i had Valygar during my third time (yes, that makes me an amateur) through the game and i really liked having a backstabbing dastard as he is! so now i have a question for my next time through...
who is the ultimate backstabber?
is it a kensai dual to thief or a multiclass fighter/thief or fighter/mage/thief?
i was thinking about the Kensai 12 > thief.
according to the kit description:
- +1 bonus to hit and damage for every 3 levels
which means +4 at level 12- -2 to Armor Class at character creation
- -1 to Speed for every 4 levels
which means -3 at level 12- Kai ability (10 second attack at maximum damage) once per day for every 4 levels
which means deadly backstab 3 times per day at level 12- Advanced Weapon Specialization (+++++)
- Can use any weapon (except for missile weapons)
Was thinking to ShadowKeep Yoshimo or Nalia or Imoen for these purposes.
For my 4th time through i was thinking of:
Me (Bard Skald...top that!)
Keldorn
Aerie
Nalia Shadowkeeped NPC to fighter/thief
Imoen (when available), to replace Nalia, for story purposes
or (Evil Party)
Me (Bard Skald)
Korgan
Edwin
Yoshimo shadowkeeped to kensai/thief
Imoen (when available), to replace Yoshi, for story purposes
SPOILER
The story behind is that when Imoen gets released from all the experiments of Joneleth she has been turned into a backstabbing monster... she is a child of Bhaal after all!
who is the ultimate backstabber?
1)If you're going to dual out of Fighter (and have ToB), wait until level 13, the extra 1/2 attack really is worth it.
2)That's not a bad backstabber, but I think a single-classed Assassin can do more damage (although he won't hit as often).
3)I prefer a F/T or F/M/T. Multiclassing gives you a lot of HP, there's no hassle of dualclassing, and your THAC0 will be improving the whole game (well, 'till level 20 at least). The Assassin will have a higher backstab modifier than this guy, but in practice it really doesn't matter.
2)That's not a bad backstabber, but I think a single-classed Assassin can do more damage (although he won't hit as often).
3)I prefer a F/T or F/M/T. Multiclassing gives you a lot of HP, there's no hassle of dualclassing, and your THAC0 will be improving the whole game (well, 'till level 20 at least). The Assassin will have a higher backstab modifier than this guy, but in practice it really doesn't matter.
"A life is not important, except in the impact it has on other lives."
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
so ok you would go for a multiclass as opposed to a dual class. i might agree on that, but what about the mighty KAI ability? consider also i would use this guy as a backstabber and archer kinda guy...
so maybe yeah an elven multiclass would do.
so i would like to hear more about who is best between
Kensai-->thief or F/T or F/M/T and why...
Kensai thief, yeah you have to wait till you get the abilities back but it doesn't take long to have 12 levels of thief...
or does it?
so maybe yeah an elven multiclass would do.
so i would like to hear more about who is best between
Kensai-->thief or F/T or F/M/T and why...
Kensai thief, yeah you have to wait till you get the abilities back but it doesn't take long to have 12 levels of thief...
or does it?
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Crenshinibon
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Now, my answer may be unconventional, but it does work for me.
My choice for the best backstabber is an Assassin/Cleric dual class. The level of the Assassin class should be as high as possible, but make sure to be able to use the class's abilities after you finish leveling on cleric. Make sure you have Use Any Item and Assassinate. Use Any Item takes more priority however.
Anyway, now you have a x7 backstab multiplier, a THAC0 that's better than that of a normal Rogue and an arsenal of priest spells. Well, with the spells you can buff yourself and increase you power, but the spell that stands out the most for a backstabber is Righteous Magic. Not only does it give you a hefty bonus to strength but it lets you deal maximum damage for the duration of the spell which is one round per level. That just puts Kai to shame. Besides, with any type of backstabber dualed to a Kensai I'd use Kai in combination with Assassination only, which is a bit tricky to pull off. Righteous magic amplifies your strength and lasts a a long time. Anyway, if you're the type of person that actually buys healing potions... now you don't have to. Your money is better spent on scrolls and buffing potions.
