You guys are almost right about the WM, however, it is a bug that makes him so powerful. I can think of three spells that are affected by this bug and... well... basically what it grants you is no casting delay, instant cast time and limitless spells. Yep yep.
Sator, I think you're pretty much right on the backstab issue. I do not think that critical hits count during a backstab.
I made a thread once, when I first found out about this bug... although I thought at the time it was done through SK. There UserUnfriendly had posted a list of value and what they do within the game. Well, I used that in an attempt to figure it out and while imitating the effects through SK you can get the no delay part, the limitless spells part is impossible as far as I know.
who is the ultimate backstabber?
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Crenshinibon
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Sheila Lee
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Oh ye of little faith 
No it wasn't a typo!
I have indeed managed a backstab of 2406 (no typo!) on an unarmed Sarevok, although this was a critical hit it was not quite with the optimum equipment, so higher damage is possible.
This uses some (legitimate) cheese within the game, although it's still possible to do over 800 points of damage without using cheese.
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I'll do the non-cheese version first.
You need to get one HLA for your assassin (use any item) and then dual to cleric. You need a bard (for the improved bard song). You need a scroll of tensers transformation and a scroll of shapechange. You need 25 strength (quite easy to achieve with a cleric), the gauntlets of extraordinary specialization and you need to be wielding the Equalizer in your off hand (it doesn't matter what weapon you have in your on hand, use your fist!). You need to backstab an unarmed (or missile weapon armed) chaotic evil adversary. You need to cast aid, bless, shapechange to Iron Golem (from scroll) and tensers transformation (from scroll).
Then hide your Iron Golem in the shadows (!!!!) and backstab away! This assumes you get a critical hit:
For an Assassin->Cleric(24->27)
Assassin Bonus : +1
Iron Golem's Fist : +40
Improved Bard Song : +4
Cleric Aid : +1
Cleric Bless : +1
Tenser's Transformation : +2
GoESpecialisation : +2
Unarmed : +4
Maximum Total : 55
25 STR Damage Bonus : +14
Equaliser Damage Bonus : +6
Total Damage = [(55 * 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 810dmg!
I think you could use Vhailor's helm and get your simulation to do the backstab - then you don't even use up the scrolls.
Note the cleric is only required for the easier path to 25 strength and the aid and bless. An solo assassin/mage with a strength potion would be able to do 350+ damage (700+ on a critical hit) on a regular basis.
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Cheese version
The version uses the fact that Improved Bard Songs stack, including ones from misleads. So you need a custom multiplayer party consisting of an assassin/cleric and 5 bards. The bards each cast mislead x5 (one does x6 with ring of wizardry) and all bards and all misleads sing.
The rest is the same as before.
For an Assassin->Cleric(24->27) with 5 max level bard helpers. 1 bard helper has a ring of wizardry, giving 5 bards and 26 misleads.
Assassin Bonus : +1
Iron Golem's Fist : +40
Improved Bard Song (+4*31) : +124
Cleric Aid : +1
Cleric Bless : +1
Tenser's Transformation : +2
GoESpecialisation : +2
Unarmed : +4
Maximum Total : 175
25 STR Damage Bonus : +14
Equaliser Damage Bonus : +6
Total Damage = [(175 * 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 2490dmg!!
Misleads hang around for 1 round/level, so if you really wanted to you could rush a bit and add some extra cheesiness with some spell traps (scroll and/or staff) and pre-prepared symbols and get even more clones... or maybe 5 chain contingencies (cast earlier from scrolls) each with 3 x Mislead. Or maybe some project image scrolls? Or all of the above? :mischief:
You do have to wonder exactly what is going through your victims head while he/she/it is standing there being regaled by a chorus of 26 visible and 5 invisible bards...
No it wasn't a typo! I have indeed managed a backstab of 2406 (no typo!) on an unarmed Sarevok, although this was a critical hit it was not quite with the optimum equipment, so higher damage is possible.
This uses some (legitimate) cheese within the game, although it's still possible to do over 800 points of damage without using cheese.
---
I'll do the non-cheese version first.
You need to get one HLA for your assassin (use any item) and then dual to cleric. You need a bard (for the improved bard song). You need a scroll of tensers transformation and a scroll of shapechange. You need 25 strength (quite easy to achieve with a cleric), the gauntlets of extraordinary specialization and you need to be wielding the Equalizer in your off hand (it doesn't matter what weapon you have in your on hand, use your fist!). You need to backstab an unarmed (or missile weapon armed) chaotic evil adversary. You need to cast aid, bless, shapechange to Iron Golem (from scroll) and tensers transformation (from scroll).
