Evaluate this Party (newbie in 3E rules)

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I'm getting slightly bored with BG2, therefore, I'm taking a break and re-visiting IWD2. The Problem is it's not based on the 2E rules which I know quite well. I'd just like to know whether this party will work while I'm still in Targos. I don't want any nasty surprises along the way.

1) Female Human Sorceress 10,14,10,12,12,18. will pump charisma along the way.

2) Pure class Male Human Barbarian, 18,10,18,10,10,10. pump CON or STR ?? Add in a "flavouring" class ??

3) fighter 1/ Druid XX Human Male. 10,18,10,10,18,10 role : Archer, summoner, support healer. (Pump Wisdom for better spell efficiency or DEX for bow use ??) Edit2 : level fighter to 4 for specialization ??

4) Rouge 2 / Wizard XX Human Female 10,10,14,18,12,12, Role: thief + arcane caster

5) Barbarian/Cleric of Tempus Male Dwarf. Levels will be kept equal 14,10,20,10,12,10 will pump wisdom but there's no hurry since he will be getting plenty of Barbarian along the way

6) Female human Ranger 16,12,14,10,14,10 - Support tank mostly for roleplaying reasons

I know rangers suck but I like to role play them and I had no better options for a 6th char. with 5 I have everything I need, but you know how exp is worked out in this game. With 5 I'd have to squat or take some level 2 char along both of which are tedious.

Feat wise I think I've got the hang of it. Best not to waste feats in things that give you bonus to saves, get things that power-up your attacks/magic
Combat casting for anyone who can take it ect ??

edit: key: Str,dex,con,int,wis,char in case it's different from a 2E char sheet.

edit again before I forget, What are the best weapon choices for each of these people ??

[Claudius]

Sorceror's are VERY effective (and fun to have that much ammo)

Barbarian is a killer with 2handed weapons especially. Sometimes they get charmed so its not a bad idea to have your own charm person spell as a sorceror pick (recharm him if he's charmed).

I like the Druid. They are pretty fun character. I guess the fighter level is for better armor and a feat. Might not be needed as they already have polearms and sword. He might not be able to wear all the heavy armor in the game but you can morph into animal form to melee or else there is some armor in the game that is pretty light for its protective value. The level of fighter adds something but you also lose spells.

Its nice to have a rogue your first run through the game just to try it. Rogue 2 Wiz X is a great choice as Rogue X is somewhat limited to backstab and run away or mediocre archery. You might even try giving your ranger some rogue levels and handle rogue things? Or no rogue really isn't a problem. Just have the barbarian open things and later druid transformed dire bear.

I think Barb level is cool with Tempus and gives some extra weapon options...but don't you want to just use axe and have more spells. Rage doesn't stack with other strength enhancements...

As mentioned before Ranger teams well with rogue levels. Yes ranger gets the shaft in IWD2 but thats ok you have a sorceror and a cleric and a mage. Once you learn how to use their spells you will thrash things.

You have tank, healer, bomber, scout, buffs, maybe sorceror is diplomat? Sounds good...

Claudius

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Yeah the Sorceror is my main Diplomat. After reading a few powergaming threads, it seems a good idea to make her aasimar and throw in 2 Paladin levels, but that's just too cheesy for me. It makes no roleplaying sense to make a Paladin/Sorceror hybrid

I don't really like rouge/thief types and would much rather have another arcane caster. (maybe a left over habit from BG2 overthere you can never have too much arcane power). The 2 Rouge levels are just for getting the thieving skills as "class" skills and I'll be pumping intelligence as high as she goes for that char, so I should be all set for disarming traps, opening locks ect.

On the Barb/Tempus note, what should I do then ?? I was planning for a 15/15 char, but from your post you seem to reccommend more cleric levels and less Barb levels. (maybe I'm making a 2E mistake ) would he still be able to tank well if I went 10/20 or even 5/25 ?? What woud be the optimal number of Barb levels ??

I am open to throwing in a few rouge levels to the Ranger, but to what end ??
how does the rouge compliment a Ranger. Furthermore if I take less Barbarian levels in the B/Tempus char I would have only one really good tank; the pure class barbarian. If I now go on to add rouge levels to the Ranger he would be a worse tank than he already is which is unacceptable. Or do these two classes compliment each other such that they become powerfull ??

1 more thing which stats are worth pumping ?? I may have to edit my B/tempus Dwarf if he goes on to be pretty much a pure class cleric. (only 12 in wisdom so far)

[Claudius]

on the cleric of tempus: that class can tank without ANY fighter levels. The only reason to add 4 fighter levels would be WS axe and WS something + Maximimum attacks. IMHO it would be crazy to take levels in other classes untill you get level 15 8th level spells. After that go wild as 9th level is a bust. You could add 15 barb levels after the 15 cleric but by that time your in heart of fury and melee is crap.

ranger mixes with rogue for a couple of reasons. they both have light armor..and in iwd2 backstab is only feasable for dual wield (you might get more than one backstab if they don't turn around). Also ranger levels give you a lot of skill points relative to fighter etc and search/HS/MS are favored skills (cost 1 point). So you can boost search and stealth at ranger level ups and boost disarm/open locks at rogue level ups. You will have the ranger abilities: less spells/favored enemies due to rogue levels, but you get more skills and you get sneak attack (similar to backstab).

