HoF Roleplaying party

[mr_sir]

Firstly, I'd like to point out that I don't want to make an ultimate powergaming party or anything like that, rather a roleplaying party that will cope with HoF.

For a bit of background, my main PC is going to be either the daughter or the grand-daughter of my main PC in my HoF game in Icewind Dale 1. She is following in her mother's footsteps and is also a Paladin. She's also an Aasimar.

This is my initial thoughts for the build for my main PC:

Paladin of Helm/Fighter (probably about 20 level of Paladin and 10 of Fighter)
Strength: 15
Dexterity: 8
Constitution:15
Intelligence:8
Wisdom: 16
Charisma: 18

At level 4, add 1 point to Strength
At level 8, add 1 point to Constitution
At level 12, add 1 point to Charisma
At level 16, add 1 point to Charisma
At level 20, add 1 point to Strength
At level 24, add 1 point to Strength
At level 28, add 1 point to Strength

I'm still undecided about feats
All skill points will go into Diplomacy
I will start by getting to level 3 Paladin then subsequently I will go 1 Fighter and then 1 Paladin until Fighter is at level 10 then it will be just Paladin again.

I will have 6 characters in my party, but this is just my thoughts for the party leader. The other characters will probably be a Fighter/Thief, a Cleric, a Druid, a Thief/Fighter and a Sorceror (but these are open to change)

Any ideas about this party would be appreciated. All party members will be mystical/planar beings (i.e. Aasimars, Tieflings or one of the Elf subraces). This is not up for discussion as I prefer to roleplay in these kind of games rather than just powergame. The Sorceror will most likely be a Chaotic Good Drow, the Fighter will most likely be a Tiefling, as will the Thief, the Cleric will probably be an Aasimar and the Druid will most likely be a Wood Elf.

Thanks in advance.

[kmonster]

Don't exspect to reach level 30, the average party level will be about 16-17 at the end of normal and 26-27 at the end of HoF mode.
And it's more important how the characters are during the game than at the end.

For the paladin I'd only 4 or 6 fighter levels. You don't need so many feats.
14 wis is already perfect for this character, I'd spend the other two points for a more useful stat.

As for feats: power attack, cleave, heroic inspiration and dodge are the first 4 feats I'd take, you can specialize in longsword for the "holy avenger" if you want her to fight defensively with shield, but greatswords, greataxes or halberds do far more damage during the first 90 percent of the game.
Tanking in HoF mode won't work very well since enemies will nearly always hit (unlike in IWD1 HoF mode). You might consider using a throwing weapon then and sending summons into melee instead.

As long as you have a sorc and cleric in your party you should be able to beat the game without too serious trouble.
But a sorcerer alone doesn't get all spells, I'd add transmuter levels to one of your tieflings to get a back-up arcane caster.

[mr_sir]

Ok, thanks for the info.

My revised Paladin is:

Paladin/Fighter (3 level Paladin then alternate between the two until 6 levels of Fighter)

Strength:15
Dexterity:10
Constitution:15
Intelligence:8
Wisdom:14
Charisma:18

After 4 levels I will increase Strength to 16, after 8 levels I will increase Constitution to 16. From then on I will increase Charisma and/or Strength.

All skill points will go into Diplomacy.
First 5 feats will be Power Attack then Cleave, then Heroic Inspiration and Dodge, then Greater Cleave.

Still undecided as to what weapon to specialise in, but probably longsword for the roleplay aspect of getting the Holy Avenger. I will also put some points into Bow or Crossbow but my Fighter/Thief and my Thief/Fighter will be my primary archers. The Druid and Cleric will use summons as well as other spells (Cleric mainly buffing spells), and my Sorceror will focus on offensive power. I'll also give my Thief/Fighter a few levels in Transmuter. I'll post their builds properly when I have planned them out a bit more.

[Crucis]

mr_sir, for starters, good for you on the roleplaying party.

As for this character, why starting with 15 STR/15 CON? Why not 16 STR/14 CON, or the reverse? By starting at 15/15, you are losing an extra HP/level for a while and a slightly lower Fort save *AND* you are losing 1 HP of damage in melee, and some carrying capacity. I'd suggest picking STR or CON and going with 14/16 or 16/14. (Personally, I'd pick STR, but either would be OK.)

