Witness to Disaster

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:33 pm

Have you ever watched a friend or family member blunder inexorably toward certain doom and been utterly powerless to do anything about it?

I have a friend who is in the process of doing precisely that, and I watch on with a certain horror. While, I have warned her of the danger in which she is placing herself, I can do no more than that. Sometimes in life, people simply have to walk a path themselves, no matter the potential consequences, and no matter the concern exhibited by friends who know that same path only too well.
In addition to all of this my friend is both extremely stubborn and very naive... a lethal combination.

I wish I could do something, I care about her, she is one of my oldest friends. But I can't. And even if it were in my power to take some kind of action, I'm not sure I would, because I respect personal privacy, and I always try to avoid interfering with the private lives of others.

Still though... it's difficult.

Has anyone else ever struggled with something like this?

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:43 pm

Eh, yes. I suppose friends or family will say that my current stubborn stance regarding my boss could be the same thing as well. I learned that you cannot force someone to do something that they do not wish to do. Everyone's life is theirs to live, or not to live as they so choose. Perhaps it is my personal experiences that go beyond the norm and my dealings with things most people never have to deal with.

However, I have found that you need to do what feel is best for yourself in order to be happy. If you aren't happy, you aren't truly living, you are simply surviving. Sometimes you need to risk everything in order to find happiness. Even if it happens to risk your health or ability to survive. It may be that the situation you are referring to isn't anything like this, but it could be, and you are just not in your friends situation and cannot understand the why behind the actions that happen to worry you.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:38 pm

Magrus wrote: It may be that the situation you are referring to isn't anything like this, but it could be, and you are just not in your friends situation and cannot understand the why behind the actions that happen to worry you.

Actually... the reason I'm as concerned as I am, is that at one time I was in almost precisely the same situation as my friend.... The only real differences being that these current circumstances bode *much* greater pain and extremely serious fallout.

You are right though Mag, as I said in my opening post, people have to live their own lives and experience things for themselves, I know this all too well

It's just difficult to watch, especially when you've been there yourself.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:52 pm

*nods* Yeah, it can be really difficult. I know, for myself, I am doing something risky right now. However, I have been miserable, and frustrated and have become quite aggressive from it building up. It isn't healthy for me. I'd rather risk something to find happiness than be miserable and end up hitting the cause of my frustration and end up in legal trouble. So, I switched directions and I'll see what happens. People won't be happy and they'll worry, and it may not work out well, but....what's the point of living if you can't live happy anyhow?

I would say that simply go out of your way to let the friend know that you are worried, and don't want to impose, but are there to give advice if she may want it. That you did something similar and know how hard it can be on you. I hate people telling me what to do when they don't understand my situation, but I will listen to intelligent and well-thought out advice if it is truly applicable to my situation.

That being said, there are situations where sometimes you NEED to step in. Sometimes people are in over their heads and need help. It can start in a simple and easy problem and then snowball until there is nothing you can do once things go too far. Cassie most definately needed my help, even though she wanted to be independant and do her own thing, which I let her do. She later regretted that and asked for help when it was too late, and nothing could be done for her at that point.

Since you comprehend the situation your friend is in, you can probably figure out the basis of whether she may want to have some passive support, to be left alone, or be in need of someone to give them a kick in the rear and put their life on track.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:55 pm

In most serious friendships there are, by necessity, some lines you can't/shouldn't cross. Never commenting on friend's choice of partners is one example. On occassion though the choice is so universally poor that one has to place the importance of commenting at the level of importance of the friendship. In my short life I've only done it once. They ignored my heartfelt plea and married the hideous hag. I don't hang out with them anymore because she is always Yokoing. At least I feel righteous in my disgust. - Curdis !