But you don't need ANY rogue just run over traps with high HP char and have drink pots or run over with MI character (does that work in iwd???). Never tried it but many says its fine. High strength opens lock. There is no good pickpocket besides 1 minor item.

As far as stats your druid cleric sorceror mage all pump their casting stat as spells are the REAL power (except for ultimate ac 72 which you won't have) in iwd2...the barb pumps STR

the ranger or ranger rogue STARTS (not pump) with enough intelligence to get you the skills you want then figure out (with items) how much wisdom you need for spells...then 18 con....then hose charisma...then dex (some for early archery/pick out early armor at high levels your ac will be useless unless its above 52..rest into strength. If you want an ultimate ac char take DG or monk figure out what buffs you need (read JUPP guide)...but probably for beginning run through just pump str.

claudius

Edit: a clarification on the relationship between backstab and dual wield. It is simply better if you have 2 quickly delivered attacks that can register the Sneak ATTack damage. Otherwise I think a warrior (pure ranger, fighter, barb, paladin) with higher BAB and a 2 handed weapon deals out more damage.

[Crucis]

Jedi, a few comments...

1. Claudius is not, per se, saying that you should add rogue levels to your current ranger. His point is that in 3e, the ranger and rogue classes are pretty symbiotic in their stats and skills. That is, both are somewhat skills-based classes and have a number of skills that are common to both classes, Hide, Move Silently, and Search, to be specific.

If a player chooses to play a ranger/rogue, it is entirely possible with intelligent management of your skill points to just about maximize nearly all of the important rogue skills, even while taking plenty of ranger levels. The keys are to a) have a decent INT (say, about 14) and to focus on stealth skills when taking ranger levels and focus on the trap-ish skills when taking rogue levels.

Regarding your current ranger, given that you already have a rogue-ish character, you really do not need to give your ranger any rogue levels.

OTOH, your ranger is going to feel rather weak when it comes to his ranger skills. For the most part, rangers seem to be better suited to being more DEX based characters with low to medium STR. And there's not really much point to having such a high WIS for a ranger. Oh, you'll eventually be able to cast level 4 ranger spells, but with only a DEX of 12, you'll likely be wearing medium or heavy armor and stealth will be nearly impossible.

To be honest, the stats of your ranger would have been better for your cleric.


2. Regarding your cleric of Tempus, you should have probably started with more points in WIS for starters. Because you also have a druid in your group, you may be able to get away with an overly low WIS in this cleric. As far as barb levels, most people tend to think that pure clerics are best, since a) until a cleric reaches level 20, any other classes only serve to inhibit the best possible clerical spellcasting and b) clerics, Tempus in particular, with the right stats, are pretty darned solid warriors without any multiclassing.

3. Regarding your Barbarian, those stats look more like fighter stats than barb stats. The key is the DEX stat. With a DEX of only 10, you're most likely to be wanting to wear heavy plate armor, which will negate your barbarian's speed.

4. General comments about stats. I understand and endorse your desire to be more of a roleplayer than powergamer. Bravo. But you need to manage your stats a little more creatively to get a bit more out of your builds.

Here's some suggestions for a different way to use your stats to get more out of your intended class mixes. Don't take these as the end all and be all. Just some slight tweaking to show what could be done.

Human Barb: 18, 14, 18, 8, 10, 8

Druid (suggest elf or wild elf for the stat bonuses and profs): 10, 20, 14, 8, 18, 6

Rogue/Wizzy: 10,16,14,18,10,8
Not having more points in DEX will really hurt your ability with DEX based rogue skills. And you really have no need for this character to have a good CHA.

Cleric of Tempus: 16,10,16,8,18,8
A cleric simply doesn't need to max out his CON at the expense of WIS.

Ranger: 16,14,14,12,12,8 (for wearing chain and being more of a tank) or 14,18,14,10,12,8 (for wearing leather/studded and being more of an archer, but not incapable of decent tanking)

I'm a fan of rangers myself and always have a strong urge to include one with any new party I create. My experience is that my most effective rangers are max DEX builds, designed to be stealthy, leather-wearing archers first, but backup tanks at need. Sticking a ranger in heavy armor pretty much negates all of their stealth skills which is really what seperates them from the other "warrior" classes and sort of turns them into neutered fighters.



Good luck with your party.

[Claudius]

Good ideas from Crucis he was more vigilante about stats. I just mainly looked at the classes. I agreed with what he said though upon looking.

