Fighter vs Mage forum

[Buster]

@ Jedi or Crenshinibon

I've invited Sator over to look at this thread and would like to ask you two the same question I had for him,

If the fighter goes invisible as you are casting time stop, can you target him to use the mindflayer tactic?

Thanks

[Silvanerian]

as a side note on PnP sounds fun no overpowered mages. but then how do you face enemies such as dragons or liches if a pansy level 4 stone skin costs you 1k gold and you need 4h to memoerize ??

Short answer: You don't face dragons or liches unless you want to end up as a snack ; )
Dragons are very much toned down in the game compared to what they were really meant to be.


The 3rd level mage spell "Haste" ages the recipient 1 year by the way ... interesting way to kill a fighter ; )


@Crenshinibon:
Exactly my point about cheese/bug abuse: Utilizing such tactics enables any character to overwhelm any obstacle, which, in essence, nullifies any reasonable discussing.

Same with a fighter using the "protection from magic" on a mage - sort of annihilates the whole discussion..

[Crenshinibon]

When a creature is invisible, it cannot be attacked or targeted with spells, although, I do believe that area of effect spells still work... some of them, like Fireball and Cloudkill. Are of Effect spells that have any effect on the creature that is not damage are nulled.

If that happens, you can't really do anything at this point as if you cast any Scrying spell, it will complete after Time Stop has ended.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

no mind flayer cheese won't work on the invisible but a mage has true sight and many clones if you cast it with a delay they'll be going off every 0.5 seconds so I'd have to have really ad luck to finish casting TS in the 0.5 half second where ur invisible before the next True sight

[Crenshinibon]

Ah, but in the case of a Monk that used stealth and has a Cloak of Non-Detection equipped, that does not work.

[Buster]

1) Would a ranger/stalker have the same advantage as the monk?

2) If the caster sees that the fighter goes invis and decides while in time stop to *nuke* the area with lets say cloudkill or fireball will the mage take damage as well? If so then the fighter will hope that his prot/hps/saves are better than the mages.......yes?

Thanks

[Crenshinibon]

Any area of effect spells effect everyone in the area unless specifically stated. The fighter's saves tend to be much better than those of a mage. With area of effect nukes it might be a tad risky.

Any class that has the hide in shadows ability as well as an equipped Cloak of Non-Detection is immune to any scrying spell.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

same will apply to a mage with staff of cheese and cloak of non detection, sigh we could all camp out all day but a mage is still superior in every way to monk: just ask yourself who you would rather have at your side in a tough fight a mage simply has more flexibility while still retaining destructive power for nearly all situations and remember that planetars can see through invisibility, I'm trying to think if a monk can win vs 20 planetars probably he can but at least I'd get more damage on you then you'd get on me

oh wait I just thought of something planetars attack you forceing you to attack back you lose invisibility ---> wand from the sewers ---> you have 1 hp

anyway I'm the wrong person to argue for a mage you'd need to talk to someone whose solo'ed the class. Or, go read UU's guide to a successfull adventure (a.k.a. cheese guide), then you'll see how a mage can demolish a fighter type without breaking sweat, provided none camp all day with invisibility + cloak of non-detection.

another fair way to look at it is to throw both of us in the ring with no equipment, gladiator style I'd be betting on my sorc any time: approperiate contingency + TS + nuke(s) = KO except even then the advantage goes to the monk because he's designed to rock without any equipment


edit: a good mage will know how to use his nukes with out taking damage

edit 2: @ buster the nukes will go off once TS finishes so a mage has plenty of time to move away if he happens to be in the blast radius (a good mage would'nt be in the blast radius though)

[Crenshinibon]

I soled both classes before. Feel free to ask me.

Don't forget that the wand from the sewers is usable by everyone. Not just a mage.

Actually, your first statement is incorrect. The Cloak of Non-Detection only protects characters that are in stealth mode from scrying spells. Invisibility and the like are still found, even if you're wearing cloak.

