I would like to open this thread with the intention of letting the fighter class players exchange ideas and tactics and just vent if they feel so inclined about how unbalanced the game is toward spellcasters. Yes magic is the centerpiece of the game, using it or protection from it and sometimes both, but that's not the issue i'm after - it's balance and comparison. I know this is an old issue but it keeps croping up so let's discuss it.
What are your ideas on how the designers could do to make the game more balanced?
Why did they give us bonus items?
Why did they leave AR 2700 on the disc?
To know more about why I started this thread please read my posts that I mistakenly placed on the "Are summons any good?" thread started by Da Venom..
Thanks
Fighter vs Mage forum
To give you a few facts about me and my knowledge (or lack of it) I am a newbie at posting but not at playing the game. I've played BGII for just over 2 yrs now and have started different characters about 50 times - just about every class, kit, and race. I've played most thru chapter 2 when I just got bored with them or thought I could build a better character and/or party. I've played thru the game 4 times I think - I can remember some of the main characters but not the parties. As I've played I have gotten to where I favor fighter types mostly for the challenge and now I really favor the barbarian. Now I'm on a quest to solo a barbarian thru the game equipping with and with out bonus items.....and yes if you read my posts on the other thread I started a game with the ultimate cheat sword......god what a refreshing change to whack a mage into submission then un-equip the sword and literally punch him out, but that's all it is - a change-up to the real game.
I would still like to play thru the mods with this sword, maybe someday.
Anyway lest i digress please feel free to post.
I would still like to play thru the mods with this sword, maybe someday.
Anyway lest i digress please feel free to post.
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Jedi_Sauraus
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As I mentioned in the previous thread before I noticed it was old and hijacked 
(not blaming anyone here), claiming superiority of one class over another is pointless when taking into account a cheated sword.
could you post the stats ?? I've never seen the sword.
anyway in an unmodded game useing standard items, either from the bonus merchants (for both chars) or not. I go chain contingency protection from magic weapons, Stone Skin, and mislead on self upon seeing enemy.
round 1 time stop, rounds 2+ use your imagination how a high level mage can utterly rape you in a time stop. this has been beaten to death and the only people argueing for a Barbarian are people who have never played a mage for themselves and think that the only thing a mage can do is launch magic missles or cast things life melf's stone skin and globe of minor invulnerability which is what the standard mages with an IQ of about 20 tend to do.
the only + side of a strong tank if that he's free from micro management. that being said you also need a few tanks to tie up the enemy mages while your spell casters do the actuall damage. the game has been designed in such a way that the most powerfull parties have to be balanced: 2 tanks, 2 arcane casters, 1 devine caster, and 1 thief.
Any number of classes can be used to fill those roles, but thats the general layout for a smooth game.
(not blaming anyone here), claiming superiority of one class over another is pointless when taking into account a cheated sword.could you post the stats ?? I've never seen the sword.
anyway in an unmodded game useing standard items, either from the bonus merchants (for both chars) or not. I go chain contingency protection from magic weapons, Stone Skin, and mislead on self upon seeing enemy.
round 1 time stop, rounds 2+ use your imagination how a high level mage can utterly rape you in a time stop. this has been beaten to death and the only people argueing for a Barbarian are people who have never played a mage for themselves and think that the only thing a mage can do is launch magic missles or cast things life melf's stone skin and globe of minor invulnerability which is what the standard mages with an IQ of about 20 tend to do.
the only + side of a strong tank if that he's free from micro management. that being said you also need a few tanks to tie up the enemy mages while your spell casters do the actuall damage. the game has been designed in such a way that the most powerfull parties have to be balanced: 2 tanks, 2 arcane casters, 1 devine caster, and 1 thief.
Any number of classes can be used to fill those roles, but thats the general layout for a smooth game.
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Crenshinibon
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The sword thing proves or shows absolutely nothing. Any character, fighter or not, can kill each other. It's all a matter of how you play and equip them.
We're not talking about cheats and bugs here, because otherwise, the Wild Mage bug would demolish the sword cheat... even if you had two equipped.
A Monk for example, a fighter type class, can take out a mage without many problems. If you just fight them head on, you shouldn't be wondering as to why you're losing. Use potions, items and whatever else you have at your disposal.
Even one round of preparation is enough to defeat a spellcaster.
We're not talking about cheats and bugs here, because otherwise, the Wild Mage bug would demolish the sword cheat... even if you had two equipped.
A Monk for example, a fighter type class, can take out a mage without many problems. If you just fight them head on, you shouldn't be wondering as to why you're losing. Use potions, items and whatever else you have at your disposal.
