Games and societal taboos (no spam)

[r1ch1e]

Im on my way to kill the oriental leader forgot her name, Just after coming out the taxi when ines has been killed etc. Anyway Ive made my way down to the room with the waterwheel where the door is held shut by a sliding bar. I get the icon displayed to push/pull the bar but I just cannot do it? Possibly some kind of bug. Im using the 1.2 patch. Ive also done the -console thing so if theres a command I can type to get me past the door that would be great

[Anaximander]

Here is a thread discussing this issue.

But if you'd rather not read through all that, a quicker and easier solution is to use the noclip command in the console and walk right through the door. Be sure to turn noclip off again once you're through.

[r1ch1e]

thanks, save and reload seems to of solved it
Now just need to kill the big tentacled mutha.

[Anaximander]

Ahem - oops! I just realized that the creator of the video I linked here had modified his female Malk to be more... revealing than the original. Some of what can be seen in it would inappropriate for these forums, so... nevermind!

[Jhereg]

*** Spoilers ***

Check this out: Battle with Ming Xiao - a video guide to defeating the Keui-Jin high priestess. Works for any clan.

Lillith does know about semi-auto mode, right? In any case, I'll stick with my no-weapons Tremere Only, kill her without getting a scratch attack. Consumes no blood packs or ammo. Period. It's a lot quicker, too. About 25 hit points per attack.

[Anaximander]

Lillith does know about semi-auto mode, right? In any case, I'll stick with my no-weapons Tremere Only, kill her without getting a scratch attack. Consumes no blood packs or ammo. Period. It's a lot quicker, too. About 25 hit points per attack.

I'm sure the guy who made the video knows about full auto, but his character was built for melee. If he tried to use the spaz in full auto with his build, it would difficult to keep his sights on his target.

Tremere certainly have an easier time dealing with Ming Xiao than some other clans, but the method used in that video (which unfortunately I don't think I can post here) would work for anybody. The only power you need is Blood Buff.

[Jhereg]

*** Spoilers ***

I'm sure the guy who made the video knows about full auto, but his character was built for melee. If he tried to use the spaz in full auto with his build, it would difficult to keep his sights on his target.

Tremere certainly have an easier time dealing with Ming Xiao than some other clans, but the method used in that video (which unfortunately I don't think I can post here) would work for anybody. The only power you need is Blood Buff.

I was under the impression that a character's melee ability would have no affect on their ranged attack capability, and that was definitively a ranged attack all the way down the line to very near the end. Effectively, the two are separate. Or are you saying that his/her low ranged skill would cause problems with his/her ability to effectively use the Spaz in Semi-Auto? I noticed that his/her recoil seemed a bit much, so that makes sense. However, going in with a Melee character and using a Ranged attack seems a bit backward to me. By the time (s)he got to Melee, (s)he could have taken her with a butter knife.

I think I'll do a test run with a Range-capable character and see just how that shakes out. Now I'm curious. The Spaz and McKlusky can do heavy damage in capable hands, but at the same time, the 'Sue in suitably capable hands can wreak havoc as well. Perhaps the tactic is sound, but in that case, just not particularly well implemented - building for melee and resorting to ranged. Maybe building for and using range would be better.

Regrettably, I don't think a video is forthcoming. I've tried capture, but there seems to be a problem with the Codec.

[Anaximander]

Or are you saying that his/her low ranged skill would cause problems with his/her ability to effectively use the Spaz in Semi-Auto?

Exactly. In his character's hands, the Spaz has quite a bit of recoil. In full auto mode, the recoil would make it very difficult to control.

I agree that a character built for ranged combat would be much more effective at the strategy employed here. However, he is playing a Malkavian. His only defense is his Stamina, armor, and Defense feat. If he were to rush Xiao and go toe to toe with her, he probably wouldn't last very long. A second or even third Xiao-Squid would form and then it would all over. By hiding where he does, he's able to focus only one target - none of the others can reach him. It's slow, but it's safer than fighting her in the open, even for a character built for melee.

In my opinion, Malkavians and Nosferatu have more difficulty with Ming Xiao than any of the other clans. Tremere can take her down in seconds with Thaumaturgy. Ventrue and Gangrel are virtually indestructible with their combination of Presence/Fortitude and Protean/Fortitude respectively. Brujah and Toreador have Celerity, which can make even the most challenging fights pathetically easy. The only disciplines Malks and Nosferatu have that are really useful against her are Auspex and Potence. Hiding in the alcove and chipping away at her with a ranged weapon is the safest bet.

[Coruel]

Well, I'm surprised the Flamethrower isn't used - two loads of that and Ming is down to half her lifebar. And secondly you can get your firearms skill up at minimum three without spending an XP (book at Trip's place twice + freebee from Romero), so if you have 0 in firearms at that point... you're not taking the cheese.