And I'll just throw out the idea of a fun rogue character I made. He was a dwarf and took 4 fighter levels for some combat ability and WS. The rest he took were in Wizard and Rogue even spread. He was a swiss army knife had some combat punch and minor wizard action 1: magic missile 2: mirrior image death armor 3: some buffs with decent duration for low level 4: damage shields

By the end what he would do in combat is backstab an 'unaware' each round. After a few rounds he had a crew chasing him. Then he casts MI followed by damage shields MI damage shield MI death armor MI MI MI MI MI MI depending on how many are following (all wounded from a backstab) he casts more or less of those spells. They are wounded so they beat themselves to death on damage shields and take out MI

claudius

i think i misspelled vigilant I mean the normal watchful not extreme fighter of evil sense of the word haha

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Hmm where to start

Code: Select all

To be honest, the stats of your ranger would have been better for your cleric.  

- no worries, these kind of comment make me remake mid targos instead of mid game as I said I'm a bit n00b with 3E so many things are different.

1) Yes your right about the Cleric. If a pure Cleric of Tempus can tank well than he needs more than 12 wisdom I'll up it to 16 at least. At this early stage of the game I have no problems using shadow keeper. (The 1 barb level should stay IMO for the rage and faster movement)

2)I can live with 1 or 2 people in my team being ugly and stupid, but not all 6 I guess I can lower the Dwarven clerics charisma to 8 and the rangers int to 6 as well Minsc anyone ??

3) I was going to make my Ranger a Drizzt type char, even though she's female . I never really enjoyed backstabbing in BG II, but is sneak attack different ?? will I get the critical hit while faceing an enemy, or do I have to stand behind him ?? if it's the latter, thats just not my cup of tea.

4) I'm curious why you reccommend high dex chars. According to what I've read unless you have astronomicly high AC values it's pretty much useless. Edit: what I'm trying to say is, if you go 18 and pump to 24 base it has a noticable effect but going from 10 to 14 and keeping it there ??

5) I originally went with a human druid to add 1 monk level, and not get the exp. penalty but such a rediculous combo just to get a few extra AC are poor taste to me. but who know seems like I need more fire power.

6) will a pure Ranger be an OK class if I use leather armour and dual scimitars ?? what stats should she have. The 1 problem I have with finesse is that I have to use short swords

[Aerich]

Just a quick note on the barb/cleric. If you take a Barb[1]/Cleric[x] with a dwarf, you will also take an XP penalty. A Fighter[1]/Cleric is better with a dwarf because of the favoured class. If you really want the Barb speed, take Dash with the extra feat. 1 Rage and speed isn't worth an XP penalty. Besides, a Battleguard of Tempus has tons of options to increase its Str. However, a dwarven Battleguard doesn't really need a warrior class mix-in to be an effective tank.

I like to nerf a Sorc's Str a bit to get a few more stat points. If you take it down to 6, you can up any of Dex, Con or Int.

Rogue/Wiz - a rogue with 10 Dex is asking for trouble. Unless you keep the levels fairly even, it'll have trouble putting enough skill points to thieving skills to offset the meagre Dex. I certainly wouldn't advocate having equal rogue and wizard levels, as casting is by far this character's best contribution to the party.

A sneak attack just needs to be somewhat from the side, on an enemy that is not targeting the sneak attacker. Strangely enough, in IWD2 you can sneak attack with any weapon type. Sneak attack gives bonus damage based on the level of the rogue, and doesn't give a straight damage multiplier like 2nd ed.

A key point of armor in IWD2 is, generally speaking, that heavier (read: better) armors have a "max Dex bonus" that puts a cap on how much a character's Dex can improve its AC while wearing that armor. A high Dex character can be effective because a magical set of leathers may give +3 to AC but still "allow" the character's +5-to-AC Dex modifier, for a total of 18 - which is better than a 10 Dex character wearing splint mail.

A druid will provide plenty of firepower. I'd focus on casting, since the ranger can provide the ranged support.

A pure ranger is ok. Pump Dex, have med-high Str and Con, rest into Wis. Unless human, don't nerf Int too much because you'll probably want some skill points for skulking. For stats, you could use 14, 18, 14, 10, 12, 8. If you were a powergamer, I'd suggest more unbalanced stats. (E.g., for a drow ranger, 18, 20, 14, 10, 13, 5, and for a human, 18, 18, 18, 3, 16, 3) You can do fine wielding dual scimitars, but this character may be more effective with a bow and Rapid Shot. Note that scimitars count as "heavy" weapons for the purposes of use as an off-hand weapon. With the Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting feats (automatically known by a ranger if wearing light armor) and a light off-hand weapon, the attack roll penalties are -2/-2. With a scimitar in the off-hand and the feats, the penalties are -4/-4.