Even one round of preparation is enough to defeat a spellcaster.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Jedi_Sauraus
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A Monk for example, a fighter type class, can take out a mage without many problems.
yes I've played a monk and know how powerful they are, and would never attempt to attack one "head on"
I'm sure you can dominate any mage in the unmodded game. this is however due to the fact that mages in the game are predictable, use the same spells over and over, and make no attempts to lower your MR or debuff you. A good example of this is how Irenicus emptied his entire spell book on Nalia who was shapechanged into an iron golem. The fight lasted for about 3 minutes untill he ran out of spells doing a total of 0 dmg to Nalia, after which I had some tank with a +5 weapon run into him and kill him in 1 round with GWW.
I highly doubt any melee char including a monk would be able to kill one of my mages; chain contingency is instant and with the right spells makes you immune to everything for at least the 1 round necessary to get off a time stop. from there it's a simple matter of sequencing 3x lower restiance (if you don't have one prepared beforehand) and unloading your entire spell book via improved alcracity. if that doesn't convince you, I could 3 hit kill you via mind flayer cheese, most monks don't have over 15 INT.
But this is really pointless; mages are superior to tanks in every way. Many, many, people know this for a fact. the proof is out here in the forums: you never see people soloing pure melee classes unless they have access to some kind of arcane/devine buffing spells or have access to cheese like the fighter/thief. There is a reason for which the solo sorc is one of the most popular solo chars.
Magic > Blade
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Crenshinibon
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*koff*
If you're playing against me, you'll get demolished, even *if* you're a mage. I don't really like to think in terms of "what would the artificial intelligence do" but rather in terms of "what would an actual player do" as I play that game online quite often.
Also, I have soloed a monk, a kensai, a bounty hunter, an assassin and so forth, none of which get any magical assistance.
Well... if you count wands.
Note: I'm all for mages, Wild Mages especially, but I'm just defending the fighters because even the afore mentioned mage class, which is by far the most powerful caster, can lose to a melee type that is properly equipped and used.
If you're playing against me, you'll get demolished, even *if* you're a mage. I don't really like to think in terms of "what would the artificial intelligence do" but rather in terms of "what would an actual player do" as I play that game online quite often.
Also, I have soloed a monk, a kensai, a bounty hunter, an assassin and so forth, none of which get any magical assistance.
Well... if you count wands.
Note: I'm all for mages, Wild Mages especially, but I'm just defending the fighters because even the afore mentioned mage class, which is by far the most powerful caster, can lose to a melee type that is properly equipped and used.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Jedi_Sauraus
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just out of curiosity how would you stop a chain contingency (mislead stone skin and protection from magic weapons) in the 3 seconds (10 -4 -1 =5/10) it takes to cast time stop ?? I think you'll agree if a mage gets a time stop off your pretty much screwed no matter the class. also how would you counter the INT drain cheese during the time stop, or for that matter a barrage of skull traps cast at you with improved alcracity these tactics all work nicely in single player 1+6/2 = 3.5 dmg/level x at least 5 thats close to 500 dmg. I can also thing of about 5-6 other diffrent tactics that are quite deadly when used against a single enemy.
and while you probably could beat ME because I have never solo'ed a mage and while I'm far from being a noob, you have alot more expierience than I do....... how would you fare against yourself ?? or someone with equal or more skill ?? I think you as a mage would beat you as pure melee class that has no access to arcane or divine magic.
Another thing to consider is that this is mostly a single player game. doesn't matter who wins 1v1 (I still think that a mage who know what he's doing will own a strict melee fighter) most of the harder fights simply cannot be won without access to magic; try the final ascension battles with any solo pure melee class and let me know how you fare . how it was done with a solo wild mage is beyond me but the fact remains that the only classes that managed to solo that insane mod are strong arcane casters. I for 1 see a trend here
and while you probably could beat ME because I have never solo'ed a mage and while I'm far from being a noob, you have alot more expierience than I do....... how would you fare against yourself ?? or someone with equal or more skill ?? I think you as a mage would beat you as pure melee class that has no access to arcane or divine magic.
Another thing to consider is that this is mostly a single player game. doesn't matter who wins 1v1 (I still think that a mage who know what he's doing will own a strict melee fighter) most of the harder fights simply cannot be won without access to magic; try the final ascension battles with any solo pure melee class and let me know how you fare
. how it was done with a solo wild mage is beyond me but the fact remains that the only classes that managed to solo that insane mod are strong arcane casters. I for 1 see a trend here-
Crenshinibon
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Tch. It's quite simple. Even if I fought against myself, I think I might be able to lose as the caster. When you get deep down to it, between people and characters with equal knowledge and power, it's all a matter of who clicks first.