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:47 pm

[QUOTE=Magrus]I would say that simply go out of your way to let the friend know that you are worried, and don't want to impose, but are there to give advice if she may want it. That you did something similar and know how hard it can be on you. I hate people telling me what to do when they don't understand my situation, but I will listen to intelligent and well-thought out advice if it is truly applicable to my situation.[/QUOTE]

That's basically what I have been doing. I should mention, she is the one who initially brought the subject up with me and continues to confide in me. Although I had a very strong sense that the situation was occurring, I said nothing about it until she broached the topic. As I said, I generally respect the privacy of others. She knows very well that I have been in a closely parallel situation... she was there and watched me bleed. And this is why she is confiding in me, because she knows I understand completely where she is coming from. All of this leaves me in a very odd place, as you might well imagine. On the one hand I can identify with what she is going through, but at the same time I recall my own frame of mind during my experience... which is why I know fully that she is highly unlikely to alter her course. This is very frustrating, because I don't want to see her impale herself on the cliffs below, she has already been through a great deal in the last number of years. Yet, I also know extremely well, that it is something she can only truly find out for herself. And when she asks what she should do, how can I possibly counsel her against doing something that I myself plunged into without regret or second thought? As I stated, however, the magnitude of my friend's situation is considerably more dire. *sigh*

Gah....

[QUOTE=Curdis]In most serious friendships there are, by necessity, some lines you can't/shouldn't cross. Never commenting on friend's choice of partners is one example. On occassion though the choice is so universally poor that one has to place the importance of commenting at the level of importance of the friendship.[/QUOTE]

Yes, absolutely. And I know exactly what you mean about not commenting on somebody's choice of a partner, it's something I've always tried to avoid, and when asked for my opinion I keep it very neutral if I don't like the person. The old cliche about love being blind is unfortunately true most of the time, and somebody who is in love is not thinking rationally, in fact they aren't really thinking at all. So anybody who even considers commenting in that sort of a situation is pretty much stepping into a bramble patch. But yeah... there are some cases where you almost feel duty bound to at least say, "Hey, it's not my business and I'll only say this once..."

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:51 pm

No, not until it was too late. I had a few clues but didn't react on them in time.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:12 am

Curdis wrote:In most serious friendships there are, by necessity, some lines you can't/shouldn't cross. Never commenting on friend's choice of partners is one example...

I disagree. If you have a solid friendship based on mutual respect, I don't see why you can't make your own opinions known, especially if your friend confides in you and asks for your advice, and especially if you're only trying to protect your friend. On the other hand, if you're trying to sabotage your friend's other relationships just because you feel threatened or for other selfish reasons (for example, if you want to avoid contact with your friend's new partner just because you don't like him or her), then you're not being a very good friend.

dragon wench, I think you should make your opinion known to your friend and offer her the benefit of your experience, and if you ever think she is in immediate danger, you should warn her. But beyond that, I think you might have to bite your tongue. If your friend is in love with a big jerk who can wreck her life or something like, there's nothing you can do about it. People in such situations have a way of believing that the object of their affection makes them "happy" even if it is clear that the relationship is entirely destructive. You can't reason with them, and they won't understand what you're trying to tell them until they reach the same conclusions on their own without your help, if ever.

Think about your own position. Is being friends with someone who is self-destructive good for you? I doubt it, but has it even occured to you that maybe this particular friendship of yours should not last? You're going to hang on to it and fight to protect it no matter what the consequences are, aren't you? Because it's important to you and you think it's something you have to do, right? Well, think how much harder it would be for your friend to let go of her own new relationship. It's important to her and she doesn't want to lose it. So just think about what you're up against.

BlueSky · Post by **BlueSky** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:08 am

Yes, I've been on both sides of situations that were very difficult to deal with.
Being without the details, the best advice that one can give....is the old adage.
sometimes the "right" thing is the "hardest" thing to do.
Whatever you decide, please think long and hard about the results.

DaemonJ · Post by **DaemonJ** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:05 pm

I used to go out of my way to help my friends avoid the mistakes that I have made but not anymore. The harder that I tried the less that they listened and then would complain about their situation afterwards. Now I live my life and let everyone else live theirs.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:20 pm

VonDondu wrote:I disagree. If you have a solid friendship based on mutual respect, I don't see why you can't make your own opinions known, especially if your friend confides in you and asks for your advice, and especially if you're only trying to protect your friend. On the other hand, if you're trying to sabotage your friend's other relationships just because you feel threatened or for other selfish reasons (for example, if you want to avoid contact with your friend's new partner just because you don't like him or her), then you're not being a very good friend.

dragon wench, I think you should make your opinion known to your friend and offer her the benefit of your experience, and if you ever think she is in immediate danger, you should warn her. But beyond that, I think you might have to bite your tongue. If your friend is in love with a big jerk who can wreck her life or something like, there's nothing you can do about it. People in such situations have a way of believing that the object of their affection makes them "happy" even if it is clear that the relationship is entirely destructive. You can't reason with them, and they won't understand what you're trying to tell them until they reach the same conclusions on their own without your help, if ever.

