New UPP (you guys getting sick of these yet?)

[Klorox]

Let me begin by saying that I really, truly appreciate the help you guys have given me, Aerich, SD, kmonster and Claudius especially.

Here's my next go at a power party:

#1: Deep Gnome
Pal3/Ftr4/Rog3/Illusionist20
STR 16 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 5 CHA 1

This guy fights with a sword and shield, is a good thiefy type, and a great backup mage. His main role is as a decoy, which he should excel at.

#2: Female Drow Ftr4/Rog3/Monk3/Transmuter5/Dreadmistress15
STR 11 DEX 20 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 18 CHA 5

Secondary decoy, an okay tank without much damage output (but should rarely take damage either), and backup divine caster. Being a transmuter, she gets a few extra perks (aside from the extra spell/level, she can get a cool bonus in the underdark, extra HP IIRC). Maximum WIS and DEX are chosen for AC purposes. Will be much stronger when buffs kick in.

#3: Aasimar Sorc28/Pal2
STR 10 DEX 12 CON 18 INT 14 WIS 6 CHA 20

This is my diplomat and main blaster. I know the low WIS looks bad, but once Pal levels are added (I'm planning right after learning Fireball), the CHA bonus to saves will erase that.

#4: Female Drow Battlemaster17/Drd13
STR 18 DEX 18 CON 16 INT 5 WIS 18 CHA 5

This is a run of the mill tank/cleric type in normal mode. When I reach HoF, the Druid levels will be added to help the decoys a lot. As the main cleric, even when melee gets too tough, she'll be able to hurl throwing axes into combat to help out the two decoys.

#5: Male Wild Elf Brd11/Sorc19
STR 10 DEX 20 CON 18 INT 2 WIS 8 CHA 18

This is my bard/backup blaster. I plan on starting him as a Bard, but advancing as a Sorcerer after level 5 (when the Luck song is gained). I'll eventually get him to Bard 11 in HoF (for the Sith song), but his main roles are to be a backup blaster and a superior archer. The lower WIS shouldn't be a problem, as Will Saves are primary saves for both classes.

I could also substitute this character with:

#5a: Male Drow Bard 11/Wizard 19.
STR 8 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 20 WIS 4 CHA 14

This guys could serve as a great loremaster, backup blaster, and archer as well. I'd choose some Mage specialty, probably Diviner. I'm pretty sure the Bard levels will erase the specialist restrictions, so it shouldn't matter anyway.


EDITS:

I like the idea of 5a, since he relives a lot of the skill points (which are being spread kinda thin) on character 1. My only worry here is that since I've got so many Wizards (1,2,5a), that I might not have enough scrolls. This is probably silly though.

I'm also of the mindset that I should (at least at some point) add a 6th character here. I don't know where I should go with it though.

I really do like the idea of having two characters who can be effective decoys in HoF. It should really help a whole lot.

[Aerich]

Char 1 is fine. Will saves are the key, so much so that I'd consider putting a later stat point in Wis. The character needs Iron Will badly. How are you going to start it? Rogue2 then illusionist, or take some of the warrior levels early? With pally levels and 1 Cha, he better not talk to anybody.

Char 2 is, I know, essentially a clone from SD's power party. I wasn't sold on it then, and I'm not sure I'm sold on it now. Admittedly I haven't played it, but I do think it's somewhat of a shame not to take full advantage (e.g. levels) of the dreadmaster's powers as an elite enchantment caster. However, I'm sure it's playable.

Char 3 is just fine as a blaster. However, I don't like a pally as a party's main talker. You lose rewards, dialogues, and opportunities to buy (e.g. Yquoq, Beodawn, fake Nathaniel).

Char 4 is a broken record for me. 13 lvls of druid just for Barkskin is bad enough, but taking levels away from the "main" clerical caster is worse. A lvl 17 cleric gets 2 lvl 8 spells. A lvl 20 cleric gets 4 lvl 8 spells. What's so special about cleric spell lvl 8? Mass Heal and Symbol of Hopelessness.

Char 5 is another split-class that hurts effectiveness. War Chant is not going to dominate HoF, and a Bard5/Sorc 12 or whatever it ends up as at the end of normal mode is really only fit for support purposes for a long, long time. Note that a Bard5/Sorc12 will have a BAB of about +9/+4, so it will hardly be a superior ranged attacker. If you must take this character, please take a human instead of a wild elf. One spell point per level is not enough to get decent ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft (you do want elemental feats with your "backup blaster", right?), and an extra feat is always nice. Use it for Martial Weapon:Bow if you want. A bard/wiz will have higher spell access and more versatility, but that's about it.