Well, in the time it takes you to cast twenty planetars... do you *really* think that your opponent will be just standing there? I know that I'd be attacking you. Once more, feel free to come and try this on Gamespy Arcade with me.

When we start a duel, you have fun casting Contigency with a monk pummeling at you, as I do not like to think of "prebuffing" as fair. So, alright, no items. You'd probably cast Stoneskin first, which would give you 15 skins at level 31. At 10 attacks per round with Greater Whirlwind, the spell would be done in 1.5 round, with 5 other attacks hitting. After one round of casting stoneskin, 5 skins remaining for you, you'd probably begin casting contigency. Remember, no robe of Vecna. So, unless it's one of those instant cast spells (I don't remember if it is) it will most likely get interrupted. By the end of the first round, my Whirlwind would have ended and I can cast again and attack without waiting.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

The wand is available to all classes but only a mage of a certain aligment can smuggle it out (again I know it from reading, too cheesy for me to implement so I'm not sure which aligment, you need the right familiar)

regardless, items or no many mage spells that grant (improved) invisibility are insta cast. Just by having the ability to go invisible I have the advantage. IIRC monks can't detect invisibility in anyway, (I'm wracking my brains trying to think of an item useable by a monk that would do this) correct me if I'm wrong.

I have no expieriece with that cloak, I've had it many times but in single player you don't need that cheese, that cloak was mostly decoration. what you say would fit however, I remember a Kensai/thief being undetectable even by true sight with it equiped, however I abandoned that char because he was not in my taste.

Another thing, whats with assuming (incorrectly) that I would act as any noob computer controlled mage and begin the fight by casting SS
since you've solo'ed both Sorc and Monk, I need not tell you that chain contingency is instant, or of the spell "protection from magic weapons" or that your fists are considered magic weapons and I'm sure you can add these facts together.

Regardless just think of what's in old Jonaleths chain contingency at the tree of life; he is immune to everything, and I've been a monk in that situation and I can tell you whatever is in his chain contingency stops a monk cold. Actually not only a monk Carsomyr +5 could not hit him either.
Only a barrage of debuffing spells from my mages made him vulnerable.... a luxury no fighter class has,... well perhaps the inquisitor which is the class you should be argueing for in a fighter vs mage thread.

In a ring you also can't go invisible even if you have 200 in hide in shadows you can't do this if your within an enemies field of vision, (lets use the ring in the underdark as an example)

Anyway I'm shocked that your argueing for monk haveing expierienced the raw power of a sorceror. having played the monk from the start up untill the meeting with Baltherzar I'd take edwin over him for any hard fight.

edit: as for the planetar army; Planetars have a casting time of 5 only 3 sec. The next chain contingency would contain 3x project image, which could then also cast chain contingency with protections, or start casting planetars after running in diffrent directions to maximize the time they have to cast before you kill them off also with no items you are also unfortunatly vulnerable to Dragon breath IMO a fighter type benifits more from items than a mage though the loss of vecna and staff of magi would hurt....

I'm not sure what tactics would work best against a monk for that well you tell me or we'll wait for some other person who has solo'ed a sorc. they can give you a round by round by round description on how to Anhialiate the Monk

[Lark]

Some more comments and answers

@Buster

The Periapt(?) of Proof against Poison is an amulet that I have used that also gives immunity to poison.

Please note that there is a difference between immunitity to poison effect and resistance to poison damage. Only the latter protects against the damage that Cloudkill deals. There are onfortunately only few possibilities to aquire resistance to poison damage. Being a monk of sufficient level, being a druid of sufficient level, being a rogue of sufficient level to wear the Thieves' Hood or wearing The Ring of Antidote all protects 100%. The Helm of the Rock grants only 25% resistance. The Ring of Antidote is the only option for a single classed Wizard.

@Crenshinibon

Lark: As Buster said, these potions do exist. Check the GB list for their locations. I do not have any mods installed but do have the latest patch.