For best weapon choices:
Sorc: crossbow. Stay out of melee combat.
Rogue/Wiz: bow/crossbow, small blades (with high Dex, Weapon Finesse and Expertise, if planning to melee)
Battleguard: Axe, axe, axe. Battleaxe and shield if really hit hard by multiple enemies, greataxe most of the time. Secondary weapon should be bludgeoning - mace by preference.
Barbarian: Greatsword, since Battleguard has Axe. Bludgeoning weapon for secondary.
Druid: Sling or bow, large sword or spear, shapechange - should probably stay out of melee for the most part. Good offensively in melee, often vulnerable defensively.
Ranger: bow, swords (any), bludgeoning secondary

[kmonster]

IWD2 is a mix of roleplaying/adventuring and strategy. With a powergaming party battles will be easier and and you'll get a better roleplaying feeling because less reloads and battle strategies are required, with a weak party you get a more combat-oriented game which requires more pausing and tactics in battles. It's your decision what playing style you prefer.

There are two overpowered classes in IWD2, sorcerers and clerics. As long as you have both of them pure the game should be quite easy.
But your party as you planned it is also strong enough.

Getting as powerful spells as early as possible is the key to a game without many reloads. Multiclassing your casters doesn't make your party stronger, it makes it weaker.
You should know that your average character level at the end of the game will be lower than 17, not 30. So if you want to try out high level spells, don't slow your casters' levelling.
And btw: AC is only useless in HoF mode, in normal mode it's important.


Now to your party:

1) Wisdom is useless for your sorc, I'd rather increase dex or con. Unlike Aerich I wouldn't reduce strength to 6, low carrying capacity is painful.
Don't waste feats for weapons, use a crossbow and whatever you want in melee.

2) 13 dex is a prerequisite for many useful combat feats while int and cha are useless. If you don't want to reduce int or wis or cha for it then reduce con.
Weapon: Greatswords and throwing weapons. But since weapon focus doesn't help much your barbarian can take whatever he finds.

3) When adding just one warrior level barbarian seems to be the better choice.But I'd keep the druid pure for the spells. Spending the human bonus feat for bows or axes or taking an elf yields the better character. I'd just use sling or darts. The druid can tank quite well in arctic boar or bear form.

4) Wis and cha are wasted. Dex would help far more. You can take a transmuter for getting more spells since this is onlöy your secondary mage.

5) A pure battleguard will make your game far easier. You need 18 wis at the end in order to cast level 8 spells. 13 dex will help a lot because of rapid shot.

6) Take at least 13 dex. Rangers are only slightly worse than the other warrior classes, the gap between fighter and cleric is much bigger. Take whatever weapon you find, 2-handers do most damage.

About Feats:

Take rapid shot for everyone but the arcane casters. Crossbows are nice at the beginning but become less useful since even a level 16 fighter doesn't get more than 1 attack per round with them.
Weapon focus doesn't help much, it only gives +1 AB with only one weapon type.
If concentration is high enough combat casting gets useless. Extra rage is also useless.
If you want your party to move faster take "dash" for everyone but your barbarian.

Sorc/wiz: greater spell focusses and elemental feats
Druid: GSF transmutation, scion of storms, the rest depends on your playing style.

[Crucis]

Hmm where to start

Code: Select all

To be honest, the stats of your ranger would have been better for your cleric.  

- no worries, these kind of comment make me remake mid targos instead of mid game as I said I'm a bit n00b with 3E so many things are different.

1) Yes your right about the Cleric. If a pure Cleric of Tempus can tank well than he needs more than 12 wisdom I'll up it to 16 at least. At this early stage of the game I have no problems using shadow keeper. (The 1 barb level should stay IMO for the rage and faster movement)

One major key not mentioned by the others, at least directly, is that the maximum spell level that a spellcaster can cast is equal to your primary casting stat -10. In the cast of clerics, that stat is WIS, so your original battleguard's spells would be topped out at level 2 spells without any WIS enhancement.

Unless there's some specific reason otherwise, nearly all people will max out the primary spellcasting stat of any sorc, wizzy, cleric, or druid.


Regarding the one level of barbarian for your battleguard... You're going to find that keeping it will be a painful decision. It will a) be one additional level of spellcasting lost and b) because he's a dwarf with a favored class of Fighter, you will take an XP penalty of 20% on this character whenever your 2 classes are more than 1 level apart. Believe me, the minor benefit of rage and extra speed will be more than offset by the losses. Furthermore, you probably won't even get the benefit of the extra speed because barbarians lose their extra speed when they wear heavy armor, which you'll be needing since your cleric has a DEX of only 10.

2)I can live with 1 or 2 people in my team being ugly and stupid, but not all 6 I guess I can lower the Dwarven clerics charisma to 8 and the rangers int to 6 as well Minsc anyone ??

This is not 2e. You do NOT want to lower the INT of a ranger. Rangers live by their skills. Oh, there are some powergamer types to have little use for skills, except for mages. But for those of us who prefer a more balanced roleplaying-ish approach, skills are a must.

I understand the general desire to not have your team be "ugly and stupid", but to be fair CHA is one stat that for many classes has little or no value. And the thing is, CHA is just about the safest place to get a couple of extra stat points without having any real detrimental effect on the character's overall performance. And also consider, CHA ... Charisma is not merely about looks. It's also about personality. It's entirely possible for a character to be acceptably good-looking, but have a personality that just plain turns off people. That would also describe a sub-10 CHA. Indeed, I tend to look at CHA as more relating to personality than to mere looks.