Think about your own position. Is being friends with someone who is self-destructive good for you? I doubt it, but has it even occured to you that maybe this particular friendship of yours should not last? You're going to hang on to it and fight to protect it no matter what the consequences are, aren't you? Because it's important to you and you think it's something you have to do, right? Well, think how much harder it would be for your friend to let go of her own new relationship. It's important to her and she doesn't want to lose it. So just think about what you're up against.

You don't appear to disagree very much with what I said. :speech:. Your response to Dragon Wench essentially makes the case for why keeping your own counsel IS the only sensible, in it for the long haul, friend way of reacting. I find your comment about feeling threatened by the new relationship to be particularily aggregious. Like with children, sometimes the only thing you can do with people you love and care for is to shut your eyes and hope that the landing isn't too harsh. Respecting the other person's opinion, even when it deviates strongly from your own is one of the corner stones of sucessful relationships. If that opinion is romantic then the 'honest' answer is probably the last one that you should give, and I still counsel that unless it is so obviously a disaster that you must cross that line, don't do it.

Being there for the person no matter what the outcome is more important. I would still 'be there' for the friend in the example, but they are now too aware of the whole situation and my crossing the line has effectively finished that friendship. Honest, yes, good for the friendship, no. - Curdis !

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:49 pm

I think everyone here has made some very valuable points, and I appreciate this a great deal

Most of you have basically confirmed my own intuitive sense that keeping a mostly still tongue is the best course of action...however devastating the consequences might be for my friend and those surrounding her. She is seemingly Hellbent on careening toward probable chaos and immense pain, and I suspect that at some level she knows this. It is, for her, a question of living and experiencing. Maybe it's a little bit like an extreme sport where great risk is involved.... the rush of feeling profoundly alive on every level. Something I can certainly relate to

[QUOTE=Von Dondu]Think about your own position. Is being friends with someone who is self-destructive good for you? I doubt it, but has it even occured to you that maybe this particular friendship of yours should not last? You're going to hang on to it and fight to protect it no matter what the consequences are, aren't you? Because it's important to you and you think it's something you have to do, right? Well, think how much harder it would be for your friend to let go of her own new relationship. It's important to her and she doesn't want to lose it. So just think about what you're up against.[/QUOTE]

That is... a very good point, and it hits even closer to home than you might realise. On occasion I've questioned whether this friendship is good for me, because there is a pattern to it. My friend consistently pursues/finds herself in potentially destructive situations, all the while asking me for counsel, which she then promptly ignores. I'm not so arrogant as to think that any advice I have is always going to be right, but all too often I've been left with her crying on my shoulder and trying very hard to refrain from saying "I told you so."
By far though.... this is the *worst* risky situation I have ever seen her in. I should simply shrug my shouders and resign myself to the fact that she's going to end up in hot water yet again, and that is basically what I'm doing, it's pointless to do anything else. As has happened before, I'll simply be there for her when she comes tumbling down.
Yet, of course, as you point out, I can't help but care, even as I close my eyes and avert my gaze.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:56 pm

dragon wench wrote:That is... a very good point, and it hits even closer to home than you might realise. On occasion I've questioned whether this friendship is good for me, because there is a pattern to it. My friend consistently pursues/finds herself in potentially destructive situations, all the while asking me for counsel, which she then promptly ignores. I'm not so arrogant as to think that any advice I have is always going to be right, but all too often I've been left with her crying on my shoulder and trying very hard to refrain from saying "I told you so."

I have been here numerous times. I generally deal with it a handful of times from each person, and then give them a response involving my situation instead of their situation. The response generally being "You always come to me for advice, never take it, end up miserable and hurt, then demand I help you fix things. This is just about ALL you come to me for, and if that's the case, you need professional help. Change that, or start paying me." At which point, they promptly become upset or furious and that is generally the end of the relationship. I have only gotten an apology and had the friendship change for the better after a statement close to that has been said once.