Anyway, as proven by VonDondu, thieves can only backstab with weapons that can be originally used by their class, without the Use Any item ability or the additional weapon proficiencies or what not that are gained by dual classing. Without Use Any Item, the only weapons that both a Thief and a Cleric can use are staves. Not to impressive, right? Wrong. Staff of the Ram +6, perhaps the most damaging weapon in the game. It's optional however, after you get the Use Any Item ability, you can backstab with any weapon you could use before as a thief. For me they are Kundane +2 and any other weapon that increases attacks per round or a weapon with a draining or damaging effect.
Anyway, with the help of the Wild Mage bug I concluded that your damage is directly affected by your THAC0. (I casted Tenser's Transformation on myself a bunch of times... until my THAC0 was -86... and the damage was very nice.) So, to make up for the lack of proficiencies I suggest purchasing Improved Haste and Tenser's Transformation scrolls. The first one will double your attacks while the second one will improve your AC, THAC0 and double your hitpoints among a few other things. A Contingency scroll might help. Actually, I'd suggest having the upgraded Hindo's Doom as a space holder for its ability to restore levels. Use Vhailor's Helm for Simulacarum. At the time of casting the Simulacarum will be 60% of your level, so you'd cast restoration on the clone through the Hindo's Doom that it wields and buff him up through a Spell Trigger as it's ideal for the required buffs. It lets you hold three spells of up to sixth level which would be any two priest spells you know as well as Righteous magic. As Tenser's Transformation disables the casting of spells you'd have to buff in a certain order. Make sure you have cast the spell Trigger in Advance and have it in your special abilities menu.
1.) Improved Haste
2.) Tenser's Transformation
3.) Spell Trigger.
I'm pretty sure that there is an item that gives you Improved Haste so if you do have that item I'd replace the scroll with a scroll of Contingency, just in case. Now, I'm only doing this through a Simulacarum as not to waste the scrolls. In the end it is as powerful as you are due to you removing the level drain effect from it.
So, you're all buffed up and you can sneak around (let me add that you can cast all of these spells while wearing any type of armor be it fullplate or whatever else you desire) your backstab does massive damage from the strength bonus, the weapon itself (in the case of the Staff of the Ram) and you do maximum damage due to Righteous magic. Yay. You could also rush into combat and activate Assassinate where, if you're dualwielding and have Kundane +2 in the offhand and a thief weapon in the main hand, you'd perform six attacks per round thanks to Improved Haste... six attacks per round of maximum backstab damage. Spiffy, eh? The only thing that a Kensai/Thief has over this build is the grandmastery of weapons... that's it. Well... maybe the abilities from the fighter pool.
Also, I'd like to add that Blades are much better than Skalds.
Oh, if I really did have to choose from the two you provided I would have to go for the Fighter/Mage/Thief due to the spell arsenal that the mage part posesses. With buffs that class can waste the Kensai/Thief as well as any other opponent.
My choice for the best backstabber is an Assassin/Cleric dual class. The level of the Assassin class should be as high as possible, but make sure to be able to use the class's abilities after you finish leveling on cleric. Make sure you have Use Any Item and Assassinate. Use Any Item takes more priority however.
Anyway, now you have a x7 backstab multiplier, a THAC0 that's better than that of a normal Rogue and an arsenal of priest spells. Well, with the spells you can buff yourself and increase you power, but the spell that stands out the most for a backstabber is Righteous Magic. Not only does it give you a hefty bonus to strength but it lets you deal maximum damage for the duration of the spell which is one round per level. That just puts Kai to shame. Besides, with any type of backstabber dualed to a Kensai I'd use Kai in combination with Assassination only, which is a bit tricky to pull off. Righteous magic amplifies your strength and lasts a a long time. Anyway, if you're the type of person that actually buys healing potions... now you don't have to. Your money is better spent on scrolls and buffing potions.
