the fate of saddam

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:38 am

Luis Antonio wrote:Well, honestly, he deserved it, though I see no good outcome from a death.

I'm not sure whether you're saying that the death penalty serves no useful purpose, but I agree with you to some extent. I've been saying for years that I'd be glad to see Saddam Hussein killed for all the terrible things he has done (a grenade thrown into the "spider hole" where he was captured would have been fine with me, which is exactly what I said at the time). But now that he has been executed, I don't feel any joy at all. In fact, I feel empty inside when I think about it. A lot of people might be happy that justice was served (even though in my opinion this particular trial was a sham), but I really don't think it makes the world a better place. You have to ask, "What's next?" and the future for Iraq doesn't look all that great.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:41 am

VonDondu wrote:I'm not sure whether you're saying that the death penalty serves no useful purpose, but I agree with you to some extent. I've been saying for years that I'd be glad to see Saddam Hussein killed for all the terrible things he has done (a grenade thrown into the "spider hole" where he was captured would have been fine with me, which is exactly what I said at the time). But now that he has been executed, I don't feel any joy at all. In fact, I feel empty inside when I think about it. A lot of people might be happy that justice was served (even though in my opinion this particular trial was a sham), but I really don't think it makes the world a better place. You have to ask, "What's next?" and the future for Iraq doesn't look all that great.

But the question is, would it be worse if Saddam still lives? I personally think that it's best that Saddam is dead, especially for Iraq.

Gauda · Post by **Gauda** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:12 am

From a personal perspective, I just don't see how someone can be joyful by one's death, no matter what. It just makes me sad.

From a political perspective, I think the states would go wrong either way: Saddam had a somewhat powerful voice, which influenced many, but now he is likely to be made a martyr, which will have the same effect. Either way, the hell that the Bush started, is difficult to see an end of.

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:21 am

Hm.... I wonder if it would be better to have Saddam in prison until he died of natural causes, instead of hanging him. It is after all easier to make a dead man a martyr rather than a living one.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:06 am

He died about 12 hours ago, so the point's moot.

DaemonJ · Post by **DaemonJ** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:25 pm

Fiberfar wrote:Hm.... I wonder if it would be better to have Saddam in prison until he died of natural causes, instead of hanging him. It is after all easier to make a dead man a martyr rather than a living one.

True but then you have to take into account the housing, care, and feeding of the individual for that time period. In addition, you have to consider possible chances of escape.

In the end it is just more efficient to kill them and conserve the resources.

ik911 · Post by **ik911** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:28 pm

Does anyone keep a record of who's martyr for what or why?

And if so, can I apply for a place on that list for an ideal I have, that might get me killed if I express it in the wrong audience, without the actual technicality of dying?

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:35 pm

DaemonJ wrote:True but then you have to take into account the housing, care, and feeding of the individual for that time period. In addition, you have to consider possible chances of escape.

In the end it is just more efficient to kill them and conserve the resources.

I find this notion about efficiency troubling.

I don't feel that the justice was served: it looks like a speedy revenge of a rival tribe due to the mockery of the so-called trial.
They tried to make the execution very theatrical as well: Saddam was executed alone, right before the start of Eid ul-Adha, or Feast of Sacrifice, which is concluding the pilgrimage to Mecca.

Eid ul-Adha is the major Muslim Festival commemorating Ibrahim's willingness to obey Allah by sacrificing his son Ishmael (who is considered the forefather of Arabs).

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:34 pm

Lady Dragonfly wrote:I find this notion about efficiency troubling.

I don't feel that the justice was served: it looks like a speedy revenge of a rival tribe due to the mockery of the so-called trial.
They tried to make the execution very theatrical as well: Saddam was executed alone, right before the start of Eid ul-Adha, or Feast of Sacrifice, which is concluding the pilgrimage to Mecca.

Eid ul-Adha is the major Muslim Festival commemorating Ibrahim's willingness to obey Allah by sacrificing his son Ishmael (who is considered the forefather of Arabs).

Ah, I had wondered why it was a problem, but now I see that's quite bad taste.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:21 pm

Dubya and his Iraqi government have once again stabbed themselves in the foot on this one. Watch the Saddam Legend start up, the poor boy who rose to rule a nation, who was proclaimed guilty in a trial where the judges were several times replaced, while his attorneys were repeatedly kept in ignorance of information the prosecution had to let them know, and occasionally gunned down. Saddam used religion like he used everything else, cynically to his benefit, but watch him become a religious and national martyr in the next month or two.

The Shi'ites that support the government (a declining number) will be pleased for a while, but the Sunnis are angry as can be. More than 70 Iraqis were killed today, in Shi'ite areas, and the highest number of Americans since Bush declared the war over. It's really only the beginning.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:40 pm

Fiberfar wrote:Hm.... I wonder if it would be better to have Saddam in prison until he died of natural causes, instead of hanging him. It is after all easier to make a dead man a martyr rather than a living one.