[Anaximander]

Well, I'm surprised the Flamethrower isn't used - two loads of that and Ming is down to half her lifebar. And secondly you can get your firearms skill up at minimum three without spending an XP (book at Trip's place twice + freebee from Romero), so if you have 0 in firearms at that point... you're not taking the cheese.

In the video I had originally posted, the flamethrower was used, after Ming's health had been dropped by about 1/3 with the Spaz. The character in the video was a Malkavian using the "Ninja" history, which prevents Firearms from ever being raised above 0. Also, if those 3 free points in firearms were all you had for your ranged feat - and for my characters this is generally the case - it would not be nearly enough to control the recoil of the Spaz in full auto mode.

Due to some lower body nudity seen at the beginning and end of the video, I couldn't leave a link to it here. You can find it in the gallery section of tessmage.com.

[Celacena]

"lower body nudity" - after V V it must be front-bottom to even raise an eyebrow. bearing in mind the game is 18 rated, there should not be a problem, but I understand that the sensitive US hosts have some weird double-standards - gratuitous violence aplenty and massive porn industry, yet a stray nip leads to fines. crazy. :speech:
perhaps if the 'conservative' American right put its efforts into brokering peace, not war, they'd have some moral credibility when objecting to showing natures glory in the female form, but I just can't get my head round it all.
here we are, discussing arcane combat from a death-dealing vampire perspective and a bit of nudity requires obliqueness - strange.
no element of fetish to Goth culture at all, no siree!

[Jhereg]

"lower body nudity" - after V V it must be front-bottom to even raise an eyebrow. bearing in mind the game is 18 rated, there should not be a problem, but I understand that the sensitive US hosts have some weird double-standards - gratuitous violence aplenty and massive porn industry, yet a stray nip leads to fines. crazy. :speech:
perhaps if the 'conservative' American right put its efforts into brokering peace, not war, they'd have some moral credibility when objecting to showing natures glory in the female form, but I just can't get my head round it all.
here we are, discussing arcane combat from a death-dealing vampire perspective and a bit of nudity requires obliqueness - strange.
no element of fetish to Goth culture at all, no siree!

Actually, I don't think it's quite about that. I agree, in principle. In the game you get VV front and back with a french-cut thong that is borderline legal, but at the same time I'd bet that the skin for that malk was probably a trivially re-touched patch from VV. I mean, really. How long does it take to brush out 136 pixels? They had the software to do that back in the '80s.

That, however, I don't think is the problem. I think the more serious issue is the graphic display attached to this forum. The game is rated adult, granted, but any sufficiently sophisticated 6-year old can view this forum. I think that is what Buck et al are more concerned about. Not the content, as such. The wild-eyed, frothing, politically correct, 'a picture of a bum will turn my child into a serial killer' lunatic fringe.

Having said that, yeah. Those same six-year-olds can sit in front of a TV at 7:00 PM on any day of the week and watch people being blown to bits, as long as they can't see any 'naughty bits'. That, however, is not really a problem for this forum. That is more of a problem for society in general. This forum's intolerance for such things is a symptom of that particular brand of insanity - not a cause.

[fable]

If we can continue to treat this as a thread disguising gameplay, fine: it stays here. Otherwise, it moves to Speak Your Mind, for non-game-related issues.

[Celacena]

thong and a slip

an uncharacteristic typo from Fable there I reckon - us "disguising" gameplay? is that like when I flick to the online news when a co-worker comes into my office - when in fact I had been playing a silly game?

back to the subject at hand - I don't see how parents can control what youngsters are exposed to - films are more graphic than they used to be - both in language, sexual conduct and violence - words that would have shocked viewers 30 years ago barely raise an eyebrow - and feature in games. I'm amazed that there do not seem to be any 'forbidden' words on TV, even though I'm far from prudish. Games like V:TM are most definitely adult in theme - the game starts with a post-coital vampiric embrace and apart from being able to check whether female characters sport a brazilian, or whether the males dress to the left or the right, there is little unshown.

A few of the adult themes:

prostitution (all over + Romero)
porn (Sin Bin, Vesuvius, apartments, Gary, Imalia etc)
incest (Jeanette/Therese)
bondage (various daughter)
"schoolgirl" costumery (I was careful how I expressed that) -Jeanette & the Hunter
bestiality (Tawny)
cannibalism (Pisha)
mutilation (Mr Ox)
non-prescription drugs (all over)
alcohol abuse (various)
disease as a weapon (Brother Vick and friends)
gun fantasy (all over)
smoking (adverts)
masturbation (telephone callers to radio show)
snuff-films (Isaac/DMP)

- you name a taboo, V:TM has it. you even get spam offers of 'increased membership' in your email. for a game that some claim is asexual, due to blood-lust, it manages to cram in a lot of fetish. which is fine by me - even if some is distasteful.

a few pixels here or there hardly change the nature of the game.

[fable]

Feh. It was early.