Anyway, as proven by VonDondu, thieves can only backstab with weapons that can be originally used by their class, without the Use Any item ability or the additional weapon proficiencies or what not that are gained by dual classing. Without Use Any Item, the only weapons that both a Thief and a Cleric can use are staves. Not to impressive, right? Wrong. Staff of the Ram +6, perhaps the most damaging weapon in the game. It's optional however, after you get the Use Any Item ability, you can backstab with any weapon you could use before as a thief. For me they are Kundane +2 and any other weapon that increases attacks per round or a weapon with a draining or damaging effect.
Anyway, with the help of the Wild Mage bug I concluded that your damage is directly affected by your THAC0. (I casted Tenser's Transformation on myself a bunch of times... until my THAC0 was -86... and the damage was very nice.) So, to make up for the lack of proficiencies I suggest purchasing Improved Haste and Tenser's Transformation scrolls. The first one will double your attacks while the second one will improve your AC, THAC0 and double your hitpoints among a few other things. A Contingency scroll might help. Actually, I'd suggest having the upgraded Hindo's Doom as a space holder for its ability to restore levels. Use Vhailor's Helm for Simulacarum. At the time of casting the Simulacarum will be 60% of your level, so you'd cast restoration on the clone through the Hindo's Doom that it wields and buff him up through a Spell Trigger as it's ideal for the required buffs. It lets you hold three spells of up to sixth level which would be any two priest spells you know as well as Righteous magic. As Tenser's Transformation disables the casting of spells you'd have to buff in a certain order. Make sure you have cast the spell Trigger in Advance and have it in your special abilities menu.
1.) Improved Haste
2.) Tenser's Transformation
3.) Spell Trigger.
I'm pretty sure that there is an item that gives you Improved Haste so if you do have that item I'd replace the scroll with a scroll of Contingency, just in case. Now, I'm only doing this through a Simulacarum as not to waste the scrolls. In the end it is as powerful as you are due to you removing the level drain effect from it.
So, you're all buffed up and you can sneak around (let me add that you can cast all of these spells while wearing any type of armor be it fullplate or whatever else you desire) your backstab does massive damage from the strength bonus, the weapon itself (in the case of the Staff of the Ram) and you do maximum damage due to Righteous magic. Yay. You could also rush into combat and activate Assassinate where, if you're dualwielding and have Kundane +2 in the offhand and a thief weapon in the main hand, you'd perform six attacks per round thanks to Improved Haste... six attacks per round of maximum backstab damage. Spiffy, eh? The only thing that a Kensai/Thief has over this build is the grandmastery of weapons... that's it. Well... maybe the abilities from the fighter pool.
Also, I'd like to add that Blades are much better than Skalds.
Oh, if I really did have to choose from the two you provided I would have to go for the Fighter/Mage/Thief due to the spell arsenal that the mage part posesses. With buffs that class can waste the Kensai/Thief as well as any other opponent.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Jedi_Sauraus
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Yeah the assasin -> Cleric would make a nice combo in theory. He is however going with a 5 man team, he would have all those nice abilities when ?? in Amkathran ?? Now if he were going solo that's a different story since you can probably max out by the end of chapter 4 if not sooner.
I'd reccommend the either a plain Assasin with Belm and CF or a Kensai 9 > Thief. Don't worry about Thac0 too much you'll be in negatives soon enough anyway, and when you attack from shadows you get a -4 bonus to thac0 anyway.
You'll do fine with either one but the Kensai > Thief will have higher damage output due to more attacks. 1.5 from progression as a fighter .5 from specialization. with a Kensai 13 you can get IIRC 9 atacks per round after improved haste. the assasin will have 5 only but will do them with a 7x multiplier.