I'm not really sure that adding points to CHA is a good investment of the stat adds. An 18 CHA is a nice starting value that would get you thru the game just fine.



As for feats, if you truly intend to go for at least 4 levels of fighter, you may want to specialize in longsword or greatsword. It's not critical, but some like to do it regardless.

Some feats are just about a given, like Improved Critical. If I play a Pally in HOF, I usually get around to taking Fiendslayer and Heretic's Bane. With only a +1 bonus, they are too weak for such a narrow target set, but thye're amusing to take for roleplaying reasons. Luck of Heroes is a safe bet for a human (and I think, but am not certain, that Aasimar may qualify) character.

Some people are fond of Power Attack and Cleave. Actually, I suppose that in HOF, against most normal foes, you could set Power Attack on the highest level (i.e. -5 AB for +5 damage) and still get a hit most every time.


For a ranged weapon, you might want to think about a weapon that will add STR bonus to damage, like a sling or any throwing weapon.

When you talk about having a "Fighter/Thief" and a "Thief/Fighter", what sorts of characters are these? Is one the party thief with a little of fighter tossed in to stiffen up the overall character? And is the other (the F/T) really just a somewhat dextrous fighter who can be stealthy and evade, and/or perhaps some talking skills? (I've played this sort of light fighter and they can be fun to play, particularly as a stealthy companion to a party's rogue.)


Going with a drow for the party sorc is a brave move. The -2 ECL on your sorc could be a bit painful. I prefer to stick ECL races into my non-primary spellcasting classes, usually warrior classes, where the loss of a level or 2 doesn't really hurt the character's overall power.


Good luck with this party.

[Aerich]

If you want to take Dodge with your Paladin, be warned that the pre-requisite for that feat is 13 Dex, which would require some stat re-allocation.

I can confirm that Aasimar (and Tiefling) characters can take Luck of Heroes. You might also consider Lightning Reflexes, which may help you make a few more reflex saves (the worst saving category for paladins, if I'm not mistaken).

I'm not a big fan of Greater Cleave. I suppose it could be useful up to the end of Chapter 1, but frankly I'd be surprised if you got more than half a dozen extra attacks out of it throughout the rest of the game, particularly if you are using a longsword, which has a reach of one space. A greatsword, two-handed axe, or polearm has a greater reach and thus is more effective with Cleave (as enemies must be within range of the weapon for your character to receive the extra attack). That said, I do recommend longsword and shield for a paladin tank character, because of the holy avenger and because you will need all the AC you can muster.

[mr_sir]

Ok so I've now decided to change it to the following (after reading these replies)

Female Aasimar: Paladin/Fighter (3 level Paladin then alternate between the two until 6 levels of Fighter)

Strength:16
Dexterity:10
Constitution:14
Intelligence:8
Wisdom:14
Charisma:18

After 4 levels I will increase Constitution to 15, after 8 levels I will increase Constitution to 16. From then on I will Strength.

All skill points will go into Diplomacy.
First 5 feats will be Heroic Inspiration, Luck of Heroes, Lightning Reflexes and then put 2 points in Long Sword (not necessarily in that order though)

My Tiefling Fighter/Thief will be primarily a Fighter, then with a few levels of Thief just to boost his abilities a bit (I'm thinking things like backstab would be handy, especially if I can get my hands on an Improved Invisibility spell). Not sure what main weapon yet, but she will also be competent with a bow.

I'm thinking initial stats of:

Strength 18
Dexterity 18
Constitution 18
Intelligence 4
Wisdom 18
Charisma 2

I chose these because she will have little use for skill points but will be very competent in the use of both melee and ranged attacks, plus the high wisdom and constitution are to represent the fact that she is strong willed and has high fortitude. She has little need for smooth talking or natural charisma as she communicates through her fighting skills.

[Crucis]

My Tiefling Fighter/Thief will be primarily a Fighter, then with a few levels of Thief just to boost his abilities a bit (I'm thinking things like backstab would be handy, especially if I can get my hands on an Improved Invisibility spell). Not sure what main weapon yet, but she will also be competent with a bow.

I'm thinking initial stats of:

Strength 18
Dexterity 18
Constitution 18
Intelligence 4
Wisdom 18
Charisma 2

I chose these because she will have little use for skill points but will be very competent in the use of both melee and ranged attacks, plus the high wisdom and constitution are to represent the fact that she is strong willed and has high fortitude. She has little need for smooth talking or natural charisma as she communicates through her fighting skills.