3) I was going to make my Ranger a Drizzt type char, even though she's female . I never really enjoyed backstabbing in BG II, but is sneak attack different ?? will I get the critical hit while faceing an enemy, or do I have to stand behind him ?? if it's the latter, thats just not my cup of tea.

Only rogues get any sneak attacking in 3e. And your wizard X/Rogue 2 will not be worth bothering to use in sneak attacks. IIRC, you get 1d6 of sneak attack damage for every 2 levels of rogue. So if you were wanting to build a powerful sneak attacker, you'd need to have the rogue be pretty pure. A Wizzy x/rogue 2 is more a sneaky Wizard who took a couple of night classes in rogue skills.

4) I'm curious why you reccommend high dex chars. According to what I've read unless you have astronomicly high AC values it's pretty much useless. Edit: what I'm trying to say is, if you go 18 and pump to 24 base it has a noticable effect but going from 10 to 14 and keeping it there ??

There are a number of reasons.

1. There are a number of skills that are DEX based. Also, those skills are affected by the armor you wear, i.e. the Armor Check penalty (ACP). So, if you're wanting to have a really sneaky, stealthy ranger, you'll want him to have a max'ed out DEX and wearing leather or studded leather armor, so that the armor's ACP is minimized and your skill in Hide and Move Silently is maximized.

2. There are a number of Feats that have a prerequisite of DEX 13+. Feats such as Dodge, Rapid Shot, Dirty Fighting, Deflect Arrows. Ambidexterity requires a DEX of 15+. Now, I'm not saying that you'll want all of these feats, but you might want Dodge or Rapid Shot.

3. The quality and effectivity of armor in 3e is not merely dependent on the raw amount of AC that it adds to your character. It's also about how flexible that armor is and how much it will let you use your character's DEX to increase your overall AC.

That is, a low DEX fighter wearing plate will be somewhat slow and not very nimble. This is why heavy armors, such as half-plate and full plate have Max DEX Bonuses (MDB) of 0 or +1, and why characters who intend on wearing heavy armor almost always have DEX's of only 10 or 12 to match.

OTOH, characters who depend on great nimbleness to be effective, whether in their skills or in ranged combat, will want to wear armors that do not constrict their bodies and limit their nimbleness. They'll be wanting to wear light, leather or studded leather armors, which have high MDB's and 0 or -1 ACP's that will not hurt their DEX based skills.

The overall quality of an armor is the combination of AC Bonus and Max DEX bonus. But Max DEX Bonus doesn't give you that value as a bonus to AC. It only allows you to add that much of your own DEX's bonus to your AC.

6) will a pure Ranger be an OK class if I use leather armour and dual scimitars ?? what stats should she have. The 1 problem I have with finesse is that I have to use short swords

A high DEX pure ranger would have a medium STR and CON, a max DEX, a 10 or 12 INT, maybe 12 WIS, and a lowish CHA.

You should really think about what you said about dualing scimitars vs short swords. Both are 1d6 weapons. The only 2 differences are that scimitars do 3x damage on critical hits vs. 2x for short swords, and scimiatars are not light weapons, whereas Short swords are.

I wouldn't dual wield with anything but a shortsword or dagger in the offhand until late in the game when you have so much AB (Thac0 in 2e) that you can afford to take the penalty for a non-light weapon in the offhand.

If you want to have a more potent weapon in your main hand, I'd go with something more potent than a scimitar, maybe a longsword or a battleaxe.

Something else to consider is that dual wielding is not nearly as potent in IWD2 as it is in BG2. There are only 2 real benefits from dual wielding in IWD2.

1. +1 attack.
2. The benefit of whatever "while equipped" special abilities you might get from an extra weapon in hand.

Let me explain #2. "While equipped" specials are those abilities are are always active so long as the item is equipped. And these abilities are things like stat bonuses, HP, AC, or AB bonuses. OTOH, a special ability that must be cast like a spell (or is a spell) does you no good until you cast it and even after you've cast it, you could then just remove the item.

Or the special ability might only matter when that weapon strikes the enemy. But if that "only on a hit" special matters on hits, then you may really want it in your main hand, since off hand weapons only get 1 attack per round. And that's not going to get all that much value from that "only on a hit" special.

"While equipped" abilities are just that ... only active while you have it equipped.

And the "nice thing" about some weapons with nice "while equipped" specials is that while the weapon inself may not be all that awesome, if you're wielding it in your offhand, you're only using it for 1 attack per round anyways. But you are getting the nice "while equipped" abilities 100% of the time.




"will a pure Ranger be an OK class if I use leather armour and dual scimitars ??"

I think that you need to determine what sort of balance you foresee for this ranger between melee combat and ranged combat. If you see her as more of a melee character, then you'd probably be better served with a 14 DEX and chain mail and putting more points into STR. With that combo, stealth is still possible, although more difficult. And you'll be better suited for melee.