That being said I would still reccommend a Kensai 9 so you can start enjoying yourself right away, he will have 8 attacks per round but you'll regain your abilities asap.
edit: Fighter/Thief 9 attacks multiple assasinate HLA's 5x multi enjoy
I'd reccommend the either a plain Assasin with Belm and CF or a Kensai 9 > Thief. Don't worry about Thac0 too much you'll be in negatives soon enough anyway, and when you attack from shadows you get a -4 bonus to thac0 anyway.
You'll do fine with either one but the Kensai > Thief will have higher damage output due to more attacks. 1.5 from progression as a fighter .5 from specialization. with a Kensai 13 you can get IIRC 9 atacks per round after improved haste. the assasin will have 5 only but will do them with a 7x multiplier.
That being said I would still reccommend a Kensai 9 so you can start enjoying yourself right away, he will have 8 attacks per round but you'll regain your abilities asap.
edit: Fighter/Thief 9 attacks multiple assasinate HLA's 5x multi
enjoyWell let us examine that claim for a moment...Crenshinibon wrote: Also, I'd like to add that Blades are much better than Skalds.
Skald Song is REALLY HELPFUL, especially the enhanced skald song (it's probably from a mod)...
i played with Haer'Dalis in a six team and in a four team and he really really really rocks! especially with Venturis blade (rogue rebalancing mod).
as for the ultimate backstabber yeah i like the idea of a cleric but it requires too much of a micromanagement... so i'll stick to the kensai/thief or i can think of a multiclass fighter/thief.
AND i am playing with a team of four and taking up either Nalia or Yoshimo when imoen is missing and then i am going to shadowkeep Imoen to meet the F/T or Kensai-->Thief specifications...
what would be the advantage of the multiclass over the dual class?
probably that i will have more fighting options is it?
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Jedi_Sauraus
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well you say skalds are better and as proof point to Haer'Dalis who in fact is a blade . On that note Crenshinibon can't help himself he will praise the Blade class because it is his favorite. on these forums you could probably find someone telling you how wicked the beast master is It's all a matter of taste. For my part nothing really beats a good Sorceror
When comparing two classes it is best to compare them without mods. Since enchanced Bard song HLA is the best of all of them IIRC the songs are the same. That being said it's +1 to hit and dmg, vs Offensive spin. IMO the blade wins.
On the Fighter/Thief vs Kensai>Thief topic, I would say the F/T would be better. You'll have the thaco of a fighter with UAI, and the standard backstab 5x multiplier. This is completely out done however by the fact that you can select assasination multiple times with 9 attacks/round this is really killer feature (it's a bug though so you may not want to use this. your only supposed to have 1 assasination)
The Kensai > Thief will have more skill points should you need them, Personally I get by in many games with just Imoen, but that really does depend on the player.
. On that note Crenshinibon can't help himself he will praise the Blade class because it is his favorite. on these forums you could probably find someone telling you how wicked the beast master is It's all a matter of taste. For my part nothing really beats a good Sorceror When comparing two classes it is best to compare them without mods. Since enchanced Bard song HLA is the best of all of them IIRC the songs are the same. That being said it's +1 to hit and dmg, vs Offensive spin. IMO the blade wins.
On the Fighter/Thief vs Kensai>Thief topic, I would say the F/T would be better. You'll have the thaco of a fighter with UAI, and the standard backstab 5x multiplier. This is completely out done however by the fact that you can select assasination multiple times with 9 attacks/round this is really killer feature (it's a bug though so you may not want to use this. your only supposed to have 1 assasination)
The Kensai > Thief will have more skill points should you need them, Personally I get by in many games with just Imoen, but that really does depend on the player.
Oh great, i was just about to start a similar thread I've downloaded Tactics and Ascension and I'm just about to start a new game with the in-game difficulty slider cranked all the way up.. And to top it off i downloaded the Alora sound set and i was thinking of making a female thief that will go around brightening everyone's day (or stabbing them in the back) I don't need her to be a replica of the real Alora (i think she'll be a tad underpowered in such a game), so i was having a hard time deciding between a Kensai 9 or 12 or 13/Thief x or a Fighter/Thief multi.. And after reading this whole thread i still can't make up my mind. I'm not that big of a thief fan usually and I haven't completed BG2 with one yet.. So, what would be best considering my situation (from a powergaming PoV i guess)?
