KUPP (Klorox's Ultimate Powergaming Party)

Crucis · Post by **Crucis** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:22 am

Why 2 characters with Pal 2? I can understand the desire to take a single level of pally for the Divine Grace adding of CHA bonus to saves, but why does a party need 2 characters with the Aura of Courage?

And for that matter, why 2 pally levels (or even 1) with the morninglord? Are you going to be giving this cleric enough CHA to get some real benefit from Divine Grace CHA bonus adds to saves? I don't see the real benefit of adding 2 pally levels to this particular character, with the possible exception of being able to wield the HA.

OTOH, I can see the benefit of adding 2 pally levels to the sorc. It's not something I'd do, but there is a good enough powergaming reason for doing so.

To be honest, I find these uber-multiclass mixes really boring. I don't see the appeal of taking 4 or 5 different classes in a character. And I don't like being overly cheesey by taking only 1-2 levels of a bunch of characters just to get each class' early class benefits.

I like being able to come up with a reason, a description for why my character multiclasses. Like a rogue who is sort of ninja-ish and has some ninja-like abilities might take some mage levels to emulate those effects. Or perhaps a barb x/ftr 4 might be a barb who has a bit more formal weapons training than your average barb. Or the good-aligned rogue X/ftr 4 is a swashbuckler.

But to each his own.

Jelaweb · Post by **Jelaweb** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:02 am

Character 1 will now be a Deep Gnome. I'm very interested in haveing an AC 72 decoy type, and the Drow can't reach that.

Yes they can.

Oh yes Klorox, if you cannot seem to get through the game, you can:
1) Save the game
2) Note down total party XP
3) Note down all the items they have
4) Get the item codes for the items you have
Optional:
5) Note down number of monsters killed
6) Note down time in party (using NI or DLTCEP)

When you have this information, you can hack your own level x characters and replace them in the savegame!

I can see the benefit of adding 2 pally levels to the sorc. It's not something I'd do

I agree - sorcerers rarely get hit by spells and therefore rarely need "super" saving throws. However, the other uses for those Paladin levels are:
1) Less need for Remove Fear in the party
2) No need for Remove Disease on the character - if you've ever been hit by Contagion, you know this can be useful

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:34 am

Nice idea playing the prologue without a diplomat. I'm sure the diplomatic skills are more important for the snakes and wolves out there than for the inhabitants of Targos where half of the game's diplomatic checks will take place.

I recommend staying flexible and not planning everything beforehand. You can still decide where to put the last few levels when your characters have reached level 25.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:39 pm

Crucis: I like the idea of two fellas with Aura of Courage because one of them (if the party is separated) will be in melee and the other in the back chucking spells. The two Auras should cover the whole party.

The Morninglord has a 15 starting CHA (and will wear a Wolf Hat). Even if I only take 1 level of Paladin, that's 1 level away from Cleric for three feats (Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude).

Also, this is a powergaming, not a roleplaying party. I know a lot of dipping into other classes is cheesy.

Jelaweb, two things:

1)As cheesy a powergamer I am, I'm not a cheater. I'd get a much better sense of accomplishment by going from beginning to end with the same party.

2)I wasn't very clear with my decoy comment. But if you can find a way for both characters 1 and 2 to reach a 70+ AC, without #1 being a Deep Gnome, I'd consider changing it (and by all mean, LMK).

kmonster, that's some good advice. As I said in my post yesterday, I've got to KISS it (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I think I'll be leaning towards an even "simpler" party than the one I've posted above. Stay tuned!

BTW, I played through Targos, and got every dialogue option I've ever gotten with an Aasimar Sorc and a 20 CHA.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:14 pm

In the interestes of KISS, I'm giving a go at a new, simpler party (lots of differences here):

Character 1: LE Deep Gnome Monk 30
S:16 D:20 C:14 I:3 W:20 Ch:1
This character fills the decoy role perfecty, and level-ups are simple.