OTOH, if you're intending to be more of an archer who only enters melee in critical situations, the max DEX, leather armor combo is the better build.

[Crucis]

IWD2 is a mix of roleplaying/adventuring and strategy. With a powergaming party battles will be easier and and you'll get a better roleplaying feeling because less reloads and battle strategies are required, with a weak party you get a more combat-oriented game which requires more pausing and tactics in battles. It's your decision what playing style you prefer.

Oh, puh-leeeze. Powergaming parties give you a better roleplaying feel? In what universe?

Take rapid shot for everyone but the arcane casters.

Uhhh, not unless you are going to give 13+ DEX to everyone but the arcane casters, since that's the prereq for Rapid Shot.

Crossbows are nice at the beginning but become less useful since even a level 16 fighter doesn't get more than 1 attack per round with them.

I've never really minded having my mages use crossbows throughout the game, at least in Normal mode, since their BAB's are rather low and the strong to hit bonuses from Xbows tend to offset the 1 atk/round in my mind for mages. Yes, I suppose that one could make a mathematical analysis that shows that multiple shots per round from a bow or sling with a lower AB is better than 1 good attack per round with a good AB. But I don't worry overmuch about that when it comes to mages and ranged attacks. For the most part, a mage's primary job is casting spells. Anything that they do with ranged combat in rounds where they're not casting spells is a bonus, so I simply don't worry about having extra attack from them.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

@ Kmonster: hey a familiar face from the BGII forum nice seeing you here Anyway I do agree with you saying that with a weak party I'll reload like crazy, and it will detract from the role playing expierience. I just don't want everybody on my team BUT my diplomat running around with CHA and INT 3

How are Druids best used?? I only need 1 archer and it's going to be either the Ranger or the Druid. From previous posts some people are reccommending that my Ranger should be an archer, fair enough but then what would I do with the Druid ?? Seems the Ranger is best suited as a scout for stealthy attacks with maybe 2 rouge levels thrown in for 2D6 extra dmg. from what I've read sneak attack is alot less tedious than in BGII

What do you guys think of Aasimars ?? I know all about ECL, but it seems that if my party is at a lower level then it will get more expierience per encouter. Will this offset a minor ECL penalty ?? those guys get 4 extra stats seems to be just what the doctor ordered. I miss 2E where I could just roll 85-90 stat chars for the perfect role playing reason that the main pc was a child of Bhaal

[Crucis]

@ Kmonster: hey a familiar face from the BGII forum nice seeing you here Anyway I do agree with you saying that with a weak party I'll reload like crazy, and it will detract from the role playing expierience. I just don't want everybody on my team BUT my diplomat running around with CHA and INT 3

Good for you!

How are Druids best used?? I only need 1 archer and it's going to be either the Ranger or the Druid. From previous posts some people are reccommending that my Ranger should be an archer, fair enough but then what would I do with the Druid ?? Seems the Ranger is best suited as a scout for stealthy attacks with maybe 2 rouge levels thrown in for 2D6 extra dmg. from what I've read sneak attack is alot less tedious than in BGII

1. Sneak attack is a LOT easier to use in 3e. All you really need to do is get behind most enemies. There are some that are immune to sneak attacks, like barbarians. If you want to get 2d6 of extra SA damage, you'll need 3 levels of rogue, IIRC, since you get 1d6 at level 1, then +1d6 every 2nd level thereafter (i.e. +1d6 at L3, L5, L7, etc.). If this is what floats your boat, go for it, but I'm not sure if it's really worth the trouble. Your call.

2. With the stats you mentioned for your druid (i.e. max DEX and max WIS), about all he'll be doing is archery and spellcasting, and maybe some shapeshifting. I'm no real expert on the "proper" use of a druid in IWD2.

3. There's no reason why a high DEX, mid STR leather wearing ranger can't mix it up in melee, although I've always tended to use such ranger builds as backup tanks in my parties. "Tanks" that would only whip out their swords when the party was being mobbed by enemies and I needed more warm bodies to protect my mage. And most of the time, such a ranger was able to get the job done very well.

But can a high DEX leather wearing ranger be a full-time melee tank? Not sure, cuz I've never tried.

The biggest reason that rangers seem to make good archers is that if you build a mid STR, high DEX, leather-wearing ranger for maximum stealth, you also end up with a high missile AB, which ends up making them a natural for archery, whereas your normal lowish DEX, plate wearing fighter will be better suited to blood and guts melee, since his missile AB will be low, but his melee AB will be much higher due to his high STR bonus.