P.S. Um, yeah, sorcerer.. How... original... I think someone proved in another thread that practically in BG2 Wild Mages are more powerful, due to a bug or something.. ?
P.P.S. Happy Happy, Joy Joy! Happy Happy, Joy Joy! :laugh:
I've downloaded Tactics and Ascension and I'm just about to start a new game with the in-game difficulty slider cranked all the way up.. And to top it off i downloaded the Alora sound set and i was thinking of making a female thief that will go around brightening everyone's day (or stabbing them in the back) I don't need her to be a replica of the real Alora (i think she'll be a tad underpowered in such a game), so i was having a hard time deciding between a Kensai 9 or 12 or 13/Thief x or a Fighter/Thief multi.. And after reading this whole thread i still can't make up my mind. I'm not that big of a thief fan usually and I haven't completed BG2 with one yet.. So, what would be best considering my situation (from a powergaming PoV i guess)?P.S. Um, yeah, sorcerer.. How... original...
I think someone proved in another thread that practically in BG2 Wild Mages are more powerful, due to a bug or something.. ?P.P.S. Happy Happy, Joy Joy! Happy Happy, Joy Joy! :laugh:
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Sheila Lee
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ok, ok...
Guys, i have to admit i am surprised, the assassin dualled to cleric doing THAT GARGANTUAN amount of damage makes him definitely the ultimate backstabber, and we could close the debate here... BUT
as i said it wouldn't fit comfortably in my game style...
i am thinking of a guy who is a fighter and a thief, can backstab and do quite a lot of damage but still some monsters see invisibility so, he would have to be able to help during a fight as well... i see him as an archer as well,
so my perfect guy would be (trying not to use Shadowkeeper too much)...
a backstabber AND an archer... so fighter/thief would do i think.
i am thinking of playing a trio this time:
EITHER:
Aerie/Keldorn/F+T
OR
Edwin/Korgan/F+T
(i accept suggestions on this as well)
-say i am going to play a F/M/T instead, would it be wise considering i am using three characters only?
-what is the best between F/T and F/M/T playing a trio?depending on what?
Thank you all.
Guys, i have to admit i am surprised, the assassin dualled to cleric doing THAT GARGANTUAN amount of damage makes him definitely the ultimate backstabber, and we could close the debate here... BUT
as i said it wouldn't fit comfortably in my game style...
i am thinking of a guy who is a fighter and a thief, can backstab and do quite a lot of damage but still some monsters see invisibility so, he would have to be able to help during a fight as well... i see him as an archer as well,
so my perfect guy would be (trying not to use Shadowkeeper too much)...
a backstabber AND an archer... so fighter/thief would do i think.
i am thinking of playing a trio this time:
EITHER:
Aerie/Keldorn/F+T
OR
Edwin/Korgan/F+T
(i accept suggestions on this as well)
-say i am going to play a F/M/T instead, would it be wise considering i am using three characters only?
-what is the best between F/T and F/M/T playing a trio?depending on what?
Thank you all.
Aerie/Keldorn are superior to Edwin/Korgan, cleric spells can help a lot. But I wouldn't look to much at power, consider the roleplaying aspects.
Do you want to play a backstabbing hero or villain ?
No matter how big your party is, a F/M/T is always far superior to a F/T.
Fighters don't get much after level 13 and you don't gain anything useful for the thief levels after you've received the 5x backstab at level 13. (except HLAs, but a triple class character gets them as fast as a double class one)
From the roleplaying point of view taking mage levels can be dangerous, the overpowered mage spells can dominate your character and you might end up just playing a mage who can open locks and detect traps.
Do you want to play a backstabbing hero or villain ?
No matter how big your party is, a F/M/T is always far superior to a F/T.