Let us assume that we're dueling in an arena setting here, the drow arena which we get to visit, for imaginative purposes.
The battle between a Wild Mage and a Monk. I'm going by any cheap tactic by the way, Imprisonment included. I'll include the vague descriptions of some bugs that were never fixed, even in the most recent patch, to stress this.
So, here's how the battle plays out:
We'll assume that both players clicked at the exact same time, with the mage already holding his little cast cursor over the Monk's head, with the bug active so that he has no casting delay.
So, the Monk drinks the potion of Magic Blocking and the Mage casts the spell. Now, potions are instant effects, unless you performed an action that requires a one round delay and Imprisonment still takes some time to cast, even with the Robe of Vecna. So, the mage casts, nothing.
Why? I thought the Potion of Magic Blocking made the user immune to spells fifth level or lower!
Well, it is a bugged item that actually makes the user immune to all spells. (There, I taught you something new... maybe. Besides, even if it did work as intended, your little skulltrap thing wouldn't really do anything as it's a level three spell.)
Anyway, out bugged mage starts spam casting, as he doesn't have a delay, and buffs himself up with all sorts of protection spells to wait out the duration of the potion. (Note that you can acquire more than one of these in the actual game.)
Great, so the Monk will have to wack away to get rid of the Mirror Image, Stoneskin and so forth. But the player happens to have a Wand of Cloudkill (which isn't that hard to find) equipped and ready to go. So, he fills the little arena with the spell Cloudkill.
Two things: Cloudkill is not affected by magic resistance, protection from spell schools, Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Spelltrap and so forth. So, the mage starts taking severe amounts of damage, while our Monk, who is naturally immune to poison takes no damage and makes sure he is all protected from a possible barrage.
I didn't use the Mindflayer trick because I am not exactly sure on how to perform it, I know in theory what it does, but I'm not sure enough to use it. Also, I thought that a no delay quickcast bug would seem better.
Also, if I'm correct, the Mage would've died pretty damn quickly in Mindflayer form with a Monk mashing it.
To answer one of the questions on the opening post: I do believe that the bonus items were like a promotion type thing as it was available to the very first buyers of the game. Just like Icewind Dale II came with many extra features for those that preordered it.
Let us assume that we're dueling in an arena setting here, the drow arena which we get to visit, for imaginative purposes.
The battle between a Wild Mage and a Monk. I'm going by any cheap tactic by the way, Imprisonment included. I'll include the vague descriptions of some bugs that were never fixed, even in the most recent patch, to stress this.
So, here's how the battle plays out:
We'll assume that both players clicked at the exact same time, with the mage already holding his little cast cursor over the Monk's head, with the bug active so that he has no casting delay.
So, the Monk drinks the potion of Magic Blocking and the Mage casts the spell. Now, potions are instant effects, unless you performed an action that requires a one round delay and Imprisonment still takes some time to cast, even with the Robe of Vecna. So, the mage casts, nothing.
Why? I thought the Potion of Magic Blocking made the user immune to spells fifth level or lower!
Well, it is a bugged item that actually makes the user immune to all spells. (There, I taught you something new... maybe. Besides, even if it did work as intended, your little skulltrap thing wouldn't really do anything as it's a level three spell.)
Anyway, out bugged mage starts spam casting, as he doesn't have a delay, and buffs himself up with all sorts of protection spells to wait out the duration of the potion. (Note that you can acquire more than one of these in the actual game.)
Great, so the Monk will have to wack away to get rid of the Mirror Image, Stoneskin and so forth. But the player happens to have a Wand of Cloudkill (which isn't that hard to find) equipped and ready to go. So, he fills the little arena with the spell Cloudkill.
Two things: Cloudkill is not affected by magic resistance, protection from spell schools, Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Spelltrap and so forth. So, the mage starts taking severe amounts of damage, while our Monk, who is naturally immune to poison takes no damage and makes sure he is all protected from a possible barrage.
I didn't use the Mindflayer trick because I am not exactly sure on how to perform it, I know in theory what it does, but I'm not sure enough to use it. Also, I thought that a no delay quickcast bug would seem better.
Also, if I'm correct, the Mage would've died pretty damn quickly in Mindflayer form with a Monk mashing it.