If you do choose to take 6 characters instead of 5, I'd recommend splitting up some of the classes and roles/duties. You could make Char 2 an evil Rogue3/Ftr4/Wiz5(or transmuter, if you must)/Demarck of Mask18, make Char 4 a Ftr4/Rogue3/Dreadmistress23 or Ftr4/Dreadmistress26, and make Char 6 a Barb3/Rogue3/Ftr4/Druid20. Focus Chars 4 & 6 on their major spellcasting classes so Char 2 can take early mix-in levels for better tanking.

[Aerich]

Just some general advice here, as opposed to my previous posts' party-specific comments. Klorox, if you've finished the game a time or two you may be able to get away with lower caster levels in many encounters on normal difficulty, but IMO too many early mix-ins for the party will come back to bite you sooner or later.

With a high ECL penalty party with lots of mix-ins to be taken early, you need a character or three that is capable of carrying the load, preferably in terms of spells as well as melee.

Non-tank spellcasters with ECLs should focus on their major class. Take two mix-in levels max in the normal game.

For easier runs through the game, focus in on what a character does well, and maximize that potential. Having several dominant casters is the easiest road to a powerful party.

[Klorox]

Screw this above party.

Thanks Aerich, I really hear your advice, and I'm trying to figure a way to best use it for my party.

I want (at least) 1 of every major casting type in my party. I also think it's a good idea to have every character (in HoF) have at least about 1/2 their levels dedicated to casting classes. I really want at least 1 decoy type to handle HoF also.

I hear what you're saying about the Pally being the diplomat. I'm considering still playing that Bard/Sorcerer, but a little differently. One, the Bard/Sorc would become my diplomat (why not?). Two, the character would be built one of the following ways:

1)Bard 11>squat for a while, then add Sorc. This adds a good Bard for regular mode, and a good Sorc, albeit very late into HoF.
2)Sorc 19>Bard 11 This gives me two quality blasters for all of regular mode, giving me a ton of power. The Bard wouldn't even enter the picture until HoF.
3)Bard 1> Sorc 19 > Bard 11 This is probably the best build, since I want the character to be my diplomat. Bards start with more skillpoints than Sorcerers, and that's significant when you need a lot of skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, Intimidate and Concentration, with Alchemy and Knowledge: Arcana as well if this character is a loremaster for me). This build allows the use of some cool Bard-only items too.

I also note that you say "WCotS won't dominate HoF," but the AC bonus is really needed for those decoys. Also, I remember when playing IWD1, I almost wished I could just freeze my Bard after level 11... he hardly added anything after that.
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I like SD's character 2 build because it's combining the Banite Cleric with the Monk class, allowing for an awesome decoy type. The WIS bonuses are very synergetic.
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I would like to build a nice Druid spellcaster. I liked their spells better in IWD1, but I think they can still be pretty good. I'll have to think of a good Druid build, and stop viewing them as "a support type that's only good for Barkskin."
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I really like the Tempus Cleric class. My problem is finding good "mix-ins" for this type, as I think the warrior classes are kind of a waste (since they fight great without the classes), but levels over 20 as a Cleric aren't so fine either. I guess I could cross that bridge when I get there, but I can't really think of any good mix-ins.
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[Siberys]

You should really create a single thread for this kind of thing and update it rather than create new multiple threads. When replying, you can type up to 10,000 characters in the reply box, and that should be more than enough to continue adding to the initial post.

[Aerich]

I'd go further - I'd say that at least five out of six should have 2/3 of their levels in casting classes.

For a decoy/tank type leaning more toward tanking, Silverdragon's character 1 is excellent. Rogue3 for evasion, Ftr4 for feats and weapon specialization, Barb3 for HP and movement (rage is minor), and lots of wizard buffs - note that it should focus on buffs and no-save spells, since it is not optimized as an offensive caster (e.g. with max casting stat and GSF feats).

You might also consider a monk. I've found a monk to be an excellent decoy in normal - I haven't tested a monk against tough opponents in HoF yet, since that party fell early in HoF to a computer crash. I could see some combination of monk and illusionist (deep gnome, of course) being very powerful. Say Monk20/Ill10 or Monk25/Ill5. There are potentially two problems with this build; first, I can't remember if the multiclassed monk BAB screwup has been fixed - anybody know? Second, stat distribution is a pain. For a true decoy build, I'd suggest something like 7/20/12/14/20/1, with Str buffs a must and level up points going to Wis or Dex and maybe a point somewhere to Str.