Character 2: LG Drow female Paladin 1/Cleric of Lathander 29
S:16 D:20 C:16 I:5 W:18 Ch:5
This character concentrates on spellcasting. Is a good tank in normal mode, and a very good one in HoF if I go with the mix ins (detailed next). If I start getting adventurous (and I probably will), levels could be added in Ftr(2), Rng(1), Monk(1), and Rog(1). This would result in a second decoy in HoF. Again, Pal and Clr only for regular mode.

Character 3: LG Aasimar Paladin 1/Sorcerer 29
S:10 D:14 C:18 I:12 W:6 Ch:20
My heavy artillery. Pal level is added before quest, and only then. Will concentrate on Fire & Lightning elements.

Character 4: N Human Bard 5/Sorcerer 25
S:10 D:12 C:18 I:14 W:4 Ch:18
This is my diplomat/blaster. Will start as a Bard 1, then add exclusively Sorcerer levels. In HoF, I'll add the final 4 Bard levels. Will concentrate on Fire and Acid elements. There's still the possibility that I'll split the levels Bard 11/Sorc 19, but I'm not sure yet, and that decision is way off.

Character 5: NE Drow male Rogue 1/Transmuter 29
S:11 D:20 C:16 I:20 W:8 Ch:5
This is my loremaster, thief, and a great 3rd arcane blaster. It's been detailed many times before how a high INT character with only 1 level of Rogue can handle the thiefly duties very well. I could change the specialty, but I probably won't. There's a pretty good benefit for Transmuters which is hard to pass up, and I don't mind missing out on a few spells when there are two Sorcerers in the party.

Character 6: CN female Drow Druid 19/Cleric of Tempus 11
S:18 D:18 C:16 I:5 W:18 Ch: 5
This is my Druid, and quite a formidable tank in regular mode. This character will start as a Cleric of Tempus (I like the Axe feat), and then be exclusively a Druid, until level 19 is reached. I figure a Druid tops out about there (I could go to level 20, or stop at level 17, it's not set in stone), and I may as well take advantage of another class. The Druid gets a 4th level 9 spell at level 20, gets her first level 9 spell at 17, and since new spell levels are gained at odd character levels, I'm leaning towards an odd division of levels.

You guys have all been wonderful so far, and I look forward to some advice on this simpler party. TIA

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:27 pm

Character 1 is fine. Monks are great, as long as you buff them enough. With two sorcs and a druid, you will have fun casting damage spells into the front line. I recommend Lightning Reflexes ASAP to help with evasion, even with a high Dex. Cat's Grace is also a buff with dual benefits (AC + saves/better evasion) for this character. Aside from the buffing requirements, monks are low maintenance once you baby them past the first few levels.

Character 2 is fine. We could go back into the debate of 1 Pally level or 2, and it's interesting that you argued for Aura of Courage in the post prior, then posted a party that will not even get one (needs 2 levels of Paladin). If you want to make it a decoy in HoF, I'd recommend two levels of rogue so that you get evasion.

Character 3 is fine, subject to the Aura of Courage comments above.

Character 4 is fine. Even with two sorcs, I still like this build better than Bard11/Sorc19. I'd also suggest that this one take GSF: Enchantment if the other sorc focuses on blasting. Enchantment spells are one of potentially four keys to beating HoF that don't involve thousands of evocation spells (others are summons, ultimate AC builds, and instant-kill spells).

Character 5 is somewhat doubtful. First, the transmuter benefit isn't so good that I'd take a transmuter just to get it. Your sorcs won't be focusing on Abjuration spells, which this character cannot cast, and those include all the elemental protection spells as well as Dispel Magic. If your cleric gets be-spelled, who's going to cast Dispel? You will also take a big XP hit, since a drow male's favoured class is Wizard, not specialist wizard. I also prefer my rogues to be higher than lvl 1; not only do they gain evasion at lvl 2, which can save a lot of damage, but I find it a pain to have to buff up with spells and/or potions just to disarm a trap. If you take a level of rogue later in the game you can put more than 1 skill point into key rogue skills like Disable Device, Search, and Open Locks and ignore Hide, Move Silently, and Pick Pockets.