What do you guys think of Aasimars ?? I know all about ECL, but it seems that if my party is at a lower level then it will get more expierience per encouter. Will this offset a minor ECL penalty ?? those guys get 4 extra stats seems to be just what the doctor ordered. I miss 2E where I could just roll 85-90 stat chars for the perfect role playing reason that the main pc was a child of Bhaal

Aasimars and most other ECL races are perfectly fine. There are a small number of things of which you should be aware when thinking about an ECL races. First of all, what is their Favored Class, if you're thinking about multiclassing. It's best if you can select a race that has one of the classes you want to include in your multiclass combo. Secondly, what class are you thinking about in the first place? Some races, ECL or otherwise, are better suited to some classes over others, due to the stat bonuses and penalties of that race. For example, Tieflings get +2 to DEX and INT and -2 to CHA. So, rogue and wizard are two classes that are a natural for tieflings, but sorcerors or bards, to a lesser degree, are not such good fits for tieflings. OTOH, Aasimar is a great race for a sorceror or a paladin, due to the +2 CHA bonus.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

Does sneak attack work for bows if the enemy is disabled (stunned or asleep)
Also would it work for my first shot if I'm invisible regardless of my position relative to the enemy??

the thing I hated about BGII's backstab was that you had to be, roughly, within a very narrow 60 degree "cone" directly behind an enemy to get your backstab.

I'm thinking it makes good roleplaying sense that a Ranger devotes part of his time towards better stealth abilities, so in the long run I'll probably add 5 rouge levels (3D6) to a human ranger 12,18,16,12,10,8 and pump dex of course. If sneak attack works with bows I'll have two archers, if not he'll have finesse and dual wield daggers or maybe short swords, though daggers sound cool.

I hope the Cleric of Tempus and Barbarian will be able to hold the front line on their own stats will be as follows 16,14,16,10,16,6 - he's a dwarf after all

The Barbarian will be Aasimar 18,16,18,8,10,10

I'm all set with the Sorcereress and rouge/wizard and druid based on previous posts

[Crucis]

Sorry. No sneak attacks with ranged weapons in IWD2. That said, don't be afraid to try to have your ranger capable in both bows and melee weapons. It's always good to have nearly all of your characters capable in many different types of weapons. And you'll find that there are times when you'll be a bit leery about sending your ranger/rogue behind enemy lines on a sneak attacking mission.


As far as the process of sneak attacking, it's much easier than in 2e. You don't even need to be invisible or under stealth. As long as you have the enemies' backs are generally facing you, you should have pretty good success with sneak attacks. I don't recall if an attack from invisibility is a sneak attack, regardless of what part of the enemy you're facing.

[kmonster]

@Jedi_Sauraus

1) Stat points don't matter that much, just a few HP, AC or AB more or less. It only gets hard if you do 2e multiclassing and therefore only have level 7 casters with level 1-4 spells when you're supposed to be able to cast powerful level 1-8 spells with level 15 casters.
I had one combat-caused reload in the whole game with my powergaming party, so a little more challenge won't kill you.


2) Everyone should be able to use ranged attacks when needed, it adds a lot of flexibility and power if you don't have to run after your enemies in order to fight them. Switching to melee weapon is no problem in IWD2.

My druid was a little weak ranged at the beginning since she used only a sling while the others used bow or crossbow, but slings get better during the game.
She was the best 1:1 combatant and therefore won the solo fights for my party.(There are situations where only 1 party member can be chosen to face the challenge.)
Her polar bear form buffed by the party and loaded with static charges was really frightening.
"Call lightning" and "static charge" were my favourite druid spells, they are cumulative with each other and themselves and can therefore do a lot of damage, especially if you have the "scion of storms" and "GSF transmutation" feats. The spell charges are lost if you save and reload, so using those spells might even speed up your game.
The boar and bear forms are very powerful in melee, you get a full extra attack per round and superior physical stats.

Skills: concentration, 10 spellcraft for being able to take the elemental feats. The rest doesn't matter much. Wilderness lore is nice for roleplaying, but you can just retry if you get a failed attempt.

Most important feats: rapid shot, GSF transmutation, scion of storms

Some of the other useful druid feats are spirit of flame (the other elemental feats aren't bad either), GSF evocation, improved critical, dodge, GSF necromancy (only for the level 8 spell finger of death).



3) The rounded down average party level decides how many XP you get for combat. Therefore a party consisting of one Aasimar and 5 humans will level even faster than a party of 6 humans. (unless you level-squat)
At the end of the game 6 non-ecl characters will all be level 16 but 5 non-ecl members will be level 17 when the 6th is an ECL-character (like a level 16 aasimar).
So taking an aasimar or tiefling is a good idea.


4) About your ranger: No matter what your strength is, you'll always do more damage with a good 2-hander than dualwielding (still doable if you have roleplaying reasons).
You don't need int, one skillpoint per level is enough for stealth, even a 13 dex deep gnome druid who didn't spend any points in stealth could do this quite well.
Mixing with rogue has both advantadges and disadvantadges. For the 1st,5th,9th and 13th rogue level you don't get a BAB, so you won't get the 4th attack per round at level 17 at the end of the game if you take more than 4 rogue levels.
For sneak attacks during combat you need a long range weapon, enemies will turn around if you get into dagger range.
I wouldn't pump up dex, more than 22 is useless if you want to wear armor and cat's grace adds up to +5 for hours. Strength grants more damage.
Start with rogue for the extra skillpoints. If you take rogue levels for your ranger there's no need to slow your wizard's progression.
Because of the wizard's superior int search and disarm can be taken as cross-class skills for him if neccessary (but your rogue/ranger should get enough skill points). You might not find wizard scrolls fast enough during the middle of the game, but you'll be able to cast level 9 spells at the end and the level-dependend spell effects are better.