Fighters don't get much after level 13 and you don't gain anything useful for the thief levels after you've received the 5x backstab at level 13. (except HLAs, but a triple class character gets them as fast as a double class one)
From the roleplaying point of view taking mage levels can be dangerous, the overpowered mage spells can dominate your character and you might end up just playing a mage who can open locks and detect traps.
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Sheila Lee
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I think a dual class character would be fun in a smaller party like that. Start with an assassin then dual to a fighter. Your assassin can do the ranged/backstab stuff, then you can add grandmastery in your ranged weapon of choice once you've dualled to a fighter, when you get your assassin levels back you can do ranged poison damage as well.
You'll miss out on some hit points, but if you were planning to use your char as a ranged attacker or backstabber you don't really need that many. You'll have a while when you won't have your thief skills available, but your mage can cast knock in the meantime, so it's not a huge loss.
You'll miss out on some hit points, but if you were planning to use your char as a ranged attacker or backstabber you don't really need that many. You'll have a while when you won't have your thief skills available, but your mage can cast knock in the meantime, so it's not a huge loss.
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Jedi_Sauraus
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@ Sator: Whats wrong with liking a sorceror or arcane spell casters ?? Sure it's not original, but many people like the most powerfull single class in the game (or at least one of the best, I'm nor going to argue it either way because I've not tried the WM. I can't imagine the WM being PHAT UBER compared to a sorceror however)
I also find playing any solo class to be a good roleplaying expierience. It's when you get to the weird combos like Kensai > Thief/Mage or Assasin cleric or something equily strange that it just feels wrong to me somehow.
@Kmonster: I'd say the F/M is alot better than F/M/T due to level 9 spells, provided there is no exp cap remover. This isn't however the best thread to discuss it some I'm going to leave it at that.
@Sheila Lee: Could you please explain how on earth your going to do 2400 damage with a single backstab ?? unless that was a typo and you added a zero by mistake I am definitly missing something. I'm well familiar with all clerical spells as well as the Assasins 7x backstab and their kit in general and this leaves me stumped.
Regardless, an Assasin with UAI and and 1 Assasinate will need, off the top of my head, 3300-3400k expierience. It will take at least that long for you to regain the thieving abilities if you dual at such high levels with the 5 man party proposed earlier on.
The prospect of nurturing an assasin to the 3 000 000 point (or higher) so he comes in to his own, then throwing it all away with the next level up and babysitting him while he's a low level cleric, until he has a total of 7 000 000 give or take a few hundred, is quite unattractive. Well except if you solo
(or at least one of the best, I'm nor going to argue it either way because I've not tried the WM. I can't imagine the WM being PHAT UBER compared to a sorceror however)I also find playing any solo class to be a good roleplaying expierience. It's when you get to the weird combos like Kensai > Thief/Mage or Assasin cleric or something equily strange that it just feels wrong to me somehow.
@Kmonster: I'd say the F/M is alot better than F/M/T due to level 9 spells, provided there is no exp cap remover. This isn't however the best thread to discuss it some I'm going to leave it at that.
@Sheila Lee: Could you please explain how on earth your going to do 2400 damage with a single backstab ?? unless that was a typo and you added a zero by mistake
I am definitly missing something. I'm well familiar with all clerical spells as well as the Assasins 7x backstab and their kit in general and this leaves me stumped. Regardless, an Assasin with UAI and and 1 Assasinate will need, off the top of my head, 3300-3400k expierience. It will take at least that long for you to regain the thieving abilities if you dual at such high levels with the 5 man party proposed earlier on.