To answer one of the questions on the opening post: I do believe that the bonus items were like a promotion type thing as it was available to the very first buyers of the game. Just like Icewind Dale II came with many extra features for those that preordered it.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Jedi_Sauraus
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Oh ok wow you did teach me something new I guess when you solo you really have to use all avaible options
I'm not a big fan of potions or wands and rarely use them; maybe a few potions early on for firkraag but I digress. I'm surprised you don't know the mind flayer cheese :speech: you cast time stop> shapechange> mind flayer in that order, during TS. the MF auto-hits resulting in an (INT/5) hit kill from INT stat drain. even if your drink a potion of 25 int it's still only 5 hits (not sure if a potion like this exists.)
2 things to note, useing Items a Mage can be immune to your little wand of cloud kill there are rings for such a purpose, and being reallllllyyyyyy cheap I could chain together 3x project image on self which could then Chain contingency the appropriate the protections on themselves. each of them runs in a diffrent direction (boots of speed) and cast TS within 3.5 seconds or about 10 if taking into account the time for Chain contingency at start. can you stop all 3 of the mini me's ?? in such a short duration?? remember once I get of TS I'm not sure you can stop the MF cheese. also since we're still talking about cheese I could also use the above tactics to summon up an army of plantears which are quite powerfull; even with 2 chain contingencies I still have room for 3 planetars (assuming I'm a plain mage not a sorceror or specialist) x 3 mini me's = nice army all while I'm safely under improved invisibility.
a few more things; bear in mind, that, while you could probably kill me the first few times around; all it takes is figureing out how to buff and in what order. Also keep in mind that magic can make you immune to almost anything. I recall Irenicus is immune to nearly everything I throw at him unless he's constantly subjected to dispell and breach ruby rays ect.
Frankly I'd be more worried about an Inquisitor than a monk, whose only strenght in this fight is his MR which is easly taken out via spell trigger
summon deva's, a really uber dispell, and instant true sight, can both screw a mage over pretty badly and nullify a good portion of his cheese. I'd have to use CC similarcum but those take an extra round to cast restoration on them, (from a scroll they would each have on them) makeing them vulneralbe, + I would have to do this in the second round not the first b/c similarcums don't auto cast improved invisibility on you.
and If we're into the worlds most stinky possible cheese, which I wouldn't use b/c it would cheapen the fight too much..... chaotic neutral mage = chaotic neutral familiar smuggle out the wand from the sewers which acts as an ustoppable insta casting ranged "harm" much like the wand of ressurection. This would, of course be cast from a clone so as not to waste the charge
I guess when you solo you really have to use all avaible options I'm not a big fan of potions or wands and rarely use them; maybe a few potions early on for firkraag but I digress. I'm surprised you don't know the mind flayer cheese :speech: you cast time stop> shapechange> mind flayer in that order, during TS. the MF auto-hits resulting in an (INT/5) hit kill from INT stat drain. even if your drink a potion of 25 int it's still only 5 hits (not sure if a potion like this exists.)
2 things to note, useing Items a Mage can be immune to your little wand of cloud kill there are rings for such a purpose, and being reallllllyyyyyy cheap I could chain together 3x project image on self which could then Chain contingency the appropriate the protections on themselves. each of them runs in a diffrent direction (boots of speed) and cast TS within 3.5 seconds or about 10 if taking into account the time for Chain contingency at start. can you stop all 3 of the mini me's ?? in such a short duration?? remember once I get of TS I'm not sure you can stop the MF cheese. also since we're still talking about cheese I could also use the above tactics to summon up an army of plantears which are quite powerfull; even with 2 chain contingencies I still have room for 3 planetars (assuming I'm a plain mage not a sorceror or specialist) x 3 mini me's = nice army all while I'm safely under improved invisibility.
a few more things; bear in mind, that, while you could probably kill me the first few times around; all it takes is figureing out how to buff and in what order. Also keep in mind that magic can make you immune to almost anything. I recall Irenicus is immune to nearly everything I throw at him unless he's constantly subjected to dispell and breach ruby rays ect.