As stated, the point is moot by now. But... I truly don't think the US administration wanted him alive, period. Imagine if he'd written his memoirs while in prison? No doubt those parts detailing his previously amicable dealings with Donald Rumsfeld would not have gone down especially well....

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:45 pm

He'd still have been turned into a martyr for suffering in prison. The whole thing is a mess.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:48 pm

Craig wrote:He'd still have been turned into a martyr for suffering in prison. The whole thing is a mess.

I think that if the trial had been conducted according to international norms, with complete transparency, and with all charges against Hussein processed, they might have escaped making a martyr of him. But throwing him to the US-implanted regime in an incredibly manipulated court, where so much was hidden and where the death sentence was carried out with remarkable haste--nobody is going to buy that. Except those in the US, UK and Iraq who want to continue believing the myth they created, that Hussein's removal would solve everything.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:57 pm

I didn't follow the trial =/

I did see some of it and figured it wasn't the most legitimate trial ever.

wing · Post by **wing** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:46 pm

Let me get this straight, with the whole 'martyr' thing.

If we kill him,(which we did) his people get mad and attack us.
If we hadn't killed him, he tells people to come and attack us.

Either way, we lose, right?

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:47 pm

dragon wench wrote:As stated, the point is moot by now.

Eh?

I've never heard the word 'moot' before

Anyways, I don't think that execution by hanging, or any other forms for execution will solve any problems, except his existance.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:05 pm

Fiberfar wrote:Eh?

I wrote after your last post:

He died about 12 hours ago, so the point's moot.

I've never heard the word 'moot' before

Something that's previously been decided.

Anyways, I don't think that execution by hanging, or any other forms for execution will solve any problems, except his existance.

It will certainly make things worse. The only question in my mind is whether it will be much worse, or much, much worse.

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:27 pm

Ah bugger... That was a typo I made there then. I was awake when he was hanged. I wrote it like he wasn't dead yet

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:37 pm

fable wrote:I think that if the trial had been conducted according to international norms, with complete transparency, and with all charges against Hussein processed, they might have escaped making a martyr of him. But throwing him to the US-implanted regime in an incredibly manipulated court, where so much was hidden and where the death sentence was carried out with remarkable haste--nobody is going to buy that. Except those in the US, UK and Iraq who want to continue believing the myth they created, that Hussein's removal would solve everything.

I think that would be very naive to think that the Saddam-loyal fractions and the fractions which would simply use him as an "icon" on anti-US/West in Iraq and rest of the middle east etc, would be "content" if the trial had been conducted more .... lets just call it legit ... and act accordingly.
There is no indication what so ever that the people in the situation in Iraq, the middle east or other fundamentalists behave rationally at pretty much any point in time, so I fail to see why any, sham or not, trial would be conceived otherwise. It would only help the "western" world in its explanation towards itself and justification for itself and actions.
The people who would make him a martyr would do so irregardless of the trial he got.

I have little doubt that a Saddam in prison (for life) would cause as many issues as a Saddam dead will.
This is also including that there are many (strong) factions and feelings in effect that wanted him death - if nothing else then for revenge for his tyranny and what effect it had on them.
These people would likely also have felt betrayed by a non-death sentence, which also could complicate progress in the area.
Also the supporters would not need to make a dead martyr out of him, but instead a living one - and thus would have the hope that he could be sprung free from prison, and presto a goal to work together on in unison despite other possible differences of ideology, which would/could mean various organizations united as it would be a seriously slap at the US.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:23 am

Saddam's death solves nothing.

"We wanted him to be executed on a special day." Iraqi National Security Adviser Mouwafak al-Rubaie

The first reaction of the Muslim world:

"The timing of this execution [during the Muslim feast of Eid al-Adha] is an affront to all Arabs and Muslims. It is an act of scorn against a great religion by the United States and the Iraqi government. Arab public opinion wonders who deserves to be tried and executed: Saddam Hussein who preserved the unity of Iraq, its Arab and Islamic identity and the coexistence of its different communities such as Shias and Sunnis ... or those who engulfed the country into this bloody civil war." Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the London-based Al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper

"We wish to say that Eid is a day for happiness and reconciliation. It is not a day for revenge." President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan

"We have no sympathy with Saddam Hussein, but we will also say that he did not get justice." Liaquat Baluch, a leader of the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal, a coalition of six religious parties in Pakistan

@Xandax

There is no indication what so ever that the people in the situation in Iraq, the middle east or other fundamentalists behave rationally at pretty much any point in time, so I fail to see why any, sham or not, trial would be conceived otherwise. It would only help the "western" world in its explanation towards itself and justification for itself and actions.
The people who would make him a martyr would do so irregardless of the trial he got.

Any trial must be fair and impartial regardless of political situation. Saddam's trial was a travesty of justice.

"The test of a government's commitment to human rights is measured by the way it treats its worst offenders. History will judge these actions harshly." Richard Dicker of Human Rights Watch