The prospect of nurturing an assasin to the 3 000 000 point (or higher) so he comes in to his own, then throwing it all away with the next level up and babysitting him while he's a low level cleric, until he has a total of 7 000 000 give or take a few hundred, is quite unattractive. Well except if you solo
Jedi don't get me wrong, I've loved Sorcerers since I soloed one in IWD2, which was a long, looong time ago.. But you must admit, it is a vastly overpowered class. As far as the WM thing, i think Crensh could enlighten us, if the OP and Fable would allow the off topic.. So, anyway, I've chosen a Kensai13/Thief x, specializing in katanas and scimitars later on.. Weapon choices (highlight):
But you must admit, it is a vastly overpowered class. As far as the WM thing, i think Crensh could enlighten us, if the OP and Fable would allow the off topic.. So, anyway, I've chosen a Kensai13/Thief x, specializing in katanas and scimitars later on.. Weapon choices (highlight): Spoiler
CF + Belm for SOA and later on Hindo's Doom + Scarlet Ninja To for ToB.. I guess it will work well enough for the insane difficulty setting I've chosen..
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Crenshinibon
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The only reason that I'd have to agree with Jed on Fighter/Mage is because the class gets to pick Assassinate multiple times. Now, I'm not sure if the F/M/T can do the same but the F/M can cast any spell that the other class in question can through scrolls.
'Sokay Jed, I soloed a Bounty Hunter a long while back. I strongly reccomend it, it's fun. That's what made me learn the hit and run of backstab (or was it the original BG?)
The Use Any Item and Assassinate are perks really. You can backstab the old fashioned way as well. It's just that I'm not a big fan of clerics. *gasp*
Oh, the Wild Mage can be that uber. XD If any of you would like to join my on Gamespy to see it in action... by all means do.
'Sokay Jed, I soloed a Bounty Hunter a long while back. I strongly reccomend it, it's fun. That's what made me learn the hit and run of backstab (or was it the original BG?)
The Use Any Item and Assassinate are perks really. You can backstab the old fashioned way as well. It's just that I'm not a big fan of clerics. *gasp*
Oh, the Wild Mage can be that uber. XD If any of you would like to join my on Gamespy to see it in action... by all means do.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
The FMT is the most powerful character proposed here who can backstab. However, the FMT is not always a better THIEF than the FT. I fight some of the toughest battles at relatively low level (fighter level 8-13) or so. The FT will gain his backstab multiplier more quickly and the nice traps you get at L11. He'll also have more thief points for stealth and trap setting. Once the FMT gets a lot of XP and picks up Mislead, etc., he's an easy choice. On the other hand, I get more enjoyable challenge using the FT.
As Chris Lee has suggested, the kensai-thief can be a better backstabber than the assassin. If I wanted to do nothing more than maximize backstab damage, I'd probably go with the kensai. He has bonuses to hit - you get 0 damage on a backstab that misses. He has increased weapon speed to make sure he hits the back before the victim moves. He has kai to maximize damage of the backstab. Also, he's certainly a better fighter than the assassin. But a kensai is not a thief - the huge problem of dual classing. For that reason and the loss of HLAs, I readily choose the multiclass. On the other hand, if you want to hack Sarevok into a kensai-thief, that's nice. You loose the fighter whirlwinds and your archery is limited to throwing daggers and axes, but the deathbringer assault is neat. I like kensai 9-thief in SoA. In ToB with small groups, I would go with kensai 13-thief. With big groups, I may consider kensai 12-thief for ToB.
Off topic: the wizard, wild-mage, and sorcerer all have their advantages. At high levels, the wild-mage and sorcerer are better than the wizard generally; although, I was wishing I had Edwin with a full spell book when fighting Pontifex. I love the sorcerer's ability to cast the HLA spells and level 9 spells as needed (anything she knows she can cast without choosing which will be memorized each day). Still, in general, I am leaning toward the wild-mage as the most powerful class of all (at high level).
