Did anyone read and is anyone

[kyle]

a little less than impressed with concepts mentioned for the Black Hound Module in that Josh Sawyer interview? I mean, you can't judge something until it comes out, and it might be great, but I get kind of turned off of the project when I hear things like: a level 8 cap, no Warlocks, shortened spell list, and the like. Sounds too linear, and I think if people want to take their super-powered level 20 characters into a game, so what? Let them. Shouldn't a good RPG give people as many choices as they want? Feels like designers nowadays feel it's their job to tell the player a story (or two stories - one for good, one for evil, with occasional dialogue choices that really don't matter outside of alignment changes), rather than let the player create their own story.
I think designers need to back-off on NPC depth/backgrounds, allow a lot more randomness in what happens in a game (Crusaders of the Dark Savant felt like more of a living world than newer RPGs do, and it came out almost ten years ago), and if your character can see something, they should be able to walk to it (ie. Baldur's Gate style, rather than the 'you can't walk over there because we don't want you to' KOTOR style).
I'll let the final product convince me and I do look forward to checking it out, just wondering how many people out there were feeling the same way.

[FilmBoy88]

Kyle,

I agree with you whole-heartedly, there does seem too much emphasis on story-telling or adding a "good"/"evil" side to every new RPG story with the plot forcing you to conform strictly to one side or the other. It's enfuriating at times, even now i find that the original Baldur's Gate, not even BGII or any of the Icewind Dale series, allows you more freedom, and more enjoyment than any of it's successors or the NWN series...

One of the reasons BG1 was so much fun was that all areas you explored were explored when you wanted to explore them, you weren't linearly forced into them, in fact, the only times you felt compelled to go to a specific area was when a quest dictated that area was needed as a solution... I spent many hours just wandering around the map, and re-visiting areas i had done so a thousand times... I wasn't forcefully moved on as in BGII, Icewind Dale 1/2, NWN, and certainly NWN2...

Even Planescape Torment, a heavily story-driven game seemed to have more freedom than modern RPGs simply because it allowed you to explore... What you saw, and what you felt like exploring, it alllowed you to do so until you moved on at your own pace...

One of my great criticisms of NWN2 is the cut-scenes sprung upon me throughout the game... They're irritating, too easily skipped, and i just feel like the whole RPG genre is being dumbed-down to make it more simplistic or cool... The removal of World Map Locals, and the feeling that i am just forced on to the next narrative path throughout, there doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much freedom as NWN had, and even that felt limited compared to the original BG...

Sometimes i just have to dive into Knight-Online the "free" MMORPG, which although in itself can be repetitive and linear at least offers more freedom than most modern RPGs and being an MMORPG i can at least form friendships with real people and create our own narratives from that at our own pace...

What does everyone else think?

[Cyrinn]

I agree as well. They are obviously limiting classes, spells, etc. to fit their story for the mod, and the more you do this, the more a game becomes an action game rather than a true RPG.

Just like M&M Dark Messiah, it is an action game with, I suppose, "rpg" elements but they marketed it as an action game which is correct. As said, you take away the multitude of choices for character build and it becomes a linear action game falsely marketed as an rpg.

I am partial to the BG and Morrowind styles where most of the map is explorable at your own pace and has nothing to do with the storyline. I will admit, however, that I like linear games as well, but for different reasons. If I am limited on gaming time, it feels more fulfilling to play a linear game for an hour than a non-linear game just because you can 'get more done' in the amount of time played.

Again, as mentioned, the "real" rpg's of yesteryear are a dying (dead?) breed these days.

[Siberys]

I disagree, options are nice, but if you do a story well, you don't really need to have uber powerful 20th level characters. Example, Temple of Elemental Evil the video game. It was brilliantly done with the 3.5 DND rules, followed the story quite well and didn't add too much fluff to it. It only allowed you to go to 10th level, and that was enough for this game.

[kyle]

But I think that's exactly the point, Siberys; you said 'If a story is done right...' I don't want a story 'done right' unless I'm watching a movie or reading a book. What I want and I think what the other posters here have said as well is that we want to create our own stories - Darklands, Crusaders of the Dark Savant, Fallout... we got to create our own stories in those games. If game designers have come up with a story that is so brilliant, with seemingly endless lines of dialogue they think is just fantastic - SELL IT TO HOLLYWOOD.
Also, I enjoyed TOEE - but the story? The story was paper-thin, and that's fine by me. It said: a) Here's the background b) Here's how you got involved c) Play.
No lengthy dialogues, just rooms full of monsters, great graphics, good turn-based system, NPCs not saddled with deep dark secrets that at some point you'll be able to help them with in order to aid them in becoming better people... Just a lot of gameplay, which seems to be missing in too many RPGs.

[swcarter]

No lengthy dialogues, just rooms full of monsters, great graphics...

It sounds like you want to be playing action RPGs. I much prefer plot and character development to hordes of monsters, and so the Black Hound sounds fine to me.

SWC

[kyle]

You'd classify TOEE as an action RPG? Because that's what that quote was in reference to. I've played Diablo, but it's not my one of my favourites. There is a balance, I think, between providing a background synopsis and allowing the player to create their own story through their actions, versus the borderline interactive movie-style that so many games approach (KOTOR 2 comes to mind here).

Edit: And to try an keep this topic relevant to these boards, what I don't like about the Black Hound interview is that the features seem more to the linear, 'here's what's going to happen, fit in as best as you can to our requirements' style of play. Not asking for complete and total freedom or Oblivion-style gaming, but like I said above, there is a good balance that can be struck, and it seems like most designers err towards being moviemakers rather than game/worldmakers.

[mr_sir]

Personally, I prefer rpgs that have solid storylines, as long as they have good gameplay too. I'd rather a game like NWN2 spent time on a story than just constant gameplay. If I want to play without a story etc. then I'd just play an MMORPG instead.

[Siberys]

Think of it this way, it looks like you want a game similar to Diablo 2. Diablo 2 while a fun game in its own right, had a downright awful storyline with it.

It is exactly as you described ToEE, here's the background, go kill things. Now the catch is, it kept people addicted for what, 11 years now? There are still people playing and considering it an all time good game.

But what about the other action RPG's that are considered Diablo clones? One after another they came and rarely any of them were as eye appealing, this is because what the player saw was "Wait, why did I waste 50 bucks for this game, I could have done the exact same thing in diablo 2, where's the new stuff to it? Where's the fluff?"

That fluff people want, that extra something special for a player to keep his attention to that new game, that's story. If all you have is a few bits of dialogue about some terrible evil, and your main goal is to go out and kill things, level up, take there loot, and rinse/repeat, then that's fine with one or two games, but ten or fifteen more games later producing the same material, it gets old and bores the player.

This is why many go after the story. Story is not about movies and hollywood my friend, believe me. I've heard greater stories from a homeless man and his life than I have from hollywood. The story is there to keep your interest, to make you want to find out what happens next and thus want to play the game more. This is why ToEE was great. You say the story was paper thin, but I tend to disagree. ToEE was designed from an adventure for DND, it was not some random idea from some game designer, it had previously existed for 3rd edition dungeons and dragons. It was quite possibly the greatest adventure of it's time and deserves the title it has, a classic.

[GoldDragon]

Personally, I preffer the story element the way the Old Ultima Saga did it.

Basically, you were told what needed to be done, and then, basically, asked how did it happen. Told what to do, but HOW it got done was entirely up to the player.