Then hide your Iron Golem in the shadows (!!!!) and backstab away! This assumes you get a critical hit:
For an Assassin->Cleric(24->27)
Assassin Bonus : +1
Iron Golem's Fist : +40
Improved Bard Song : +4
Cleric Aid : +1
Cleric Bless : +1
Tenser's Transformation : +2
GoESpecialisation : +2
Unarmed : +4
Maximum Total : 55
25 STR Damage Bonus : +14
Equaliser Damage Bonus : +6
Total Damage = [(55 * 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 810dmg!
I think you could use Vhailor's helm and get your simulation to do the backstab - then you don't even use up the scrolls.
Note the cleric is only required for the easier path to 25 strength and the aid and bless. An solo assassin/mage with a strength potion would be able to do 350+ damage (700+ on a critical hit) on a regular basis.
---
Cheese version
The version uses the fact that Improved Bard Songs stack, including ones from misleads. So you need a custom multiplayer party consisting of an assassin/cleric and 5 bards. The bards each cast mislead x5 (one does x6 with ring of wizardry) and all bards and all misleads sing.
The rest is the same as before.
For an Assassin->Cleric(24->27) with 5 max level bard helpers. 1 bard helper has a ring of wizardry, giving 5 bards and 26 misleads.
Assassin Bonus : +1
Iron Golem's Fist : +40
Improved Bard Song (+4*31) : +124
Cleric Aid : +1
Cleric Bless : +1
Tenser's Transformation : +2
GoESpecialisation : +2
Unarmed : +4
Maximum Total : 175
25 STR Damage Bonus : +14
Equaliser Damage Bonus : +6
Total Damage = [(175 * 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 2490dmg!!
Misleads hang around for 1 round/level, so if you really wanted to you could rush a bit and add some extra cheesiness with some spell traps (scroll and/or staff) and pre-prepared symbols and get even more clones... or maybe 5 chain contingencies (cast earlier from scrolls) each with 3 x Mislead. Or maybe some project image scrolls? Or all of the above? :mischief:
You do have to wonder exactly what is going through your victims head while he/she/it is standing there being regaled by a chorus of 26 visible and 5 invisible bards...
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Jedi_Sauraus
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Impressive, this is called working the engine Ok I'd like to ask a few questions.
1) where did the *2 term come from at the end of your equation?? Critical hits add not multiply you'd simply add the extra dmg that is done by staff of ram or whatever else. ie a critical hit would add about an extra 30 dmg or so
2) in the first scenario would it not be (55 + STR and equilizer bonus) * 7 ?? making it (55+20) * 7 (525)??
Well anyways it would make a nice solo char, but in a large team he would take forever to make. I'm wondering why you add cleric levels at all ?? the cleric specific spells add a grand total of 2 damage and there can't be too much diffeerence between 22 STR from the belt and 25 from Duhm or anything else. Instead of Cleric why not go with mage levels to get access to chain contingency 3x project image for 3 clones that could each potentially do 2410 dmg (if your calculations are right that *2 term is what I'm worried about)
For that matter why not just make a fighter thief with 7 attacks per round (no Belm offhand) and a x5 multiplier (the benefit being assasinate HLA selectable multiple times)
IMO that second method is way to cheesy to have 5 bards all cast 6 mislead clones in a corner.
Ok I'd like to ask a few questions.1) where did the *2 term come from at the end of your equation?? Critical hits add not multiply you'd simply add the extra dmg that is done by staff of ram or whatever else. ie a critical hit would add about an extra 30 dmg or so
2) in the first scenario would it not be (55 + STR and equilizer bonus) * 7 ?? making it (55+20) * 7 (525)??
Well anyways it would make a nice solo char, but in a large team he would take forever to make. I'm wondering why you add cleric levels at all ?? the cleric specific spells add a grand total of 2 damage and there can't be too much diffeerence between 22 STR from the belt and 25 from Duhm or anything else. Instead of Cleric why not go with mage levels to get access to chain contingency 3x project image for 3 clones that could each potentially do 2410 dmg (if your calculations are right that *2 term is what I'm worried about)
For that matter why not just make a fighter thief with 7 attacks per round (no Belm offhand) and a x5 multiplier (the benefit being assasinate HLA selectable multiple times)
IMO that second method is way to cheesy to have 5 bards all cast 6 mislead clones in a corner.