As for the rest, when I was referring to a return of the main subject, I meant the one that led off this thread. Since it really no longer has anything to do with the topic, I'm going to relabel it, and move it to SYM. With a redirect, so you don't lose your way in the winding streets finding it. There's real potential, here, at least if we can beat off the innuendo artists with a large stick.

[Anaximander]

I just wanted to make pefectly clear the reason I removed the link to the video which I originall posted. The author of the video had re-skinned his Malkavian female character so that her pelvic region was completely exposed. Furthermore, he switched camera angles at the very beginning and end of the video so his character could be viewed from the front. Thus, there were brief glimpses of frontal female lower body nudity. Anatomically correct, at that.

I have absolutely no problem with this. However, the forum in which it was posted is essentially rated PG-13, so I went back and removed the link.

[Tricky]

I always liked how KOTOR was able to present one gay character (Juhani) without any kind of positive/negative discrimination, prejudice and bias. In the SW universe, no less. Best thing of all is that they didn't make a big deal out of it, which is exactly how it should be treated. Just a person with a crush on someone.

[fable]

Anaximander, the board policy on links to sites with nudity is uniform across all its forums, so I had to remove your link. This isn't a matter of personal preference on my part; quite the opposite. But as our site owner points out, we're on a US server which has already closed down some sites due to angry net nannies. It's better to avoid giving them ammunition.

Although there's a mental disconnect between the idea of a board decorously discussing a game that considers many taboo subjects. Fuel for dada, I suppose.

[Celacena]

of course, on the subject of taboos, blood features quite highly - there are sects within the Christian church which disagree with blood being used in any medicinal way and it has a sanctity in most religions. I put it down to the symbolism - blood is both the symbol of life and death - we come into the world bloody and many leave the world the same way. the primordial myth of the supernatural vampire must be an extension of that cyclical view of blood. drinking 'blood' or to Protestants wine as a symbol of blood is symbolic of rebirth - hence a vamp drinking it is indefinitely postponing death.

as sexual orgasm and and death are also linked - orgasm was, I believed known as "le petit mort" (the small death) in French - there is a strong symbolic interaction going on - conceived after the menstrual flow, born in blood, bleed when virginity is lost and have many "tiny deaths" (if you're lucky) before an actual one. blood contains the oxygen that gives us animation and the chemicals that govern our moods - drinking another's blood takes in their life. in the case of a vampire, there appears to be a choice - drain or not drain, embrace or not embrace - a direct power over life and death of the target. there would also be ying-yang concepts, but my understanding of oriental philosophy is probably not up to discussing how a vamp would fit in with chi and karma.

I'm not sure where that takes us, but it has moved the discussion on from lady-gardens.

[Jhereg]

Thanks for branching it, Fable. It greatly increases the scope of what I can talk about. Back to Celacena's point (No offense, Fable), but I see that this thread is headed down the path of cultural taboos and norms, and as Celacena has so astutely noted, VTMB walks proudly down a great many of those paths.

Darn near all of them, as near as I can tell. I went over Celacena's list. Short of necrophilia, I don't believe she missed much, but, inasfar as necrophilia goes, Romero can do the nasty with your putatively dead PC. I'm not actually certain if that qualifies - it's a bit around the bend.

To address Celacena's issues, I believe that oriental philosophy is quite tightly bound to the concept of vampirism, both inside and outside of the game's fundamental constraints. Inasmuch as Chi essentially identifies with 'llife-force', and hence with blood, and Kharma fundamentally identifies with fate in the prototypical sense that the cab-driver uses when he says, "The blood of Caine makes our fate". Just exactly how that shakes out in the world of buddhism in general, I"m not certain. There are a great many flavors out there.

I'm Ch'an Buddhist. So paradoxically, I should be, and do portray, a good vampire. If you encounter Evil, destroy it. My PC, however, is a vampire. An essentially evil being. One that feeds off the life-force of other beings. So, philosophically, I should destroy myself.

Yet, I would take that one step further. As a person in the real world, how do you stay alive? You eat things, yes? Are they rocks? No. Even if you are the most stringent vegan on the planet, you eat other living beings, be they so humble as cabbages and carrots, to stay alive, yes?

All creatures on the upside of scavengers are guilty of this. Bacteria, fungi, and the like feed off dead things, but still, they feed of dead things that were once alive. Only plants feed off the non-living (and that's arguable). They feed off water, soil, and sunlight. They are the purest form of life, in that they do not require death to live (which is also arguable).

We, however, do. Even in the real world. All of us feed off death. We are all vampires in essence, if not in function. This is the essential cycle of which Celacena speaks. I eat a carrot to stay alive. I kill the carrot to stay alive. In the fullness of time, I will die. When I have died, the elements of my body will go back to the earth. They will, in turn, become food for something else. Maybe another carrot.

I'm a part of them, as they are a part of me. The universe is entwined. The merest pebble is worthy of respect, because it, too, is alive. We are not adversaries in this relationship. We are partners. The carrots feed me, and I in my turn will feed them. We are all brothers.