I think, you misunderstood him. He said: "[...]but for the life of me I don't remember running across any."
Do you remember where you did come across these potions, and in what quantity? GB wasn't very helpful in that respect: "Potion of Magic Blocking (POTN33) Location(s) Various locations throughout Faerun" The readmes of the official patches for [url="http://www.bioware.com/games/shadows_amn/support/patches/"]SoA[/url] and [url="http://www.bioware.com/games/throne_bhaal/support/patches/"]ToB[/url] didn't give much insight either.
However, those potions are no unsurmountable obstacle, since they are vulnerable to Dispel/Remove Magic.

Actually, your first statement is incorrect. The Cloak of Non-Detection only protects characters that are in stealth mode from scrying spells. Invisibility and the like are still found, even if you're wearing cloak.

While you are right with the rest, the Invisibility granted by the Staff of the Magi will be protected by the Cloak of Non-Detection. It's easy to test. Enter the Adventurers Mart with only the Staff equipped - Ribald will reveal you. Now do the same with the Staff and the Cloak. Ribald won't be able to reveal you anymore.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't think that a fight without any equipment is fair - for the monk. I can't see any way to win for the monk, and not even a way to avert defeat.
Some humble questions for the monk:
How does the monk deal with:
- Protection from Magic Weapons (cast time 1)
- all kinds of Invisibility, especially Mislead (cast time 1)
- Timestop
- the fact that Contingencies can be loaded and fired instantly (cast time 0)
- the fact that his Magic Resistance can be diminished or circumvented.

Although I think, a fight without equipment is by no means fair for the Monk it serves nonetheless well to discuss some strategies. I'd say the best way is to compare Wizards and Warriors strategically, and only looking at tactics if they are relevant for strategies.
The goal of the duel is to bring the opponent into a condition that results in the "disintegrating hand". Chars can do the following to reach this goal in each round:
-make his allowed number of attacks (for free),
-make one spell equivalent action (for a fee),
-move around.
If one opponent can prevent the other from doing some of the above while remaning to be able to do so himself, he gains a strategic advantage. A strategic advantage alone is not yet sufficient. The goal is the disintegrating hand. If he can make use of the advantage to achieve this goal, he wins, otherwise not.

The Monk can make many attacks per round at a good THAC0, while the Sorceror has only one attack per round at a pitiful THAC0. There is no denying that the Monk is clearly superior to the Sorceror in Melee.
There is no question either, that the Sorceror is superior to the Monk in spellcasting. Both have access to "spells": The Monk to his class abilities and HLAs, the Sorceror to his spellbook. The Sorcerer has more spells: quantity ,and better spells: quality (compare for example Timestop to GWW, Greater Alacrity to Quivering Hand). While the Monk has to Rest to regain his "spells", the Sorceror has access to [url="http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/EndlessSpells.htm"]Endless Spells Strategies[/url].
While the Monk is limited to one spell equivalent action per round, the Sorcerer has more than one in the same time:
-Triggers
-Contingencies
-Timestop
-Greater Alacrity
-Summons, that cast spells for him, especially Clones
-a combination of the above

At the expense of one 6th level spell slot the Sorceror can cast PfmW and thus deny the Monk his advantage for the duration of 4 rounds, while keeping his own - spellcasting. The Sorceror is now at a clear advantage. Since most of the Monks abilities only work in conjunction with attacks, the only spell equivalent action that would affect the Sorceror in this state would be Warcry.
If the Sorceror casts Mislead and manages to protect the Mislead Clone, he denies the Monk his advantages for 20 rounds, of course this has a price too: At least one 6th level spell slot to cast Mislead and one 2nd level spell slot to cast Invisibility on the Mislead Clone, it will probably cost more if it has to be safe: Load a Contingency with Mislead, fire it and cast Invisibility on the clone in the same round (ct 2), Load a Chain Contingency with for example Mislead, Simulacrum and Mass Invisibility, etc.
The question is now: Is this strategic advantage worth its price? Can the Sorceror make use of it? I think so.
The Monk would have to prevent this, trying to make the Sorceror waste his investment. I can't see how he could achieve this. There is nowhere to run, since we're talking about a duel in the drow arena. There is nowhere to hide, not even in the drow arena, which features conveniently a pillar behind which the Monk can fade into stealth mode: The Monk doesn't have means to deal with invisibility, but the Sorcerer has.