What happened to this being a roleplaying party? INT 4, CHA 2? Looks pretty powergamey to me.

[kmonster]

I played a paladin/fighter myself and specialised her in longsword early, but switched her to use greatswords after realising how great 2-handed weapons are. 2-12 instead of 1-8 damage, extra strength bonus which grew even more with bull's and champion's strength, so the missing +1 to hit and +2 damage for only being proficient didn't matter. The holy avenger you can find very late does similar damage, the HoF version even more.

Specialising in longsword isn't really useful before level 15 or so. But the other feats don't really help considerably either. 13 dex allows some useful feats, you can free 5 stat points by lowering int to 3 without consequences.

I'd specialise in a two-handed weapon (greatsword, axe, polearm) first and in longsword later. Greater cleave is indeed useless, but cleave allows some extra attacks especially in the beginning.
I recommend increasing "intimidate" when levelling up as fighter instead of saving the skill point for the paladin level up, about 15 (including cha modifier) in the diplomatic skills is already perfect.


Tieflings get at least 5 int, so you'll have to take 5 int and 1 cha for your tiefling rogue/fighter, you can interpret this as a character who looks really horribly demonic (or just ugly) while the heritage is not from a very bright demonic kind.
I'd start with rogue for the better skill point distribution at the start.
As for skills you can take concentration as prerequisite for "maximized attacks".
You can also take alchemy for "envenom wepon if you have skillpoints to spare.
With 6 int you get 2 skill points per rogue level (8 at the start) which would allow you to get those feats a little faster if you want to lower wisdom a little bit.
I'd only raise strength at level up and specialise in greatsword, axe or polearm.
High dex allows rapid shot,dodge and dirty fighting.

[Aerich]

Your thief/fighter should definitely look at a two-handed weapon. Sneak attack works even with gigantic two-handed axes in IWD2, and is applied if the enemy being attacked is not targeting the character attacking it. Thus, your thief/fighter can deal buckets of damage to enemies targeting the paladin. I favour using both a defensive tank and an offensive tank in this game. The pally is a decent defensive tank, so the second character can focus more on dealing out the hurt.

What happened to this being a roleplaying party? INT 4, CHA 2? Looks pretty powergamey to me.

I think he's been contaminated already.

[kmonster]

4 and 2 are just numbers, they don't effect how you play the game.

For the tiefling I'd also lower wisdom by 2 and increase dex by 2 instead.
You gain +1 AC, +1 AB with ranged attacks and +1 reflex saves for only -1 will save. Optimal stats are imho 18-20-18-5-16-1.

[mr_sir]

What happened to this being a roleplaying party? INT 4, CHA 2? Looks pretty powergamey to me.

No, thats the only character with stats like that. She's supposed to be a stereotypical dumb, not very charismatic person with little personalty, who has spent her whole life training to be the best warrior she can possibly be. Hence her stats.

Specialising in longsword isn't really useful before level 15 or so. But the other feats don't really help considerably either. 13 dex allows some useful feats, you can free 5 stat points by lowering int to 3 without consequences.
I recommend increasing "intimidate" when levelling up as fighter instead of saving the skill point for the paladin level up, about 15 (including cha modifier) in the diplomatic skills is already perfect.

The longsword and the Int are part of the roleplaying. I don't want her to be a character with really low intelligence. Also, the type of character she is would always look for the diplomatic approach, hence all points in diplomacy.

Tieflings get at least 5 int, so you'll have to take 5 int and 1 cha for your tiefling rogue/fighter, you can interpret this as a character who looks really horribly demonic (or just ugly) while the heritage is not from a very bright demonic kind.
I'd start with rogue for the better skill point distribution at the start.

This is not main main thief, she is purely a warrior, nothing more so she doesn't need any skill points except intimidate.
If she can have a min of 5 int then I might drop wisdom down to 16 and increase int to 6 instead (for the roleplaying aspects of it as I guess she needs some intelligence to have been able to learn her fighting skills)

[Crucis]

No, thats the only character with stats like that. She's supposed to be a stereotypical dumb, not very charismatic person with little personalty, who has spent her whole life training to be the best warrior she can possibly be. Hence her stats.

