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Decline and Direction in RPGs

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dragon wench
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Decline and Direction in RPGs

Post by dragon wench »

There have been many threads and posts here in various forums lamenting the decline of RPGs, I'm hoping here to branch out from that discussion a little bit.

So first of all, do you feel the RPG genre has went downhill? Secondly, and more to the point for the purposes of this topic, where do you think RPGs are headed from here? Do you think we'll continue to see games that are glorified first person shooters with an emphasis on sexy graphics as opposed to content (a criticism that has been levelled at Oblivion), or do you feel a shred of optimism that RPGs might return to something of years past?

If so, how would such a return come about? Consumer demand, and the results of market research? Some unlikely form of divine intervention? :D

Thoughts?
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Post by fable »

A post has been removed. Please note that this isn't a joke thread. A serious question is being posed. It should be responded to, seriously.
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Post by galraen »

dragon wench wrote:There have been many threads and posts here in various forums lamenting the decline of RPGs, I'm hoping here to branch out from that discussion a little bit.

So first of all, do you feel the RPG genre has went downhill? Secondly, and more to the point for the purposes of this topic, where do you think RPGs are headed from here? Do you think we'll continue to see games that are glorified first person shooters with an emphasis on sexy graphics as opposed to content (a criticism that has been levelled at Oblivion), or do you feel a shred of optimism that RPGs might return to something of years past?

If so, how would such a return come about? Consumer demand, and the results of market research? Some unlikely form of divine intervention? :D

Thoughts?
I'm afraid I'm very pesemistic, it's gone so far downhill that death valley looks like up. Developers have decided that only young boys matter, and that they are only interested in flashy graphics and quick and easy to finish hack and slash games, preferrably with scantily clad hot chicks popping here and there.

Even D&D has abandoned real role playing, it's now just a free for all where you can bolt on anything you like, Paladins can pick pockets, or become assassins.

Alignment is now a meaningless label. Take NWN2, in Chapter one the first 'companion' you meet is a chaotic Dwarven thug posing as neutral good, the next a chaotic evil thief pretending to be neutral, the third a neutral good (!!) druid.

Real CRPGs are a thing of the past, and unfortunately unless the developers suddenly realise there's a market out there that's been, or being lost, and they are passing up an oportunity to make money, in the past they will remain.

Independants might keep the genre alive, that's our only hope really, otherwise it's RIP RPGs.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.

And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Post by dragon wench »

@galraen,
I hate to say it (just because it's so damned depressing), but I tend to agree with you. Every so often I feel a glimmer of hope that maybe developers will look back to some of the older RPGs and figure there's a viable market out there for real RPGs (I mean BG2, as one example, sold extremely well).
But, most of the time, I simply assume that great RPGs with a real story, depth and NPC interaction are a thing of the past.

What boggles my mind, though, is how quickly this seems to have happened... We went from BG2 and similar games to the utter emptiness of NWN. And now, the truly sad thing is that games such as IWD/IWD2 (which, in my view, paled in comparison to other products of the time) actually look good in contrast to more recent "gifts" from the industry. :rolleyes:

So what happened in those few short years? Was it the advent of gaming consoles? Is the gaming industry forcing the direction to glossy and empty games because they are cheaper and easier to produce?

My, probably futile, hope is that indies (like the guys at Broken Hourglass) will generate interest in real RPGs... enough so that this serves as a wakeup call to the mainstream industry. But....there's probably about as much chance of that happening as there is of "The Second Coming." :rolleyes: *sigh*
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Post by BlueSky »

dragon wench wrote:What boggles my mind, though, is how quickly this seems to have happened... We went from BG2 and similar games to the utter emptiness of NWN. And now, the truly sad thing is that games such as IWD/IWD2 (which, in my view, paled in comparison to other products of the time) actually look good in contrast to more recent "gifts" from the industry. :rolleyes: : *sigh*
How true, this old school gamer thinks its not going to get any better anytime soon. Maybe that's why so many of us play and replay those oldies but goodies. I was so let down by the console BG, :( ..........tried Fable, it was interesting but one was forced in a line toward the end. Morrowind is the closest I come to enjoying a RPG in years, but even then I tended to tweak it with various mods for diversity, and I kinda miss the party action and interaction between the NPC's. Oh well....back to Morrowind :laugh:

but I do have to add that the occasionale scanty clad female appeals to the inner teenage boy in this 50 something....LOL:angel:
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Post by Magrus »

I have been mulling over how to go about starting a thread on discussing something I have been thinking of lately. Mostly when I see people whining about games lately. I'll agree, game design has gone down the tubes since I was younger in plot. However, I feel I should make a point on a few games in particular that have been taking abuse from people on the boards here.

Yes, the NWN series, Oblivion and Morrowind all have flaws. All games do, the latter having less than the previous three mentioned. However, I remember playing Daggerfall. Which I thought was the most incredible game ever when it first came out. It had ground breaking options that were never seen before. Morrowind stepped this up with better graphics, surreal surroundings, a more expansive world, etc, etc. It was a hit. Oblivion came and it flopped.

Why? Not just because it ended up a dumbed down version to appease the masses who wanted to kill, kill and kill without thought. No, it lacked the innovative edge that those who stumbled onto Daggerfal, or the original Myst, or Baldurs Gate fell in love with. The problem being, people are looking for specific things that don't fall in with what the game designers are trying. I have to point out, even if the game designers were catering to the wishes of most of those here, and made the games just like say, Morrowind, you would have what? Another Morrowind. With a different story, and different quests, and....it would just be like all of the mods people are putting out.