Frankly I'd be more worried about an Inquisitor than a monk, whose only strenght in this fight is his MR which is easly taken out via spell trigger
summon deva's, a really uber dispell, and instant true sight, can both screw a mage over pretty badly and nullify a good portion of his cheese. I'd have to use CC similarcum but those take an extra round to cast restoration on them, (from a scroll they would each have on them) makeing them vulneralbe, + I would have to do this in the second round not the first b/c similarcums don't auto cast improved invisibility on you.
and If we're into the worlds most stinky possible cheese, which I wouldn't use b/c it would cheapen the fight too much..... chaotic neutral mage = chaotic neutral familiar smuggle out the wand from the sewers which acts as an ustoppable insta casting ranged "harm" much like the wand of ressurection. This would, of course be cast from a clone so as not to waste the charge
Excellent points all around. I didn't know about the magic blocking potion bug either, how exactly does it work? Does it make one immune to all spells or only directly damaging or what? And remember that there is a delay between using items so you'll have to drink the potion then wait until next round to deploy wands. Should give the mage enough time to get TS+shapechange under way. Then again a fighter could go invisible and hide with the cloak of non-detection on. Except planetars can see through invisibility, which means the fighter needs to defend himself and that makes him visible.
Hmm, it really is all down to what exactly you do, and the knowledge one has of tactics and cheese. I firmly believe the mage would win, but it might be closer than I initially thought. Fighting the AI really doesn't give you a good idea of what fighting a real persons character would be like. I think we all can agree on that at least.
Hmm, it really is all down to what exactly you do, and the knowledge one has of tactics and cheese. I firmly believe the mage would win, but it might be closer than I initially thought. Fighting the AI really doesn't give you a good idea of what fighting a real persons character would be like. I think we all can agree on that at least.
Plans within plans...
I have to agree with Pe Ell.......excellent posts all around. This is one of the things I wanted to bring out in this thread. As for it being hi-jacked I will apologize, the the only recent thread I can find is the anti-mage thread by snoopyofour and it is very similar but I didn't like the way it is heading and I'm asking some different questions that hopefully in the future will be discussed.
And yes I'm learning some new things too. To answer about the INT potion It's the potion of Genius. It will give 25 INT, also the potion of mind focusing will stack to give 25. My question is what are all the effects of the potion of freedom? I'm still looking for a time stop counter effect.
@ Jedi Sauraus. as far as the stats on the cheat sword goes, when you click on it it will say long sword +2 'varscona', but it really isn't the right stats so the only way to show them is to show the effects on my naked barbarian .
With nothing equipped; AC 7, THACo (not base....not effected) 10, # atks 3/2, MR resistance none
With 1 sword equipped; you get improved haste and the following, AC -3, THACo -41, # atks 8, MR 100
With 2 swords equipped; same improved haste, AC -13, THACo main hand -41.....off hand -39, # atks 10, MR 127
Damage given is between 1026 - 765 hps per hit, double for critical hits, doesn't matter if one or two equipped. That's so far as I have gotten. Also an interesting side note, any class can use this sword, druids, mages, etc., with some small changes in AC and THACo. Maybe because of prof. slots.
Anyway I've suspended playing that game to play my solo barbarian as mentioned b/4.
And yes I'm learning some new things too. To answer about the INT potion It's the potion of Genius. It will give 25 INT, also the potion of mind focusing will stack to give 25. My question is what are all the effects of the potion of freedom? I'm still looking for a time stop counter effect.
@ Jedi Sauraus. as far as the stats on the cheat sword goes, when you click on it it will say long sword +2 'varscona', but it really isn't the right stats so the only way to show them is to show the effects on my naked barbarian
.With nothing equipped; AC 7, THACo (not base....not effected) 10, # atks 3/2, MR resistance none
With 1 sword equipped; you get improved haste and the following, AC -3, THACo -41, # atks 8, MR 100
With 2 swords equipped; same improved haste, AC -13, THACo main hand -41.....off hand -39, # atks 10, MR 127
Damage given is between 1026 - 765 hps per hit, double for critical hits, doesn't matter if one or two equipped. That's so far as I have gotten. Also an interesting side note, any class can use this sword, druids, mages, etc., with some small changes in AC and THACo. Maybe because of prof. slots.
Anyway I've suspended playing that game to play my solo barbarian as mentioned b/4.
Balance
@ Jedi Sauraus, I agree on what you said about balance in your post and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding about what balance I was trying to get at.
Yes the game was meant to be played with a party and what you described is as balanced as it gets. My first time thru was with the classic NPC party of Minsc, Jaheria, Yoshi, Vicona, Edwin, and my character an undead hunter. All bases covered and being first time thru......what a GREAT game.
Then what? You go back and mix NPC's and run thru again, then.......you find you can create more characters and mix in a couple......then have 5 created characters with a slot open for an NPC for the quests. Then the only challenge is to reduce the party size...to 5 then 4....down to solo, where I'm at now.
Spellcasters are awesome so you solo one and I know I'll get more negative responses with this statement but anyone can solo a spellcaster. So if you are a dedicated spellcast player where then comes the challenge? If you need more magic challenge you have to go to a modded game.