So let's look at the PHB. A CHA of 1 would have her compare to the CHA of your average zombie. And a 3 INT would have had her with just a smidge more intelligence than a dog.

With an INT of 3, she would have been spending her whole life training to tie her shoes. And her idea of an intelligent conversation would have been "Hulk Smash!"

IMHO, 6 should be about the absolute minimum for any PC's INT.

And at some point, just being really uncouth is probably not going to get below a 6 either.


I realize that INT and CHA for many characters have little impact on game play, particularly if you're not a spellcaster or a talker. But if you're going to claim to roleplay a party, stats that low come off as nothing more than powergaming. Sorry.


Looking forward to seeing the rest of the party.

[mr_sir]

IMHO, 6 should be about the absolute minimum for any PC's INT.

And at some point, just being really uncouth is probably not going to get below a 6 either.

Hmmm, good point - I never really thought of it like that

How about:

Strength 18
Dexterity 16
Constitution 18
Intelligence 6
Wisdom 14
Charisma 6

Would that make more sense?

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Not too bad, mr-sir. I'm praying what I'll say will come to at least some benefit.

As far as your Aasimar Paladin/Fighter's stats go, I'd say that would work, but here's my suggestions as far as ability scores:
16 Strength
10 Dexterity
16 Constitution
10 Intelligence
12 Wisdom
16 Charisma

The way you wish to allocate stats by level-up, IMO, sound decent enough, though with the items I've gotten in the past, I'm not sure if I'd worry about Charisma as much as Strength and Constitution. The main reason I suggest 10 intelligence is not only to ensure maximum points in Diplomacy, but also a few points in Concentration if you ever find yourself casting what spells you'll have in battle. If Concentration isn't a big deal, I'd say go ahead with 8 Int and put what doesn't go into Int into something else.

I've found in the past that 16 Charisma is sufficient early on for using skills like Diplomacy, and possibly Intimidate with a Paladin/Fighter.


As far as your Tiefling Fighter/Rogue, I'd say go ahead and lower Charisma to the minimum you can. I mean, if your Tiefling's not supposed to be a user of any dialogue skills, then why give them anything above the minimum? Intelligence, I don't know what to say. If you want to have ranks in Hide and Move Silently, okay, maybe 6 Intelligence. I don't know what to say.

I've done that alot of times with a Half-Orc Barbarian because he's suppose to be nothing but an ultra-surly rebel-with-a-cause whose actions speak louder than his words.

[Klorox]

The main reason I suggest 10 intelligence is not only to ensure maximum points in Diplomacy, but also a few points in Concentration if you ever find yourself casting what spells you'll have in battle. If Concentration isn't a big deal, I'd say go ahead with 8 Int and put what doesn't go into Int into something else.

There's no difference in skill points between a 1 and an 11 INT. It's something I'm not too big a fan of, but it's worth either choosing a 12 or higher INT or just poaching it for all it's worth.

BTW, I recommend a 3 INT for a Paladin/Fighter. You don't need any skills really, but may as well increase Diplomacy. Since you'll got to Fighter 4, 4 points in Concentration isn't a bad idea though, for a feat to take down the line.

If you want better "balanced" and "realistic" stats, then you don't need to min/max and powergame too much. But you'll have a tough time in HoF mode.

[mr_sir]

I've found in the past that 16 Charisma is sufficient early on for using skills like Diplomacy, and possibly Intimidate with a Paladin/Fighter.

I was thinking more of the benefits to a Paladin that high Charisma gives as most of their extra stuff seems to be linked to Charisma.

[Crucis]

Hmmm, good point - I never really thought of it like that

How about:

Strength 18
Dexterity 16
Constitution 18
Intelligence 6
Wisdom 14
Charisma 6

Would that make more sense?

It's fine. But the question that I'd ask is what sort of character is this? What sort of warrior is she? IIRC, she's supposed to be a Fighter/Rogue. But are you envisioning her wearing light or medium armor? Why the rogue levels? For talking skills or stealth skills? Or for the rogue evasion at level 2? And are you thinking of dual wielding this character?