The reason I have done this, is I often end up as the informal therapist and savior for most of my friends. If one of them drives me insane with worry I can't help the others. I don't mind ending up exhausted and miserable if it helps someone I care for. If someone regularly makes me exhausted and miserable and never attempts to get better, then they can wallow in it without me.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:02 pm

Curdis wrote:You don't appear to disagree very much with what I said. :speech:. Your response to Dragon Wench essentially makes the case for why keeping your own counsel IS the only sensible, in it for the long haul, friend way of reacting...

I thought you said you should NEVER comment on a friend's choice of partners. My position is that in a healthy, mature relationship, you can ALWAYS make your own opinion known. That's called a "dichotomy".

However, once you make your opinion known, there might not be anything else you can do to prevent your friend from making mistakes. But at least you did your best to help them. That's a lot different than not saying anything at all.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:32 pm

I thought I wrote that very clearly, but obviously not clearly enough. Glad we do actually agree. That's what confused me so much. I'm having a similar relationship question issue with a friend and I'm trying very hard to be positive and supportive while still giving effective and constructive honest advice. It's very hard. - Curdis !

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:46 pm

Curdis wrote:Never commenting on friend's choice of partners is one example. On occassion though the choice is so universally poor that one has to place the importance of commenting at the level of importance of the friendship. In my short life I've only done it once...

I can't count the number of times I've told my friends exactly what I think about their relationship choices. I've never been so afraid of losing a friendship that I wouldn't speak my mind. Doesn't that sound a little bit different from what you're saying?

Curdis wrote:Being there for the person no matter what the outcome is more important...

You mean unless you get pissed off at your friend because they said something you didn't like? Don't take that the wrong way--it's just a rhetorical question. If they would abandon you for saying something they didn't like, would you do the same thing? If not, then why are they so much different? Why is it so risky to state your honest opinion to your friends? I never said anything like that.

Curdis wrote:I would still 'be there' for the friend in the example, but they are now too aware of the whole situation and my crossing the line has effectively finished that friendship. Honest, yes, good for the friendship, no.

You lost a friendship because you told your friend your honest opinion. It was honest but it wasn't good for the friendship. That's completely at odds with what I've been talking about.

I think that in a healthy relationship, you can and should speak your mind. I don't think that has ever cost me any friends. The worst thing that ever happened to me is that my friends ignored my advice, and that's not something that ever hurt ME. After I gave them my opinion, there wasn't anything else I could do, but that was never a reason not to speak up. And being afraid to lose a friendship was also never a reason not to speak up. You seem to be warning people that stating your opinion might ruin a friendship, but I've been saying all along that you should state your opinion (just don't expect it to make any difference). I honestly don't see any similarity to the situation you just described. Sorry.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:02 pm

The dilema is always how the (ongoing) failure of the friend's relationship will effect your relationship with the friend. If we were talking cold analytical facts that had some reference point for right or wrong rather than entirely subjective emotions then it would be easier to council for complete honesty.

It wasn't my advice to not have anything to do with the partner that damaged our friendship it was the pressure that this put on our ongoing friendship with the inclusion of the third party, who my friend knew I had a strongly negative opinion of. As my various predictions came to pass this actually made things harder, and I never said 'I told you so', although this was probably moot.

So I don't think it's about fragile relationships and small risks. I think you have been lucky in your policy of brutal honesty, but maybe I'm not as diplomatic. - Curdis !

xxslainxx · Post by **xxslainxx** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:39 pm

Wench:

All i have to say is tread carefully lest you embitter your friend. And are no longer in a position to help him/her when they do realize the negativity of their situation and need someone to turn to for support.

Speaking from experience.

Jeff_31 · Post by **Jeff_31** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:58 am

My cousin is schizophrenic and we cannot do anything about this.

He first tried to commit suicide when he was like 15 and never was the same after this attempt. We realized, a bit later, that he was becoming schizophrenic... He was one of my best friends a few years ago, now we don't talk to each other any more.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:00 am

I want to play the devil's advocate for a moment. What's more important, letting someone do what they *know* they have to do (disaster), or urging them to return to common, safe eh.. doings?

A case example, for those with no imagination. Choosing one career over the other rather than sticking to the old, with no monetary concerns for the future. Motivation to change careers: the other career lets you base jump from the roof of a sky scraper every day. It happens to be the only thing that really makes you feel alive.

Edit: rephrase, 'feel anything'.