I decided to not use mods so I went the opposite way - less magic use. Fighter class uses the least amount of magic that's why I use a barbarian, but I guess if I want the lowest I could use a vanilla fighter ( hmmm move the monk off the back burner).
The class balance was what I was after. I invisioned an arena where 2 classes face off and when it's over both are dead, just by different means, that's balance and Crenshinibon has given me new hope. And yes I would still like to discuss tactics and maybe discuss if you were a developer what you would do to maybe more balance the classes, like..........a sequencer that a fighter could use to load HLA's in? Now that's a start.
@ Jedi Sauraus, I agree on what you said about balance in your post and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding about what balance I was trying to get at.
Yes the game was meant to be played with a party and what you described is as balanced as it gets. My first time thru was with the classic NPC party of Minsc, Jaheria, Yoshi, Vicona, Edwin, and my character an undead hunter. All bases covered and being first time thru......what a GREAT game.
Then what? You go back and mix NPC's and run thru again, then.......you find you can create more characters and mix in a couple......then have 5 created characters with a slot open for an NPC for the quests. Then the only challenge is to reduce the party size...to 5 then 4....down to solo, where I'm at now.
Spellcasters are awesome so you solo one and I know I'll get more negative responses with this statement but anyone can solo a spellcaster. So if you are a dedicated spellcast player where then comes the challenge? If you need more magic challenge you have to go to a modded game.
I decided to not use mods so I went the opposite way - less magic use. Fighter class uses the least amount of magic that's why I use a barbarian, but I guess if I want the lowest I could use a vanilla fighter ( hmmm move the monk off the back burner).
The class balance was what I was after. I invisioned an arena where 2 classes face off and when it's over both are dead, just by different means, that's balance and Crenshinibon has given me new hope. And yes I would still like to discuss tactics and maybe discuss if you were a developer what you would do to maybe more balance the classes, like..........a sequencer that a fighter could use to load HLA's in? Now that's a start.
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Jedi_Sauraus
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IMO soloing any class is a challange.... just think of it; past about level 20 you only get 3hp/level and 1 HLA there's not a huge diffrence between level 20-30. now before anybody jumps on me yes a level 30 char will have a whole lot more HLA's but..... when I play with a team at the end all of my guys have at least 7 million a piece even with a thief the diffrence between 7 and 8 is about 4 levels but I have 6 guys. and the final ascension fight was still a tough nut to crack the first time around
to challange myself I try not to use the really uber cheese like summoning up 20 planetars, or use the wand in the sewers. I'm okay using powerfull combinations like TS + SS mindflayer but that is just a creative way of using level 9 spells. the 20 planetars thing well normally your only allowed 1
I'd encourage anyone to play with a team rather than going solo because half the charm of this game is the brilliant npc interactions, + I even though I haven't tried it, I can imagine soloing can get pretty tedious at least for me
.... locked door ??? out of spells ?? in the city ??? great let's waste 5 minutes going to the inn and resting to get a knock spell or bashing the door and waiting to get a good roll
another thing to consider is that you get too powerfull too fast in act 2 then later you just might bash your head against the wall when you run into the more difficult fights in ToB, a team offers you a nice progressionm and without resorting to cheese I've found it quite balanced.
to challange myself I try not to use the really uber cheese like summoning up 20 planetars, or use the wand in the sewers. I'm okay using powerfull combinations like TS + SS mindflayer but that is just a creative way of using level 9 spells. the 20 planetars thing well normally your only allowed 1
I'd encourage anyone to play with a team rather than going solo because half the charm of this game is the brilliant npc interactions, + I even though I haven't tried it, I can imagine soloing can get pretty tedious at least for me
.... locked door ??? out of spells ?? in the city ??? great let's waste 5 minutes going to the inn and resting to get a knock spell or bashing the door and waiting to get a good roll
another thing to consider is that you get too powerfull too fast in act 2 then later you just might bash your head against the wall when you run into the more difficult fights in ToB, a team offers you a nice progressionm and without resorting to cheese I've found it quite balanced.
@Crenshinibon
I have to add some minor comments.
1) While there were Potions of Magic Blocking in BGI there aren't any in BGII SoA&ToB as far as I know. I suspect that you got these potions from a mod.
But even then they have a big hole in their defense. They produce in fact personal Globes of Invulnerability that protect against spells of up to level 9 As such, they are susceptible to dispelling. Although Dispel Magic and Remove Magic are 3rd level spells, they will remove the potions' effects. Apart from that, they won't protect against some other spells, such as True Sight and Dragon's Breath.