The thing is that most fighters who are designed with maxed out STR and CON are usually plate wearing "heavy tanks". And such characters don't really get much of any value out of a DEX over 12. And many just stick with 10. Some may want eke out a 13 DEX to meet the pre-req's for the Rapid Shot and Dodge feats.

OTOH, if you are looking to create a lighter fighter who might be looking to get some stealth, etc., then there's a really good reason to want more DEX, so that you can be stealthy and wear lighter, stealthier armor.

It's just something to consider. This isn't 2e DnD where maxing out DEX is a good thing for just about any character.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. Just trying to explain that a high DEX isn't always going to be a useful thing for every "fighter".

Something else to consider is that there are no armors in IWD2 that have +3 MDB's that would be good to wear with a 16 DEX. Your options are just Chain Mail (+2 MDB) or Hide Armor (+4 MDB).

Good luck!

[mr_sir]

I was thinking of dual weilding weapons. The dexterity was more for the use of a bow as I wanted her to be a good all round fighter (good in melee and in ranged combat). The levels in thief were just an idea so that she would be able to sneak up and backstab foes by surprise, but I was thinking of using this with invisibility spells rather than the hide skill. I'm not entirely sure she will be a fighter/thief though as I was considering making her just a pure fighter.

[kmonster]

I see no roleplaying reason which requires at least 6 cha for your tiefling. 6 cha for a tiefling are like 8 cha for a human which is only a little bit different from 10 and can considered normal like 12. (Stats are 3d6 rolls)

A roll of 16 is as likely as a roll of 5, a tiefling with 3 cha is therefore as alien as an aasimar with 18 cha. You'd have the perfect counterpart for your heroine.

A human with 6 cha isn't uncommon imho, I'd give this to a shy person for example since shyness yields severe penalties in the social skills.
If you add a -2 penalty for a horn on the forehead or a rat-tail you get a tiefling with 4 cha.

But I don't want to force my opinion on you, if you think that characters who rolled 3 cha less than normal make the others run away in terror at first sight or can't speak without someone dying it's your decision.

6 is the average charisma for deep gnomes and grey dwarves by the way. I doubt that nearly every second deep gnome would make your heroine run away in disgust.



What are your roleplaying reasons for 14 wisdom ? 4 extra dex would make this character a lot stronger while 4 wisdom only yields a little saving throw bonus.

Yes, your character might be affected by a "hold person" in the first chapter and you might wish to have better will saves, but 4 wisdom only increase the saves by two, so there's a 90 percent chance that 4 extra wisdom won't change the saving throw outcome at all.

There are not many situations in the game where a will save has to be made and you'll have even protection spells for this situations later.
If +1 will saves is worth 2 stat points for you then a simple feat (iron will) is even worth 4 stat points.
For +1 will saves you can exspect 1 extra saving throw to succeed at most in the whole game, compare this to the enourmous number of extra attacks which will be blocked and extra ranged hits you'll get in with +1 dexerity.

[Crucis]

There's no difference in skill points between a 1 and an 11 INT. It's something I'm not too big a fan of, but it's worth either choosing a 12 or higher INT or just poaching it for all it's worth.

It's the price that we pay for BIS cutting the number of skill points in half in IWD2, mostly I assume due to a lack of reasons to actually use skills.

BTW, I recommend a 3 INT for a Paladin/Fighter. You don't need any skills really, but may as well increase Diplomacy. Since you'll got to Fighter 4, 4 points in Concentration isn't a bad idea though, for a feat to take down the line.

A couple of points.

1. While there is arguably some value to the Maximized Attacks feat, it is a VERY costly feat to take, since it requires that you have 3 stars (weapon specialization) in TWO weapons. That's 4 Feat points expended before you can even take the Maximized Attacks feat. That's probably not a big deal for a pure fighter. But for pally with a few fighter levels, that's probably too costly.

2. Mr_sir says that he wants to play a roleplaying party. An INT of 3 is NOT roleplaying, it's POWERGAMING!!!

If you want better "balanced" and "realistic" stats, then you don't need to min/max and powergame too much. But you'll have a tough time in HoF mode.

Oh, baloney! You can take on HOF mode with a rather traditional party with fairly reasonable stats. In no way whatsoever, do you need to min the stats of ANY character to succeed in HOF.

Success in HOF is not about having powergaming stats. It's about adjusting your tactics and spellcasting choices to adapt to the nature of HOF.