Character 6 is fine. It will be difficult to allocate skill points between Concentration and Spellcraft, which is why I like a human for low-Int druid builds. Scion of Storms is a great feat for this character, as is Spirit of Flame. GSF: Transmutation is far more valuable for a druid than for an arcane caster, and GSF: Evocation is useful if you play this character as a bomber instead of a transmuter specialist/summoner.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:46 pm

My mistake, Character 2 would get 2 Paladin levels. Monk class grants her Evasion, so a second Rogue level isn't needed.

Character 5 I thought would be fine as a specialist. If not, I'll play him as a Deep Gnome and choose Illusion. Sounds like Transmutation isn't the way to go... thanks for that advice Aerich.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:34 pm

You're welcome. I think you'll have more fun with a simpler party, since you can focus on just playing instead of milking every last advantage possible.

Don't get hung up on specialization. You have two sorcs, which are essentially specialized wizards anyway. The role for any rogue/wizard type combo is to be able to cast anything that the others can't and to fill in skills so that the rest of the party doesn't have to think about them. A DG rogue2/illusionist is going to be very slow levelling as a caster, as well. A drow is bad enough in this position. The difference between 1 ECL and 2 is large, and worse between 2 and 3.

I believe illusionists also have abjuration as an opposition school, as well as necromancy, so you'd be no better off with a rogue/illusionist build.

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:11 am

As far as I know (and I've played a transmuter/bard) there is no xp penalty for a drow specialist wizard.

claudius

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:50 am

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ok, at least better than v.2 and v.3, but still not that effective...

PC1: is just a decoy and (in HOF only a decoy) and therefore weak, don't understand why you won't take the PC1 build described in my thread that could reach a AC72+ easily! - (No matter if drow or not, just a question of how you allocate some items and I prefer having two or three builds quite close to AC72, especially if they have access to buffs, then just one having AC72+)

PC2: good choice, beside that L25 is enough, therefore I would spend the remaining levels to Pal2 and Monk3

PC3: as already said, a 2nd Pal level, and same as above: 3 monk levels optional!

PC4: if you really want a 2nd sorc, copy paste PC3

PC5: overkill, a non spec back-up caster is a good decision, but you start running out of melee capability - there are enough battles getting attacked from two sides or more sides, even getting in a pocket or worst getting seperated...

...and also enough battles with no chance to cast any pre-buffs or do any pre-battle summoning...-...and even combination of both...

...so I would strongly recommend more then one high level AC build!

PC6: why do you try to avoid the bard / druid build at all cost?!!

.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:43 pm

silverdragon72 wrote:.

ok, at least better than v.2 and v.3, but still not that effective...

PC1: is just a decoy and (in HOF only a decoy) and therefore weak, don't understand why you won't take the PC1 build described in my thread that could reach a AC72+ easily! - (No matter if drow or not, just a question of how you allocate some items and I prefer having two or three builds quite close to AC72, especially if they have access to buffs, then just one having AC72+)

PC2: good choice, beside that L25 is enough, therefore I would spend the remaining levels to Pal2 and Monk3

PC3: as already said, a 2nd Pal level, and same as above: 3 monk levels optional!

PC4: if you really want a 2nd sorc, copy paste PC3

PC5: overkill, a non spec back-up caster is a good decision, but you start running out of melee capability - there are enough battles getting attacked from two sides or more sides, even getting in a pocket or worst getting seperated...

...and also enough battles with no chance to cast any pre-buffs or do any pre-battle summoning...-...and even combination of both...

...so I would strongly recommend more then one high level AC build!

PC6: why do you try to avoid the bard / druid build at all cost?!!

.

SD, I'm trying to come up with my own party, not copy yours and have a go at it.

