The Efficacy of Bows

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:39 pm

I'm sure this is going to make me feel (and look

) like a total idiot... but after all of this time playing 2nd. edition rules... I confess I have a heck of a time figuring out sometimes which weapons are better than others...

I have a couple of different parties running through IWD. One of my parties is very missile heavy, and all members (except my paladin) are multi-classed as part fighters.
My fighter/thief and fighter/mage have amongst the highest kill count in my party, and I predominantly have them using bows.

My question is this, since I am still in the earlier stages (just cleaned out the first level of Dragon's Eye), I don't yet have access to some of the better bows in the game. So my two archer types each have a composite longbow and a shortbow +1 in their inventories.

The stats of the composite longbow are:
Damage - +2
To Hit Bonus - +1
Speed Factor - 7

Shortbow +1
THACO - +1
Damage - +1
Speed Factor - 5

Sorry if this has been covered at some point already, I just did a search under "bow," but I didn't really see anything.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:00 pm

The composite longbow is better.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:36 pm

Well, the to-hit bonus is the same for both bows, so in essence the choice is between 1 extra damage per hit and a slight speed factor difference. 1 extra damage per arrow adds up to a lot, meaning you'll kill monsters faster. The only way the speed difference helps you to avoid damage is if you are able to kill something with a shortbow just before it attacks, but would not have been able to kill it with the longbow because it's slightly slower - and it's not going to happen often with a speed factor difference of 2. If you were using a longbow instead of a shortbow to begin with, it's possible that whatever you killed might have died a round earlier anyway because of the extra damage. So all in all, the longbow is better.

A general rule of thumb is for an archer to use a longbow over a shortbow if at all possible. A little extra damage goes a long way (pun intended).

The vast majority of magical bows you find are longbows. Note that the first good (e.g. named) bow you find grants an extra shot per round, but it is not mentioned in the description.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:05 pm

Hi DW,

Aerich has some solid advice (always does). Without spoiling anything I will add that you are "just" about to the point in the game where some of the special (named) bows will begin to show up. Like Aerich, my preference is for the longbow or composite bow over the short bow. (All the short bows I find end up in the sell pile).

One of my parties is very missile heavy

As you have probably been finding out, missle heavy parties tend to work well in IWD1. I give all my party members "some" type of missle weapon, even the mage carries a sling.

Hope you're having fun!!

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:23 pm

Okay thanks guys!

It's weird... I *did* play this game a number of years ago, but I can't really remember much of it all

Although, that's not a bad thing, since it's like playing a new game.

Regarding the bows starting to appear... I did just find quite a nice crossbow on Presio, but I think it was random since I didn't get it with my other party. I haven't unearthed any good longbows yet though, and I tend to be pretty thorough, I also use the Alt key to highlight any hidden crannies and chests.
But... you get so besieged by enemies down in Dragon's Eye so it's always possible I missed stuff.

Yeah.... missile weapons go a *long* way in this game... I was shocked.. my fighter/druid is carrying just an ordinary +1 sling and regular bullets... a couple of times she's done 20 damage with it!

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:34 pm

Now, I'm not big on ranged weapons, I'm more of a self buffer/summon buffer guy, but I do have to say, ranged weapons, haste and Tenser's Transformation go an even longer way.

It's like... wow.

I tend to use crossbows a bit more. I don't really know why...

But yeah, if you though they were fast before, try combining them with certain spells and items for even greater effects.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:41 pm

@DW

my fighter/druid is carrying just an ordinary +1 sling and regular bullets... a couple of times she's done 20 damage with it!

Isn't it great!

Sling users get to add strength bonus unlike archers with their bows. So your fighter/druid gets to use her nice strength with both her melee and missle weapon.

Meant to mention in my last post that having at least one character with crossbow proficiency is good too because there are a couple of nice crossbows to be found, one especially in the 'Hand'. You might want to think about adding it as gained proficiency next time you gain one.

Although if I 'had' to pick only one I would go with bow simply because the best and greatest variety of missle ammo is available for bows (IMHO).