If we add equipment, the picture changes a bit, but the basic thoughts remain. The Monk will still have not much of a chance, but at least he will last longer. More about that another time.


Best regards,
Lark

[Buster]

@ Jedi Please don't take this personally, because I will make this statement again, when a spellcaster can use contingencies and sequencers it's ok but when a fighter uses a cloak of mirroring or stack hardiness or use potions and scrolls it's nothing but pure cheese......please if you can use it in a one - on - one battle then I say use it.

The arena I had in mind was one of the ones mentioned before like the one in the CC or the Druid Grove or even the Drow arena, no place to run and hide and even if you had the battle in the wide open spaces when timestop stopped the fighter would run too to escape the area effects.

@ Lark Could you please explain to me in a little more detail the difference between immunity to poison effect and resistance to poison damage I can't seem to wrap my mind around that.

Also could you give me your *picture* with a properly perpared Barbarian instead of a Monk? Because I'm going to agree with Crenshinibon that whoever is the most prepaired for a specific fight and who clicks the button first will probably win.

Thanks

[Jedi_Sauraus]

when did I ever say the fight would would be unfair for a sorc. because of all the "cheese" a fighter has if you interpreted something I posted along those lines it was certanly not my intention. or are you saying I can't use chain contingencies ???? they are overpowered and hence were removed from 3E rules but I don't consider them cheese.

The mage has more access to cheese, and even with no cheese I think Lark made a pretty good breakdown of the fight a few posts back.

1) stacking hardiness would'nt bother me at all, if I'm going to hit you it's as a mind flayer and you can have 1000% resistance and I will still 3 hit kill you.

2) I would reccomend setting one guideline... no "Camping" I mean, sure all of us can manage to become invisible and stay there for extended durations, but thats not the point of this fight.

3) with an anything goes mentality all cheeses available the mage can probably win without casting a single spell; rift device + ring of ram all from a
3x chain contingency project image on self. for this fight to be fair I would place the restriction on myself not to use rift device since it's too unfair for you

4) Since we want this fight to be as fair as possible the only 2 scenarios are either all, or nothing. all items (barring rift device for the mage) or none.
you can't really say "if you don't use vecna I won't use item X and if you don't use staff of magi I won't use item Y and therefore in this situation I would beat you"

5) a barbarian would be even less equipped to fight then a monk, because with the monk the mage has to waste time getting around his magic resistance. for all intents and purposes their equal in melee in this fight. both have thaco in the negative teens many attack per round ect. if they get past the mages protections he's dead. I would be interested in Larks comparison of a Inquisitor vs Sorc. his dispell and true sight could really hurt a mage though I'm sure with the right strategies the mage would win.

[Buster]

@ Jedi I apologize, for some reason I had you confused with someone else.

However my statement will still stand as a general statement.

Lark's summary is very comprehensive and I learned alot, however it's a little one dimensional.

When battling one-on-one it's more two dimensional, more like a chess game, anticipating and preparing for the next move, yours and his. So I will stick to my second statement of my previous post.

Please don't underestimate the lowly Barb. They can achieve some decent resistances coupled with rage make him very formidable.

Thanks

[Lark]

Immunity to poison effect protects you against that, what an antidote cures. If you get hit by a spider and fail your save vs. death, you will be affected with the poison effect and will begin to twitch for some time. Resistance to poison damage protects you from the damage you recieve. But immunity to poison effect prevents being poisoned in the first place. Some weapons and spells do poison damage, without affecting you with the poison effect. For example the poison flail head of the FoA and for example Cloudkill. Equip the Ring of Gaxx and step into your Cloudkill, you will be harmed. Equip the Ring of Antidote, you will be unscathed.