@crucis:
1) It worked for me (and probably many others) in this universe.
2) Therefore I recommended taking at least 13 dex for each of them.
3) I recommended crossbow for the sorc.

[Ulfgar Prigor]

What do you guys think of Aasimars ?? I know all about ECL, but it seems that if my party is at a lower level then it will get more expierience per encouter. Will this offset a minor ECL penalty ?? those guys get 4 extra stats seems to be just what the doctor ordered. I miss 2E where I could just roll 85-90 stat chars for the perfect role playing reason that the main pc was a child of Bhaal

If you want a character with a combined 85-90 ability points, just use DaleKeeper2 to edit the ability scores.

I like aasimars. I've had one in every party I've run in this game. The ability score bonuses and elemental resistances are nice. The ECL penalty is no big deal. In fact, you want at least one PC from a race with an ECL penalty. That will lower your party's average character level by one and thus improve the experience point awards you will receive for killing enemies.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I've been playing a bit and I don't really like the ECL classes, my drow wizard/rouge was only on level 2 when everybody else was at 4. It's annoying to go such long distances without level ups.

Good point about having 1 char having an ECL level to lower average party level. I think I'll have an Aasimar Ranger, since he's only a support char so I don't care how fast he levels. Too bad this game is not Based on 2E rules, feats are just not as good as specialized kits. A BGII Archer kit is alot more powerfull and specialized than any possible pseudo-Archer built from scratch on feats.

Anyway, I just got out of Targos and am in Shaengarn ford where this annoying orc keeps popping up saying I'd better leave cause he'll kill me ect, after which he runs away like a whipped dog and leaves some minor enemies behind.

Up till now I've found the game enjoyable, but I'm going to switch my Aasimaar sorc to a human. As a human I'd need only 12 INT and not 14 to get diplomacy, spellcraft, and and combat casting- really awesome skill they can hit me but I still cast . The diffrence in stats is only 2, after taking that into account.

Any general thoughts on only 1 ECL char ?? In the Long run, (HoF mode) do ECL chars normally level up all the way to 30 ?? if they do would those couple of stat points make a difference ?? If they don't level to 30 then it's a comparison of 28 vs 30 or 26 vs 28 ect with the higher chars having slightly lower stats.

[Crucis]

Jedi, Aasimar Sorcerors are actually quite powerful, if you push their CHA to the max of 20. You get an extra spell, you will have a slightly higher DC on some of your spells (a technical thing I don't completely understand), etc. As you've noted, a human will need an INT 2 less than other races to get the same number of skill points.

Your wizzy/rogue was probably not the best choice for a -2 ECL drow. While I've never played a drow, I can see that they would be a quite potent choice for certain classes.

If you choose to play an Aasimar Ranger, remember that the aasimar favored class if paladin, so any multiclassing would probably incur the 20% penalty.



As far as reaching level 30, a fairly normal party of 6 characters with minimal ECL characters will only reach about level 16 or 17 by the end of normal mode. And if you continue on into HOF mode with that same party, you'll likely only reach about level 26 by the end of HOF. To get higher probably requires a smaller party, some level-squatting (i.e. delaying your level ups, thus making the game think that your party level is much lower than it may really be), more ECL party members, and/or other tactics.

A -1 ECL race isn't really all that big a deal when it comes to the character's capabilities. I'm not sure that I'd want to play a (-2 ECL) drow sorceror, but a drow warrior of some sort might be a very potent. When your character cannot cast spells or is one of the lesser casting classes (i.e. ranger or paladin), the lost levels aren't that big a deal, and the extra stats can be more beneficial. Something else to consider is that some of these -2 and -3 ECL races have special abilities beyond mere stat bonuses that make them more powerful. For example, drow have have a Spell Resistance or 11 + character level. This can actually be a very potent thing to have, particularly in a tank. Also, the +2 to Will saves and +2 to enchantment spells is a nice thing too. That said, I can easily see where these benefits don't quite cut it when you are trying to build a multiclassed wizard/rogue. It seems to be a case of trying to spread things too thinly.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

good point about the extra spells for CHA 20. The way I see DC for spells is that well you lose 1 for -2 CHA but you gain one for the extra level so they balance out. Isn't the DC formula (spell base DC + caster level + caster casting stat modifier ie WIS,INT, or CHA) vs (enemy level + wis modifier + D20 roll) ?? and the extra level would mean you have the extra spells with it

I think I'll change the Drow to a regular Elf for the 20 DEX. tiefling is out due to roleplaying reasons (I don't want a half demon on my team). I might make the ranger a drow I want 1 drow on my team and I'm not sure which char to make it.
Barbarian would be nice but he need the levels, a ranger needs charm animals and sneaky skills.