really do.

@Xandax,
okay, thanks for the link, I wasn't aware that MS had revised Vista's terms of licensing. Still, the fact that they even conceived of the original terms *is* indicative.

[DaemonJ]

The other problem is MS Word... I will fully concede that the most recent version of MS Word is actually very good. But the true reason I ditched Open Office in its favour is because while OO worked great on my machine, any document I sent elsewhere couldn't be read unless the other person also had Open Office. This meant I had to convert to something like Word Pad before sending anything anything out. Needless to say, this was extremely annoying if the document had a lot of formatting on it.
The difficulty here lies in the fact that the majority of people use Word.

I have never encountered this problem while using OO. So long as you set the file filters to save the files in Word format you should be fine and so should your receiver.

[Xandax]

<snip>
Considering how your post is full of bandwagon fallacies, this statement strikes me as absurd. What you mean is perhaps that you prefer being on a different "biased and naive one-tracked bandwagon".

What you fail to grasp is that my post is merely a response using the same rhetoric which get spawned towards "M$" multiple times each and every occasion something with "M$" is mentioned.
But I guess it is alright when targeting "the evil empire" (as emphasized by your usage of "M$" instead of its real name). So when you tell me to take off the "M$ shirt" it is fine and fun, but when I say "*nix is only free if your time cost nothing" or when I call Apple for "Fisher Price" - then I'm using "M$" propaganda..... right. Because people can't see what Microsoft is or use their products without falling for propaganda.

So no - I do not prefer a "different" biased and naive bandwagon. I'll just use the rhetoric of one to mock it.
And at least I did not call the open source community communist, although it'll follow finely along the "M$" label mudslinging. But I guess if I did - I'd be using "M$" propaganda whereas you're just "joking"/in the right

I use Windows, Office and numerous other Microsoft products, because I find the software fully capable of satisfying my needs. Where they don't I use other software, amongst other Open Source products. Heck, I even use Apple products on occasions when they've made something which I find superior.
At least I have not fallen for the "anti M$" propaganda either and will not automatically assign attributes to "M$" and all their dealings, or any other company. I have an open mind and uses the tool for the job .... do you or are you just set in the anti-M$ propaganda?

It is customers and users who have given Microsofts position to them.

[dragon wench]

I have never encountered this problem while using OO. So long as you set the file filters to save the files in Word format you should be fine and so should your receiver.

Hmm... The problem I found is that when I saved documents in basic Word format, any of the formatting I had done did very odd things, and I just ended up with a complete mess. Since this was my resume... I needed something that I could send to other recipients.
Though, it's possible I may have been doing something very wrong, my tech skills can be a bit basic

[Silur]

@Xandax: It is not apparent that your entire post is a joke. I have reread it in the light of your latest response, and I still fail to see it. Besides your reference to *nix and Apple, which I did find humorous, I interpreted most of your comments as completely serious, and responded to them as such. I am not demonizing M$ specifically, but they are a pretty good example of a company misusing its position. In my book, they're right up there with Exxon and Andersen Consulting. If that is the anti-M$ bandwagon, well in that case I'm glad to be on it, but i resent you calling it biased and naive.

[Silur]

Hmm... The problem I found is that when I saved documents in basic Word format, any of the formatting I had done did very odd things, and I just ended up with a complete mess. Since this was my resume... I needed something that I could send to other recipients.
Though, it's possible I may have been doing something very wrong, my tech skills can be a bit basic

As long as you stick to Word 97 you're completely safe. In Word 2k, some formatting will go astray, and anything later than that gets fubar'ed very quickly. The M$ save format is not very well documented. There's an application available that translates Word 2k3 douments into ODF perfectly, but from there there's no going back.

[Vicsun]

Hmm... The problem I found is that when I saved documents in basic Word format, any of the formatting I had done did very odd things, and I just ended up with a complete mess. Since this was my resume... I needed something that I could send to other recipients.
Though, it's possible I may have been doing something very wrong, my tech skills can be a bit basic

Use CuteFTP to print things like your resume to PDF if you want to make certain the formatting stays intact. It'll also make you look more tech savvy to your potential employer

Word files aren't really meant to be transferred; MS Word is notoriously bad at keeping formatting - if you're using Office XP and your potential employer is using Office 2K, the readability of your document will mostly depend on the alignment of Jupiter's moons. Using a non-Microsoft product makes the situation much worse.

[DaemonJ]

You can also use OO to save your documents as PDF files as well, which is the current standard.

[Xandax]

<snip>If that is the anti-M$ bandwagon, well in that case I'm glad to be on it, but i resent you calling it biased and naive.

Well - calling things by their proper name is perhaps the first step of being taken seriously and unbiased.