Lark

PS I'll answer to the rest tomorrow.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

@ Buster

1) no offense taken it was an honest mistake, sometimes when I post at 3:00 am I write things that are ambiguous I was relieved to find out somebody else posted about the cheese.

2) a Monk is still alot better than a barbarian for fighting a mage (not in general)

- both of them have thacos that will hit a mage on anything but a natural 1, no advantages here

- AC, the monks will probably be higher but it makes no diffrence a mage will not hit you in melee. no advantages here

- damage resistance for the barbarian, as before I will not be hitting you

- speed both are natually fast though the monk is faster I think. slight advantage to monk but not really important

Barbarian pro's for this fight: Rage (only 30 seconds) and hit points
Monks: a natural magic resistance of 7x forget the value, but easly upgraded to over 100% , immunities and better saving throws.

both will kill a mage in 1 round if his defenses go down (they won't )

@ Lark, if you have 100% resistance to poison damage (not effect) your not taking any damage so it won't distrupt spell casting ???? that would make them equivalent. Or does it distrupt casting even while doing 0 damage. Regardless a ring can take care of it as you ponted out. go mage team

[Crenshinibon]

Actually as we're simulating this one in an arena setting, the only thing that will save the mage is the contingency. If the monk's resistance reaches 100% doesn't that make the make pretty much ineffective?

[Lark]

@Jedi_Sauraus

@ Lark, if you have 100% resistance to poison damage (not effect) your not taking any damage so it won't distrupt spell casting ?

Unfortunately not. Even if you have 100% resistance to a type of damage, and don't recieve any damage, the fact alone that you are hit will disrupt your spells. But luckily there are ways to deal with spell disruption. Mirror Image for example protects you from being hit with area damage, casting spells with low casting times, using Triggers and Contingencies, using scrolls, but more about spell failure later.

@Buster

Lark's summary is very comprehensive and I learned alot, however it's a little one dimensional.

Since the fight is without items, the Monk hasn't much options. In fact he has only one: Warcry. He has even a chance to win albeit only a very slim one, and only when the Sorcerer is careless. Trying to stun the Sorcerer with Warcry until his protections run out, and then trying to kill him with Quivering Hand. (Why not using Smite or GWW once the protections have run out? It might be that the Sorcerer has set up a contingency to renew his protections triggering when he recieves damage, so the Monk has better try to kill him with one blow.) So it may indeed seem 'one dimensonal'. The Monk needs items to have options, the Sorcerer has options without them.

@Crenshinibon

If the monk's resistance reaches 100% doesn't that make the mage pretty much ineffective?

Not at all. It would impress him not.

Some humble questions for the monk:
How does the monk deal with:
- Protection from Magic Weapons (cast time 1)
- all kinds of Invisibility, especially Mislead (cast time 1)
- Timestop
- the fact that Contingencies can be loaded and fired instantly (cast time 0)
- the fact that his Magic Resistance can be diminished or circumvented

After protecting himself the wizard has the option of lowering the Monk's magic resistance using Lower Resistance, Pierce Magic or Pierce Shield or he just relies on spells that ignore magic resistance like for example Sunfire or Dragon's Breath. The combination of Timestop+Shapechange:Mindflayer or Timestop+Imprisonment is not affected by magic resistance as well, etc. If he likes to and is not adversed to cheese, he can use even [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn-9/how-to-make-your-spells-ignore-magic-resistance-79690.html"]tricks[/url] to make his spells ignore magic resistance.

Best regards,
Lark

Some general thoughts about duels of wizards vs. warriors. Let us assume that no items means for the purpose of our duels only items that can be obtained in the Treestump Tavern in Saradush. The following scenarios are possible:
Warrior (no items) vs. Wizard (no items): Wizard wins
Warrior (no items) vs. Wizard (all items): Wizard wins
Warrior (all items) vs. Wizard (all items): Wizard wins most likely
Warrior (all items) vs. Wizard (no items): an interesting battle, nonetheless my bets will be on the Wizard
Warriors need items to survive, Wizards get by even without items.