As Chris Lee has suggested, the kensai-thief can be a better backstabber than the assassin. If I wanted to do nothing more than maximize backstab damage, I'd probably go with the kensai. He has bonuses to hit - you get 0 damage on a backstab that misses. He has increased weapon speed to make sure he hits the back before the victim moves. He has kai to maximize damage of the backstab. Also, he's certainly a better fighter than the assassin. But a kensai is not a thief - the huge problem of dual classing. For that reason and the loss of HLAs, I readily choose the multiclass. On the other hand, if you want to hack Sarevok into a kensai-thief, that's nice. You loose the fighter whirlwinds and your archery is limited to throwing daggers and axes, but the deathbringer assault is neat. I like kensai 9-thief in SoA. In ToB with small groups, I would go with kensai 13-thief. With big groups, I may consider kensai 12-thief for ToB.
Off topic: the wizard, wild-mage, and sorcerer all have their advantages. At high levels, the wild-mage and sorcerer are better than the wizard generally; although, I was wishing I had Edwin with a full spell book when fighting Pontifex. I love the sorcerer's ability to cast the HLA spells and level 9 spells as needed (anything she knows she can cast without choosing which will be memorized each day). Still, in general, I am leaning toward the wild-mage as the most powerful class of all (at high level).
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Jedi_Sauraus
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I believe you Crenshinibon, when you say the wild mage is really a whole lot better if you say so. However it can't be due to the wild surges only, There must be some cheese I'm not aware of. Care to enlighten me
A F/M can't use assasinate as he has no thief levels, so to clarify IMO Fighter/Mage > F/M/T > F/T. The reason being is that IIRC the F/M/T can will still have a good thaco, full fighter attacks, and is still able to select assasinate multiple times, (I think this goes for all thief multiclasses) on top of that he has the benefit of some spell casting thats not based on scrolls
The F/M tops all due to 2 level 9 slots
I still haven't heard back from the person who said 2400 is possible is a single backstab with an Assasin>Cleric. Was this a typo ?? the damage looks crazy you could probably kill Abazigal in Ascension with 1 hit, with that kind of output. (well if he were susceptible to backstab )
A F/M can't use assasinate as he has no thief levels, so to clarify IMO Fighter/Mage > F/M/T > F/T. The reason being is that IIRC the F/M/T can will still have a good thaco, full fighter attacks, and is still able to select assasinate multiple times, (I think this goes for all thief multiclasses) on top of that he has the benefit of some spell casting thats not based on scrolls
The F/M tops all due to 2 level 9 slots
I still haven't heard back from the person who said 2400 is possible is a single backstab with an Assasin>Cleric. Was this a typo ?? the damage looks crazy you could probably kill Abazigal in Ascension with 1 hit, with that kind of output. (well if he were susceptible to backstab
)I think it may have been a typo.. Assuming that the best weapon one could backstab with legally in the game is the Staff of the Ram + 6:
Damage: (1D6 + 12 crushing, +1D4 piercing) + 14 (from 25 str) x7, this would give us a maximum backstab of 252 (i don't know if critical hits count as well), and even with assassinate (which i don't know what does) and all the poison you could dump on your staff, this still has a long way to go to reach 2400....
About the WM issue, i think it's the fact that you can use all your lvl 1 slots to cast lvl 9 spells (or whatever else you feel like) with a casting time of 0,, And with the option of wild surging for even more destruction.
Damage: (1D6 + 12 crushing, +1D4 piercing) + 14 (from 25 str) x7, this would give us a maximum backstab of 252 (i don't know if critical hits count as well), and even with assassinate (which i don't know what does) and all the poison you could dump on your staff, this still has a long way to go to reach 2400....
About the WM issue, i think it's the fact that you can use all your lvl 1 slots to cast lvl 9 spells (or whatever else you feel like) with a casting time of 0,, And with the option of wild surging for even more destruction.
I think you are right!Sator wrote:About the WM issue, i think it's the fact that you can use all your lvl 1 slots to cast lvl 9 spells (or whatever else you feel like) with a casting time of 0,, And with the option of wild surging for even more destruction.
In DnD 3.5 vernacular, it's like having quickened spells. You will be able to cast 2 or more times each round! "Spells cast through the Dweomer do not count towards your "one spell per round" limit. Pump out Dweomers as if you had a free Improved Alacrity." -from XyX guide