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:06 am

But yeah, if you though they were fast before, try combining them with certain spells and items for even greater effects.

That's almost too terrifying to contemplate! They seem to already do devastating amounts of damage

Isn't it great! Sling users get to add strength bonus unlike archers with their bows.

Ah... That explains why my fighter druid and fighter/cleric are cleaning up with their slings. My fighter/druid has 18/85 strength, and my fighter/cleric has 18/00 strength.

Regarding crossbow proficiency, just out of habit from BG2 (Keldorn), I gave my paladin 2 points in crossbow, and 2 points in great sword. Though he now also has another 2 points in halbard (I found a very nice halbard so decided to make sure I used it).

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:52 am

I recommend casting strength onto your druid for even more missile damage.

The "heavy crossbow of speed" you can find near Presio is indeed random. You can consider yourself lucky. I never got this crossbow which adds a second attack per round, only other stuff which is useless compared to this.

I disagree with Philos, except the rare random extremely powerful crossbow you found there's only one crossbow in the game which is better than a non-magical composite bow. And you won't get it before the last chapter.
In my first game my paladin also had crossbow specialisation, he did far less missile damage than the others until late in chapter6.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:11 am

[QUOTE=kmonster]The "heavy crossbow of speed" you can find near Presio is indeed random. You can consider yourself lucky. I never got this crossbow which adds a second attack per round, only other stuff which is useless compared to this.[/QUOTE]

That is really odd Kmonster, I always (without exception in a dozen or more games) find at least "one" heavy crossbow of speed, and quite often two. This is why I recommended 1 person having crossbow specialization.

Anymore than that would probably be a waste. I agree with you though that most crossbows aren't as good on average as the bows. Mayhaps just a matter of preference.

**minor spoiler**
I can't remember the exact location where inside but I always find a "heavy crossbow of speed" when I go to the 'Hand'.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:13 pm

kmonster wrote: The "heavy crossbow of speed" you can find near Presio is indeed random. You can consider yourself lucky. I never got this crossbow which adds a second attack per round, only other stuff which is useless compared to this.

This is odd... I don't think it was the Heavy Crossbow of Speed that I found..
On Presio's actual corpse, I picked up Ben Muller's Crossbow, which is neither listed in the GB item list, nor anywhere in Google that I could see.

It's made of purple wood, and it's stats are:

Damage- +2
THACO- +5
Speed- 4
Weight- 7

Has anyone else ever come across this crossbow, or is it simply the Heavy Crossbow of Speed already mentioned?

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:02 pm

I often found this crappy crossbow. Better than nothing, but a composite bow is far superior.

@Philos: I never found one in the hand. Maybe you're talking about the light cossbow of speed or a heavy crossbow of accuracy. The light crossbow of speed has the same number of attacks and does the same damage as a nonmagical composite bow, not that great.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:18 pm

kmonster wrote:I often found this crappy crossbow. Better than nothing, but a composite bow is far superior.

I don't know about crappy... My paladin is frequently getting hits worth 24 damage with it... not all that shabby in my books *shrug*

I am generally a (Composite) Longbow person, but I really don't find the crossbows in the game all that bad. However, it needs to be said, I'm not a powergamer... I try to roleplay my parties, so in my view variety in weapon skills is a bit more realistic. To each their own, I suppose

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:53 pm

The composite line of bows are better for high strength characters when you can find them. You want a composite +# to match the strength bonus your character has using it. If your character has an 18 strength, you want a Composite +4 longbow. That way, you can add the +4 damage from your strength to the 1d8 damage your longbow does normally.

Crossbows are a problem, as they load slower than bows. Bows can be loaded as fast as you can fire. Meaning, high level characters with multiple attacks can fire a bow as fast as they can swing an axe or sword. This does not work the same with a crossbow. You need a special feat to even get to that point with a light crossbow, and it is not possible with a heavy crossbow. Crossbows are only truly useful so long as your BAB is 5 or lower. So, they are a good choice for a full out wizard/sorcerer for quite some time (11th level would be a good time to consider switching to a longbow instead).