Anyway, I've modified my party slightly. It's still pretty simple:

Character #1: LG Deep Gnome Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Paladin 3/Illusionist 20
S: 16 D: 20 C: 14 I: 18 W: 5 Ch: 1
The is my decoy/tank/scout character. He handles all of the thieving skills, and is a backup wizard (he's the only character who can scribe scrolls in this party). With a plethora of extra feats, he should cover a lot of roles. Will increase DEX almost every time, and INT once (for the 9th level spells).
Important Skills: Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Search, Open Locks, Concentration, Spellcraft.
Important Feats: Expertise, Dodge, WS: Large Sword, Armored Arcana (x3), Improved Critical, Maximized Attacks, Dash, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting.

Character #2: LE Deep Gnome Monk 30
S: 16 D: 20 C: 14 I: 3 W: 20 Ch: 1
This is my other decoy/tank/scout character. She should be nigh-unhittable in the game, and deal out a significant amount of damage in melee. I'm considering swapping STR and CON scores. Will increase WIS every 4 levels.
Important Skills: Hide & Move Silently.
Important Feats: Dodge, Dirty Fighting, Weapon Finesse (this works with fists, right?), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical, Lightning Reflexes.

Character #3: CN Human Druid 19/Cleric (Tempus) 11
S: 18 D: 16 C: 18 I: 3 W: 18 Ch: 3
This is my Druid. He'll start the game as a Battleguard, and after the 1st level will exclusively level-up as a Druid (I like the axe feat to start). The 10 other Battleguard levels will be added in HoF, because a Druid basically tops out after 19 or 20 levels. Will increase both STR and WIS every 4 levels.
Important Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft (stop at 14), Wilderness Lore.
Important Feats: GSF: Evocation, GSF: Transmutation, Spirit of Flame, Scion of Storms, Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting.

Character #4: LG Human Cleric (Lathander) 24/Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Monk 1/Ranger 1
S: 14 D: 12 C: 14 I: 3 W: 18 Ch: 15
This is my primary healer, and serves as a pretty good blaster with her domain spells. She can serve as a decent tank in regular mode, but is better as a reserve in that role. All stat increases go to WIS, and CHA will be boosted with a Wolf Hat. She will take 2 levels as a Paladin in regular mode, and all other levels as a Morninglady. If I decide on the other mix-ins detailed above, they won't be added until late in HoF. If not, the extra levels will go into Cleric.
Important Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft (stop at 14). Considering Hide/Move Silently after that.
Important Feats: GSF: Evocation, Spirit of Flame, Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting, Lightning Reflexes.

Character #5: LG Human Paladin 2/Sorcerer 28
S: 10 D: 18 C: 18 I: 4 W: 8 Ch: 18
This is my main bomber. The Paladin levels are added late in regular mode, to take advantage of Paladin quest. All stat increases go to CHA. Will consider adding Rogue 1 very late in HoF for CHA-boosting item.
Important Skills: Concentration & Spellcraft
Important Feats: GSF: Evocation, GSF: Necromancy, Spirit of Flame, Scion of Storms, Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting.

Character #6: N Human Bard 11/Sorcerer 19
S: 8 D: 10 C: 18 I: 18 W: 4 Ch 18
This is my diplomat, loremaster, and backup bomber. He will start as a Bard 11, then go to Sorcerer exclusively. All stat increases go to CHA.
Important Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft (stop at 6), Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Knowledge: Arcana, Alchemy.
Important Feats: Bullheaded, GSF: Evocation, GSF: Enchantment, Spirit of Flame, Aqua Mortis, Lingering Song, Subvocal Casting.

The party seems pretty complete to me. As you can see, I've leaned more towards humans for this party, as it'll allow me a little more freedom with skills and ability points.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:34 pm

AFAIK weapon finesse doesn't work with fists.

For character 4 I recommend lowering cha. The paladin saving throw bonus for cha doesn't help much, will saves will be perfect because of the high wisdom anyway, fortitude saves will also be perfect (+2 for con, +14 for 24 cleric levels, +4 for 2 paladin levels, + ..., + other protections like the PfE spells).
So only the bonus to reflex saves does actually help, but raising dex does the same, also increases AC and ranged thac0 and allows taking the "rapid shot" feat which might become very useful later since this character won't do that well on the frontline in HoF mode and keeping the healer safe is recommended.
Str, dex and con are far more useful than cha for this character.