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Sheila Lee
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Hi Jedi,
Critical hits always do double damage - of your damage roll. You still need to roll a maximum on your damage roll to do all of the above.
Strength and Equalizer bonus (and elemental damage) come after the backstab damage has been worked out. You can experiment with it and see for yourself how it works out. I often experiment with a Kensai or Kensai/Thief because using Kai you're guaranteed max damage.
I agree that an assasin dualled to mage or fighter/thief would probably be a more practical choice for a backstabbing character, but no-one beats the assassin/cleric for a maximum damage backstab. Those '2' extra points become 28 extra points after x7x2, which is quite a lot. So an assassin cleric doing a 'routine' backstab with the staff of the ram will still do 14 points more damage per backstab on an average hit and 28 more points on a critical. Draw Upon Holy Might is very cheap for the cleric too.
All of the above was done using core vanilla rules and no mods. If you add quietus+4 from the item upgrades mod and the short sword of backstabbing from the rogue rebalancing mod you can get your backstab multiplier up to x9.
That's 1000+ damage for the less cheesy version above, and 3000+ with extra cheesiness.
If you feel really evil you can up the difficulty to insane and backstab an unarmed (and disposable!) member of your own party (or one of those misleads), for double the damage again!!
Critical hits always do double damage - of your damage roll. You still need to roll a maximum on your damage roll to do all of the above.
Strength and Equalizer bonus (and elemental damage) come after the backstab damage has been worked out. You can experiment with it and see for yourself how it works out. I often experiment with a Kensai or Kensai/Thief because using Kai you're guaranteed max damage.
I agree that an assasin dualled to mage or fighter/thief would probably be a more practical choice for a backstabbing character, but no-one beats the assassin/cleric for a maximum damage backstab. Those '2' extra points become 28 extra points after x7x2, which is quite a lot. So an assassin cleric doing a 'routine' backstab with the staff of the ram will still do 14 points more damage per backstab on an average hit and 28 more points on a critical. Draw Upon Holy Might is very cheap for the cleric too.
All of the above was done using core vanilla rules and no mods. If you add quietus+4 from the item upgrades mod and the short sword of backstabbing from the rogue rebalancing mod you can get your backstab multiplier up to x9.
That's 1000+ damage for the less cheesy version above, and 3000+ with extra cheesiness.
If you feel really evil you can up the difficulty to insane and backstab an unarmed (and disposable!) member of your own party (or one of those misleads), for double the damage again!!
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Jedi_Sauraus
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Oh, I think I got backstabbing rules confused with 3E you're probably right saying that critical hits double your damage. I had been playing IWD2 and studied the manual extensively so I could ask some slightly more educated questions on that forum
about that 28 dmg it's not still not much when your doing 2400 dmg thats a) slightly more than 1% and b) completly redundant if your doing that much damage or even "only" 800 your going to drop everything with a single backstab. It's certainly not worth the huge dueling period IMO. Trading that extra bit of offense for the extra defense of stone skin and mirror image and other wonderfull mage spells is not worth it.
Anyhow, you really know your thieves thanks for enlightening me to the possibilites I may just give the assasin a go, IWD2 is unfortunatly boring and the level ups that make every rpg fun are rare and unfortunatly becoming rarer with that insane system whereby the higher your level the less expierience you get, and at the same time the sheer amount of exp needed to level is higher with each level
you're probably right saying that critical hits double your damage. I had been playing IWD2 and studied the manual extensively so I could ask some slightly more educated questions on that forum about that 28 dmg it's not still not much when your doing 2400 dmg thats a) slightly more than 1% and b) completly redundant if your doing that much damage or even "only" 800 your going to drop everything with a single backstab. It's certainly not worth the huge dueling period IMO. Trading that extra bit of offense for the extra defense of stone skin and mirror image and other wonderfull mage spells is not worth it.
Anyhow, you really know your thieves
thanks for enlightening me to the possibilites I may just give the assasin a go, IWD2 is unfortunatly boring and the level ups that make every rpg fun are rare and unfortunatly becoming rarer with that insane system whereby the higher your level the less expierience you get, and at the same time the sheer amount of exp needed to level is higher with each level