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:13 pm

What you say is true, but, if I am correct, a good portion of these features haven't been implemented until Icewind Dale II. This is still the first one. Despite crossbows being slower than bows, most of the time, the types of crossbows/bows that you will be using for a good portion of the game will equal out. Like Magrus said, as fast as you can swing an axe. For my character, the one I'm playing right now, she has a good 5 1/2 attacks per round going (without haste), but the bows and crossbows will be slower. There is a type of bow and crossbow, which I don't want to mention due to being a possible spoiler, that automatically gives you 3 attacks per round with the weapon. So, looking at GB's item list, the two seem exactly the same.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:48 am

@dragon wench: Calculating sheer numbers bows are superior at the moment because of the extra attack.
But having someone with crossbow specialisation is still good for the crossbow you'll find in chapter6.

@Magrus & Crenshinibon: Wrong forum, this is about IWD, not IWD2.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:21 pm

[QUOTE=kmonster]I never found one in the hand. Maybe you're talking about the light cossbow of speed or a heavy crossbow of accuracy. The light crossbow of speed has the same number of attacks and does the same damage as a nonmagical composite bow, not that great.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I went back and checked my saved games. It is the Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy.

But I have found one in the Hand in every game. The walktrough interestingly doesn't attribute one to the Hand. Although there may be a random one in Dorn, I am certain there is one specific to the Hand. I have even had two on occasion.

I really do favor bows (mostly composite). But I do feel one crossbow is a good balance to a party and The Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy is a nice one (IMHO) with that +7 to hit. A lot of this I realize is a matter of party makeup and fighting style of each player.

Even though a good crossbow like the one above can only fire once per round it is very likely to hit. For a thief or thief combo who isn't going to have a lot of "good odds" attacks per round like a fighter, having one "really" good shot for a hit can make the difference in keeping an opponent from casting a spell. Though they might get a second shot (possibly a third at higher level) with a bow, their odds on subsequent shots aren't as good as a fighter. So (to me) in most cases they are only going to have one hit per round thus why not use an item that gives +7 in addition to their other pluses. Fighters are a different matter since their to hits are much better.

Also I like to use gnomes and halflings when I make a fighter/thief and they are limited mostly to shortbows. Personally I would rather have them carry a crossbow than a shortbow. But that's just me.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:37 am

I generally try to have someone take crossbow specialization as well. IIRC, you can find a +1 crossbow (random drop) in the Vale, Bren Muller's (random, nice bonuses) in DE, the light crossbow of speed in a certain elven stronghold, a heavy crossbow of accuracy in a few places (random) and if you are really lucky, the Repeating Heavy Crossbow in the aforementioned Chapter 6. It's +5 to thaco and damage, base 3 attacks/round. I call it the machine gun.

I haven't done the math, but I think it has the potential to do more damage per round than any longbow.

I like to have at least one bow and one crossbow specialization per party (more if I can), and generally slings fill in the rest. I use a lot of multiclasses and I favour warrior/spellcaster combinations.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:42 pm

I bumped this old thread because I just reloaded IWD 1 on my machine. (I had massive crash when I lost power a few months back). Anyhow, I noticed when my party finished off Presario, that they found (once again for me) in the loot the "Crossbow of Speed". I don't think I am "that" lucky but I do seem to often (but not always) find that thing there. One of my party (my fighter/thief) has two proficiencies slots in crossbows. I wonder if party members' proficiencies affect (or at least up the odds) of items of that kind to appear as random items. I did notice that one party I had a long time ago in which one of them had halberdt proficiencies would occasionally find magic halberdts. Most of my parties never see one.

Konalan · Post by **Konalan** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:07 am

The crossbow of speed you get from Presio is likely a light crossbow +1. Once though I was playing on insane difficulty and got the Repeating Heavy Crossbow +5. As I recall it gives 3 attacks per round.

I know there's another crossbow thats +4 and gives 2 attacks per round but its name and location escape me.