But for the party balance it might even be beneficial if this character isn't that strong.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:40 am

It should do fine. However, I still believe that at certain points in the game you may regret using an illusionist rather than a wizard as your backup arcane caster. Whether the extra spell/level is worth it is something you will have to determine for yourself.

Weapon finesse will not work with fists unless you have the Weimar mod.

I would be inclined to skip Armored Arcana with Char 1. Buy the ring that allows you to cast Mage Armor and take a GSF and Great Fortitude instead.

I also note that you don't have Pick Pockets covered in your party. The Lucky Knucky receives a serious upgrade in HoF, and is well worth grabbing.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:41 am

.

@Klorox: you asked for help, but you seem to be a little resistant to recommendations

I understand that everyone wants to build his own "ultimate" party, but why take builds that are clearly worse than existing ones? Just call it a HOF-party and everything is fine, but "ultimate"...?!!

If the party would be equal or at least nearly close to, ok fine - but my impression is that you go one step ahead and than two steps back each time you create a new party...

...and KUPP v.1 is still your best party so far, not perfect but compared to the later ones...

...just play the game and HOF once with any party, no matter if ultimate or not and than start thinking about something really ultimate...

...the latest version is so flawed in many minor points from my point of view, that I won't give any more recommendations on this one...

...happy hunting!

.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:22 pm

Flawed, perhaps, but very playable and not too complicated. However, the first step is to get him through the normal game.

I've also come to the conclusion that Klorox has certain builds that he wants to try out, and the best way to get him playing instead of agonizing is to point out the good features and not be too critical.

I don't know that I've ever created or planned a party that I could call ultimate. They all seem to be missing something, somewhere, whether it's skills, spells, or melee ability. Competency is certainly not ultimate.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:53 pm

Character 1 is taking Pick Pockets also, I just forgot to list it.

The reason he's getting Armored Arcana is because I want him using a shield as well. Also, the Monk will want that Ring of Mage Armor (how long does it last, BTW?).

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:47 pm

that ring is dissapointing it lasts 1 hour. But you can have another caster put a mage armor spell on you.

claudius

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:07 pm

What do you expect from a Prologue pick-up? One hour of game time is a lot of combat rounds, and the 1.5 K gold or so is a lot cheaper than three feats. Just use it until you can find some decent bracers.

As far as taking Armored Arcana just to use a shield, why not have a no-shield combination in one of your weapon slots and switch to it when you want to cast a spell? This character's mostly going to be a buffer and a one-spell-and-attack melee caster, anyway. I'd hesitate to rely on it as a significant offensive caster because a) you have a sorc to do that, with another on the way for HoF b) rogue and warrior levels as well as the ECL penalty slow down level advancement, and c) you have no GSF feats.

Mage Armor can be taken by a Bard, and is actually one of the better bardic spells available at spell lvl 1.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:20 pm

Aerich wrote:What do you expect from a Prologue pick-up? One hour of game time is a lot of combat rounds, and the 1.5 K gold or so is a lot cheaper than three feats. Just use it until you can find some decent bracers.

As far as taking Armored Arcana just to use a shield, why not have a no-shield combination in one of your weapon slots and switch to it when you want to cast a spell? This character's mostly going to be a buffer and a one-spell-and-attack melee caster, anyway. I'd hesitate to rely on it as a significant offensive caster because a) you have a sorc to do that, with another on the way for HoF b) rogue and warrior levels as well as the ECL penalty slow down level advancement, and c) you have no GSF feats.

Mage Armor can be taken by a Bard, and is actually one of the better bardic spells available at spell lvl 1.

I won't be taking Armored Arcana for a while... there are many more important feats on my list. Mage Armor will be taken by my Bard, but I'll probably choose Grease, Charm Person and Chromatic Orb first. Maybe Sleep as well.