One bard build that I suggested elsewhere is a Rogue3/Barb3/Ftr4/Bard20 build. It's not a killer in HoF (no bard build is, IMO), but it does what a bard is supposed to do, and that is to enhance other characters with songs/buffs and by doing a lot of other things to free up stats and skills for other characters to maximize their own potential. I'd suggest a stat breakdown something like 8/18/10/14/8/18, with a human, or even dumping two more points from Wis into Int (and taking the Iron Will feat!). It can be the party leader, diplomat, locksmith, songster, identifier, and occasional caster. Give it specialization in a ranged weapon and maybe GSF:Enchantment, but don't get the idea that it's going to be much more than adequate as an archer and spellcaster. Play it as pure support; it shouldn't have more than maybe 5% of the party's kills, if that. Other rogues can concentrate on scouting and trap removal skills. Now your sorc can take those pally levels without worrying, and can take a fairly minimal amount of Int without worrying about talking skills and paladin dialogue issues. Note that barbarians (and fighters? My brain's gone mushy) can take intimidate for 1 skill point, rogues get 1-point access to all talking skills, and bards have 1-point access to diplomacy and bluff.

I still think that a Bard/Sorc is a bad idea. A sorc flat-out needs levels. Taking a look at the spell tables in the manual, a lvl 19 sorc gets 4 lvl 9 spells. Seems powerful, right? Well a lvl 20 sorc gets 6 lvl 9 spells per day, and knows 3 spells of that level instead of just two.

I undestand why SD's got that character 2 put together, but at heart I'm a two-class bomber. Pure and simple, that character is put together for HoF melee, and I like to maximize the potential of my casting classes for casting.

I like druids as backup (or backup-backup) tanks in the early going as well as spellbombers. One build that's worked for me is a human with 3 lvls of Barb, 4 lvls of Fighter, and all or most of the rest (at least 20, of course) in druid - rogue is also a reasonable mix-in. Powergaming stats would look something like 18/16/18/3/18/3; the downside of course is that this build will have to steal some skill points from concentration to get a decent spellcraft for the elemental feats at a fairly early stage. Feats therefore should be combat casting, GSF:transmutation, GSF:evocation, Scion of Storms, Spirit of Flame, weapon specialization (I like polearm for Nine/Twelve Paces and the +4 Ice Spear from Battle Squares), and perhaps the standard tanker damage feats (Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Crit). Take a level of druid first, a level of Barb early, and then the rest in druid until HoF, unless you're really hurting for feats.

Mix-ins for a cleric of Tempus are not too difficult if you conceptualize the character as a caster that doubles as a damage-dealing tank. Number one, you want Ftr4 for weapon specialization in Axe. Adding a blunt specialization and Maximized Attacks is viable, too. Wizard isn't worth it, as it makes for stat allocation problems and this character likely won't have a good enough AC for mirror image, blink etc to be all that effective in HoF. Barb is a good choice, for HP and movement, and it's also from the best (warrior) BAB grouping. Rogue is ok, since it'll give Evasion (one of my favourite class abilities) and a bit of sneak attack damage. This type of character works well with a damage-soaking decoy/tank. The decoy takes the hits (or doesn't ), and the second tank deals the damage. Even on HoF, this type of character isn't a major loss, because when Hasted (think 5 attacks/round) with a keen 2-handed axe, Improved Critical, Power Attack, Champion's Strength and Executioner's Eyes, it'll do boatloads of damage. It also gets monster summoning as higher level domain spells, which isn't too bad. Character race is a tough call here. Dwarf is ideal for toughness/saves and half-orc is ideal for Str potential, but both races will be vulnerable to XP penalties since the major class is cleric. I wouldn't really recommend drow for this build, as the ECL penalty causes early problems for healers, and you want a high Con in case this character is targeted. Race options are to take a human, take a drow and live with the ECL penalty, take a dwarf or half-orc and live with the XP penalty, or scale back mix-ins to lessen or remove the XP penalty.

So if you took my recommendations and went with the Bard, Druid, and Battleguard builds above, along with a Pally2/Sorc and SD's Ftr/Barb/Rogue/Wiz character 1, that leaves one spot. It's a tough call for me between a secondary cleric or primary wizard.

[Aerich]

Crud, I just realized that Open Locks is a cross-class skill for a bard. Either take a couple of rogue levels early with a bard, or just take pick pockets instead and let another character get the scouting, de-trapping, and lockpicking - or just bash. The idea of a full-on bardic support character still works fine.

[silverdragon72]

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a few words on my PC2 build...

...the idea was a multi-purpose build:

- back-up divine caster, mainly buffs and heal / mass heal (no offensive spell casting -> no spells that allow saves!) Btw. you can even start with WIS 8 to 10 getting +9 WIS automatically (every gods ring +5 WIS & 2x bane quest +2 WIS)!

- high level AC (72 or at least close to 72) that just gets hit on a 20 or on maximum 75% chance of the first attack of the enemie (BAB -5 on each attack after the first)

- enough spec. wiz levels and INT (14 for an extra MI) to get as many MI as possible and 2 L3 spells (blink and/or blur)

- capable of dealing tons of damage in normal AND in HOF! Therefore fighter feats and divine self-buffs!