2) Combining the Wand of Cloudkill with the monk's natural resistance against poison damage is a good tactic and might surprise the mage. Although there aren't many ways to defend against it, there are at least some. Mirror images will protect against all area damage. Depending on the number of Cloudkills activce however they will vanish more or less quickly. There is the Ring of Antidote, that will grant 100% resistance to poison damage (If the mage expects this trick he might have this ring equipped).
Best regards,
Lark
I have to add some minor comments.
1) While there were Potions of Magic Blocking in BGI there aren't any in BGII SoA&ToB as far as I know. I suspect that you got these potions from a mod.
But even then they have a big hole in their defense. They produce in fact personal Globes of Invulnerability that protect against spells of up to level 9 As such, they are susceptible to dispelling. Although Dispel Magic and Remove Magic are 3rd level spells, they will remove the potions' effects. Apart from that, they won't protect against some other spells, such as True Sight and Dragon's Breath.
2) Combining the Wand of Cloudkill with the monk's natural resistance against poison damage is a good tactic and might surprise the mage. Although there aren't many ways to defend against it, there are at least some. Mirror images will protect against all area damage. Depending on the number of Cloudkills activce however they will vanish more or less quickly. There is the Ring of Antidote, that will grant 100% resistance to poison damage (If the mage expects this trick he might have this ring equipped).
Best regards,
Lark
@ Lark
There is a potion of magic protection that gives you 50% magic protection for 10 rounds or until dispelled and,
there is a potion of magic shielding that gives you 50% resist to magic damage for 3 turns.
I have bought both from Roger the Fence in the sewers.
The inventory list does have a potion of magic blocking, that will block 5th lvl spells for 5 turns, but for the life of me I don't remember running across any.
The Periapt(?) of Proof against Poison is an amulet that I have used that also gives immunity to poison.
Hope this helps,
Thanks
There is a potion of magic protection that gives you 50% magic protection for 10 rounds or until dispelled and,
there is a potion of magic shielding that gives you 50% resist to magic damage for 3 turns.
I have bought both from Roger the Fence in the sewers.
The inventory list does have a potion of magic blocking, that will block 5th lvl spells for 5 turns, but for the life of me I don't remember running across any.
The Periapt(?) of Proof against Poison is an amulet that I have used that also gives immunity to poison.
Hope this helps,
Thanks
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Crenshinibon
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Glad to have given you new hope.
Lark: As Buster said, these potions do exist. Check the GB list for their locations. I do not have any mods installed but do have the latest patch.
Buster: I suggest you try soloing a Bounty Hunter. Very fun.
Jedi: Well, many people have played the game so much that, like me, they have practically memorized all the dialogs. You should try the "No Reloads" thing. It's pretty challenging. I haven't played my file in a while. My Wild Mage is still alive, in case you wanted to know.
I'll agree with your point about Chapter 2. (Acts are for Diablo :laugh: )
I started a Blade at level 7 with no equipment, like you're supposed to. By the time I advanced to Chapter 3, she was level 37.
Lark: As Buster said, these potions do exist. Check the GB list for their locations. I do not have any mods installed but do have the latest patch.
Buster: I suggest you try soloing a Bounty Hunter. Very fun.
Jedi: Well, many people have played the game so much that, like me, they have practically memorized all the dialogs. You should try the "No Reloads" thing. It's pretty challenging. I haven't played my file in a while. My Wild Mage is still alive, in case you wanted to know.
I'll agree with your point about Chapter 2. (Acts are for Diablo :laugh: )
I started a Blade at level 7 with no equipment, like you're supposed to. By the time I advanced to Chapter 3, she was level 37.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Jedi_Sauraus
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yeah lol my bad, I used to play diablo 2 expansion alot, and still do on and off from time to time, but I find SoA + ToB more fun with the 1.10 patch diablo is becoming too equipment dependent and I simply don't have time to run bosses 24/7 to get those items.... I digress
I will probably get around to trying solo, but no reloads must suck I can imagine the frustration of getting to say chapter 5 and then failing some saving throw vs a mind flayer in the underdark. then all that time goes to waste. I'd rather install tactics to challange myself. In fact I plan on doing so after my current run through. Either that or solo sorc the easiest solo char but still a step up from a 6 member team.