[Buster]

After reading most of the older posts (2001 to about 2003) I will have to concede a couple of things;

1) This topic (thread) does come up every so often so to those who have had these threads before this one I apologize and thank you for them.

2) As long as the Wizard can use the Staff of Magi and use the mutiple cloning strategy the Warrior would have a slim to none chance of winning the fight. Even the crappiest Wizard with a very low IQ can win with the SoM, it would be just a matter of time.

@ Lark, in reguards to your "general thoughts about duels of Wizards vs Warriors";

A Wizard equipped with *all items* would indeed win (see above),

however with a Warrior equipped with *all items* and the Wizard none the chances of victory would be much higher for the Warrior.

Without the SoM a Wizard without alot of invisiblity couldn't hide from the Warrior and in an arena setting any area damage would effect both combatants and the Warrior with better saves/hps/resistances would probably prevail.

Timestop + anything (at least in the game) hasn't proved to be a big problem.
The Timestop + shapeshift:mindflayer I don't think is a powerful as one might think. Before I go into the Mindflayer area in the Temple sewers I drink 2-3 potions of mind focusing and the mind shield blip shows up in the avatar. With 25 INT I go in clear out the area and come out with my INT at 19. Unless AI mindflayer damage is less than a char mindflayer damage is then it's not a big deal.

I know that there is still a little bit of a debate about wether an enraged Barbarian can or can't be imprisoned, all I can say is that I've played a Barb many times at least through Ch 2 (and a few beyond) solo and in a party and have yet to be imprisoned. I have even stood there and tried to be imprisoned while enraged and it hasn't happened yet (at least to me).

I know that game AI is pretty sucky but at this time that's all I can go on.

Thanks,

Buster

[Celacena]

this is a really interesting thread and has given me a few ideas - I do think the game is biased towards spellcasters, but there are times when a weapon that kills almost instantly (those with vorpal tendencies) is more use than unrehearsed magicical response. a party combines the trickery of a caster, who can both counter and overcome other casters PLUS the naked killing capacity of the vorpal weapons augmented by the HLAs to bring that to bear.

in theory, a dualled mage wielding the silver sword has 25% chance of an instakill so with haste during a time stop should dispose of anything - but it never seems to work out like that. if the pre-dualled fighter goes for two handed swords ***** in that, even at levels 8-12 should get hits in. does the mage get their time stop? have they the right contingencies for what has been sprung on them?

the axe or the polearm also have vorpal features and Mazzy using either combined with fighter HLAs, can clear a swathe through massed ranked of medium-high level enemies easier than a mage responding to events. in a set-piece, where the mage knows what to expect, I would expect a mage to win, just about every time - contingencies plus time stop then tailored magical (or physical) attack will see off most enemies or groups of enemies.

IF we are role-playing and reacting, rather than planning, the mage alone may not be in such a good situation. it takes a hell of a lot of planning for anybody to out-plan a mage, unless cheesy exploits not in the spirit of the RPG are used.

a power gamer can take all the sponteneity out of their experience and being 'prepared for anything' can make the game little more than a sophisticated powered-up pacman. enemy sighted - fraction of a second later, the enemy has uber-protected clones to deal with and is dead, mazed or imprisoned within seconds. even Saruman didn't do that.

a bit of unpreparedness, a bit of NPC teamwork - they contribute to the enjoyment of the game. it feels GOOD to tag-team a situation - one mage debuffs, another exposes or exploits the exposure, cleric harms only the enemy, druid disrupts the enemy and the fighters close in for the kill, protected by the casters - instead of a 2 minute or more gorefest, you get a bang-bang-bang-bang tatoo of experts doing what they do well as a TEAM.
there is a satisfaction of having a team reaction to circumstances - when I recently faced the army of beserk duergars - it almost went wrong - but that is the fun of playing a game.

this discussion of total-exploit uber-combat is interesting and has its place, but the fun of it is mostly in the gaming experience.