- immune to magic (Drow, evasion, MI)

- as scout or for taking out critical targets in a team with PC1 (both sneak attack, sneak skills and extra speed)!


For a party of 4 this build could be skipped, but for a party of 5 or 6 it's just to powerfull not to have! (And btw. there are enough battles where you need at least 3 or 4 front-line-capable builds!)

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[silverdragon72]

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Don't understand why you all have such a trouble with skills and support:

just take the bard/druid build and maxime all other builds on what they really need!

The bard druid build is really fun to play, just keeping out of all melee action, singing, summoning, healing and hugging some trees while the rest of your party does what they do best! Protected with MI, blink and blur (bard) she can even stand melee combat for some time!

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[Klorox]

Alright gang, here's what I came up with when I was offline last night. I'm going to give it a try soon, and we'll just have to see where it takes me.

PC1: Deep Gnome Pal3/Rog3/Ftr4/Illusionist20
STR 16 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 5 CHA 1
This character has been detailed elsewhere. The reason for choosing DG instead of Drow is that yes, I want the AC bonus, as well as a few other perks. It's also nice to have a character who can hit that 72 AC mark.

PC2: Female Drow Ftr4/Rog3/Monk3/Transmuter5/Dreadmistress15
STR 11 DEX 20 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 18 CHA 5
A virtual clone of SD's #2 character, with slightly different stats and Transmuter instead of Wizard levels.

PC3: Human Bard11/Sorc19
STR 10 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 18 WIS 4 CHA 18
This is my diplomat, loremaster, and a very good blaster as well. Levels will go: Bard 1, Sorcerer 19, Bard 11.

PC4: Aasimar Pal2/Sorc28
STR 10 DEX 14 CON 18 INT 12 WIS 6 CHA 20
This is my main blaster. Paladin levels will be taken sometime in Chapter 2 or 3, after a decent repitoire of spells are learned.

PC5: Deep Gnome Battlemaster24/Illusionist6
STR 16 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 12 WIS 17 CHA 1
This is my tank/cleric. The Illusionist levels will not be added until HoF mode, after all 20 levels of Cleric. They give this one a fighting chance against hordes of HoF monsters.

PC6: Human Drd20/Rng2/Ftr2/Monk3/Dreadmaster3
STR 16 DEX 18 CON 18 INT 3 WIS 18 CHA 3
This is my Druid (yay!). The mix ins will be only 1 level at the beginning (except Monk, which waits until HoF, if I take it at all) for their individual bonuses (Rng adds class skills, archery, and dual-weilding, Ftr is there for more feats, Clr is for the Dreadmaster bonus, and Monk is for AC bonus when shapeshifted). I'm not using any shapeshifting mods here.


The party is extremely magic-intensive, yet 4 out of the 6 are impressive melee types (in regular mode anyway). If I were to take Pal levels first for PC4, that'd be another melee character for the first chapter.

[Aerich]

It seems that you've set your sights on PCs 1-4. I persist in my opinion that a sorc/bard is not ideal, but any character is playable. Note that the sorc/bard has too much Int. Put a couple more points in Con.

I'm not in favour of the Battleguard/Illusionist. First, it suffers a 3 ECL penalty, which is a bad thing to have for a primary cleric. Think gaining access to Heal three levels later. Number two, it's not great from a powergamer's perspective, because it's not optimized for damage dealing or spellcasting. A high level Battleguard is a damage-dealing tank with all-party-and-self buffs, and a few levels of deep gnome illusionist smacks of a decoy role (less BAB, less Str). Putting the two together hurts both builds, IMO, as neither role can have its potential maximized. SD's character 2 build is predicated on having a clerical "specialist" to cover off more of the general divine magic needs, and this character may have a harder time doing that than other builds.

I'm not sure that I like the 2 Ranger levels in the druid build. Four levels of fighter might be better. This character won't be tanking much in HoF with or without the shapeshift mod, so why dual-wielding? You have all the archer skills you need with one feat (Rapid Shot) and one fighter level (Martial Weapon:Bows). Why three levels of Dreadmaster for the Wis bonus? One, or maybe 2 to avoid an XP penalty, should be sufficient. Note that the early mix-ins will hurt this character as a spellcaster. I'd rather have a lvl 9 druid than a Ftr1/Rgr1/Cl1/Druid6. A high Str druid shines in normal casting damage spells on meleers attacking a defensive tank (e.g. one with MR and evasion) and finishing up with a two-handed weapon.

Overall, the party is definitely playable, but I still believe that you've got too many characters trying to be good at too many things. Ultimate AC isn't necessary even in HoF for more that a couple of characters. Good tactical placement, spell selection, and Concentration scores, along with a bit of in-game running, are more valuable to a caster than a couple of mirror images. No party builds can make up for bad tactics, just as good tactics can cover the weaknesses of flawed parties.