If they popped out another Baldur's Gate. People would complain that it was either just not the same, too much was change, or it was too much of the same. When you find a favorite game, it becomes immortalized in your mind. You gloss over the bad and make the good better. So, when something else comes along that happens to have a few things you don't like, it pales in comparison to that old favorite that was "perfect".

Not only that, people are missing out on the fact that first set of games I mentioned are having a different purpose. I have been reading the "I wanted a good game, not a sandbox" people throw at NWN 2. There is a new crowd that has been growing over the past 4-5 years. That of the crowd that not only wants to play a game, but make a game. Their game. The people that simply wanted a game with great gameplay and replay value got screwed on that. Why? The replay value isn't made into the game you play. It is made in the toolset engine.

As people become more tech savvy, and even though I am not, my generation has become astoundingly tech savvy around me, this will continue to happen. Put simply, the crowd who either wants a quick way to do some quests and kill some stuff has outnumbered those who want an intelligent game. Tossing in the group who see the game as a toolset to make their own with the actual gameplay being a neat-o showcase in what can be done in the toolset that blows away everyone else.

I wanted to start my own little independant company and make my own RPG's. However, the problem is the incredible amount of time, effort, and money that goes into creating games. Even if you went back to 8 or 16 bit graphics, there is still a lot of conceptual planning, thought, and depth going into these things. No one is willing to pay for that anymore. At least not in the amount of money necessary to fund making a game. Not enough to make people like me quit our jobs and be able to support ourselves while creating the game over the next year or three. So, unless you gather together a million people to fork over a few million dollars to loan to a game development team, it is doubtful you will get what you want out of a game. :(
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Post by galraen »

You make some good points Magrus, especially regarding the expandability of Morrowind. The game itself kept me going for some time, but it was the availability of so many mods that has kept it going for literally years. Every 3 months or so I download a new set of mods and have another go.

However when it comes to NWN the crippling effect of the game system (3rd edition D&D) limits the expandability to such an extent that it's pointless. I spent a lot of time working on a campaign for NWN. I built a third of what was supposed to be the city that would be the starting point and base of the campaign. When I finished that sector of the city I then got it play tested and found to my horror that the characters were getting really close to the level limit, and I still had two thirds of the city to go, let alone the bulk of the campaign. Even cutting down the XP awards to minimum would have left the player with no character development left by the time the planned city was completed.

Oblivion is also extremely limiting in expandability terms, because again you ae restricted by the dumbed down engine. Your scope for development is severely hampered by the pathetic number of skills now available for example. I had a mod in mind for some time, which I had decided to sit on until Oblivion was released, but now I'm going to create it for Morrowind instead. Something I've noticed quite a few other seem to be doing as well.

As for having a penchant for scantily clad females Bluesky, I'm as guilty as the next guy for having a predeliction for the female form in all its glory. But not in an RPG, unless its in Deselles bordello maybe. ;) . However the ridiculous design of so called armour borders on the ludicrous. The Bladewitch 'armour' in Dungeon Lords for example, what lass with an IQ over 60 is going to leave vast amounts of flesh exposed for hacking by wearing such eye candy for boys?
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.

And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Post by fable »

Removed a couple of one-line posts unrelated to the thread topic.
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Post by Kipi »

galraen wrote:I'm afraid I'm very pesemistic, it's gone so far downhill that death valley looks like up. Developers have decided that only young boys matter, and that they are only interested in flashy graphics and quick and easy to finish hack and slash games, preferrably with scantily clad hot chicks popping here and there.
I'm afraid that developers think that way since such games DO sell more today than games with deeper plot and requirement of more thinking. If any part of the game requires more than 5 minutes of thinking/exploring to be solved, players tend to surf on different sites to find help since they don't want to stop to think longer. For example, I've seen in various sites many players who has asked where to find The Graveyard in D2's chapter one because they haven't been able to find it in 5 minutes... :rolleyes:

One very good prove that plot has hardly any meaning today was one review of Oblivion I read few days ago, where the author very clearly stated that "it's only good that you can throw the main plot of the game to the nearest lake and just focus exploring beautiful environment and build up your character". Now, if I wanted to only focus on building up my character, I would get a tamagotchi (spelling?) or start playing The Sims.
Alignment is now a meaningless label. Take NWN2, in Chapter one the first 'companion' you meet is a chaotic Dwarven thug posing as neutral good, the next a chaotic evil thief pretending to be neutral, the third a neutral good (!!) druid.
That's totally true. How many games offers you the ability to choose your alignment, but actually forces you to play as Lawfull Good character? Hundreds. And how many games really offers you the possibility to play the alignment you want? Hardly any. The only ones coming to my mind are Morrowind and Fallout 2. (Haven't played Oblivion so hard to say if it's possible there...). The alignment is only a static that makes you feel that you could actually affect things when you really can. BG2 made it pretty well when your party was dependable on your alignment as some alignments didn't come along with each other. I know many of you are going to say that it's only realistic that it's impossible to survive as bad guy. That's true but why then offer the possibility to choose that your character is bad guy?
dragon wench wrote: So what happened in those few short years? Was it the advent of gaming consoles? Is the gaming industry forcing the direction to glossy and empty games because they are cheaper and easier to produce?
I would say that he possibilities in graphic area has increased exponentially. During the old good times the possibilities in graphic weren't that big, so the developers had to find other ways to make their games better than rest. And the best options were plot, mechanism of the game, dialogies and so on. Now, when each month we get new better graphic cards, developers can compete against each other by just developing the graphics of the game. And since the publishers want the game out more and more quickly, there is hardly any time to devote to plot or to anything else than graphics. And that's sad :(
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