After this run I'll have expierience with druid spells and thief abilities so I should be ready to tackle tactics. I've heard it's challangeing and adds some content and items
edit: what I mean is that I'm not expierienced enough to pull of no reloads (I think) seems scary. if you can do that I'm in awe
with the 1.10 patch diablo is becoming too equipment dependent and I simply don't have time to run bosses 24/7 to get those items.... I digressI will probably get around to trying solo, but no reloads must suck I can imagine the frustration of getting to say chapter 5 and then failing some saving throw vs a mind flayer in the underdark. then all that time goes to waste. I'd rather install tactics to challange myself. In fact I plan on doing so after my current run through. Either that or solo sorc
the easiest solo char but still a step up from a 6 member team.After this run I'll have expierience with druid spells and thief abilities so I should be ready to tackle tactics. I've heard it's challangeing and adds some content and items
edit: what I mean is that I'm not expierienced enough to pull of no reloads (I think) seems scary. if you can do that I'm in awe
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Silvanerian
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The old Mage vs Fighter debate...
Just a few comments to that monk vs mage in a previous post:
I'm curious as to how a monk will kill an invisible character.. the mage can just turn invisible (at will with the staff of the Magi or regularly with potions or spells) and wait for your super-potion to wear off.
If he casts spell immunity: Divinition beforehand, I don't believe your monk would be able to dispell the invisibility in any way.
Exploiting bugs, "cheats" or cheese, a well prepared mage can defeat any non-mage character....once.
And that is their strength over the fighter classes; the mage can win any battle, but will likely not be ready for the next without resting.
The fighter however, is great at a more continuous basis, however they're vulnerable when having to defend against arcanic foes.
That's why they're best in teams combining their strengths..
Say what you will, but my money will always be on the fighter/mage multiclass whether the battle be a duel or against a horde of enemies.
A sidenote about PnP: To memorize a 4th level spell, the mage had to spend 4 hours resting/studying. Stoneskin costed around 1000 gp in materials alone.
Add that to the equation, and you'll understand why the mage seems "overpowered" in BG where such things are not taken into consideration.
Further, a mage with stoneskin, protection against whatever and bla bla is still vulnerable to a simple push from a strong man - again emphazising the need for a well rounded team..
Just a few comments to that monk vs mage in a previous post:
I'm curious as to how a monk will kill an invisible character.. the mage can just turn invisible (at will with the staff of the Magi or regularly with potions or spells) and wait for your super-potion to wear off.
If he casts spell immunity: Divinition beforehand, I don't believe your monk would be able to dispell the invisibility in any way.
Exploiting bugs, "cheats" or cheese, a well prepared mage can defeat any non-mage character....once.
And that is their strength over the fighter classes; the mage can win any battle, but will likely not be ready for the next without resting.
The fighter however, is great at a more continuous basis, however they're vulnerable when having to defend against arcanic foes.
That's why they're best in teams combining their strengths..
Say what you will, but my money will always be on the fighter/mage multiclass whether the battle be a duel or against a horde of enemies.
A sidenote about PnP: To memorize a 4th level spell, the mage had to spend 4 hours resting/studying. Stoneskin costed around 1000 gp in materials alone.
Add that to the equation, and you'll understand why the mage seems "overpowered" in BG where such things are not taken into consideration.
Further, a mage with stoneskin, protection against whatever and bla bla is still vulnerable to a simple push from a strong man - again emphazising the need for a well rounded team..
Qualis Artefix Pereo
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Jedi_Sauraus
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yeah a fighter mage is a powerhouse, he's eseentially a mage with a few less level 9 spell (Irrelevant due to cloning) and all the advantages of a fighter another bonus is he can stack cheesey fighter HLA's with improved alcracity
add in a exp cap remover..... no wait don't that class is evil enough as it is
as a side note on PnP sounds fun no overpowered mages. but then how do you face enemies such as dragons or liches if a pansy level 4 stone skin costs you 1k gold and you need 4h to memoerize ??
add in a exp cap remover..... no wait don't that class is evil enough as it is
as a side note on PnP sounds fun
no overpowered mages. but then how do you face enemies such as dragons or liches if a pansy level 4 stone skin costs you 1k gold and you need 4h to memoerize ??-
Crenshinibon
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Oh, I also feel the need to state that while the Wild Mage bug completely removes the casting delay, it also lets you cast unlimited spells so, the mage will be able to take on a horde of enemies. If we're going into cheeses, this bug can be performed with a Scimulacarum.
Jedi: I recently got back to Diablo II myself. Level 45 at the moment. We should play sometime.
Jedi: I recently got back to Diablo II myself. Level 45 at the moment. We should play sometime.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”