Spoiler
What exactly is originally in the ankaran sacrophagus? The mummy corpse? If so, who killed the crew of the elizabeth dane? The mummy corpse? And Jack stole the corpse towards the end and replaced it with a time bomb right?
Interpretation of ending
Interpretation of ending
There is something I don't quite get about the ending. *major spoiler*:
None of that is answered beyond a doubt in the game, but my interpretation is that Jack, possibly working with an elder vampire (maybe even Cain), set the whole thing up. This means that Jack would have killed the crew of the Dane, stolen the corpse in the process and planted the bomb there and then. Thats how I interpreted it - the whole game you are just Jack's puppet.
Speculation
we have analysed the clues in the game - which starts with the embrace of the PC and moves on through LaX's missions and in particular - the emails. Beckett, Ming, The Professor and the Thin Bloods all give clues, but when all is said and done, it is uncertain.
what is definitely known is :
Jack and Nines run the city for the anarchs
Ming and LaX are working together to take over the city
the professor was pointed to the sarcophagus, but didn't open it
Jack had been a pirate, the Dane was raided and the scene made to look like the sarc had been opened from the inside - the PC was set up to be a witness to that as somebody not involved in the politics of the city
Gary told both LaX and the Giovanni about the sarc, the sarc was stolen by the Giovanni and Ming sends her people to get it back
Ming/LaX wiped out Grout because his madness was giving him insight into what was going on
Jack rescues the PC from the park and arranges for the taxi to be waiting for the PC at the end of the blood hunt
the bomb says it's from Jack
the 'antediluvian' corpse is not animated
Beckett doesn't believe there is an antediluvian in the coffin - but at the end, he warns the PC not to open it - he (or is it shape-shifted Ming?)
the IT-networks are controlled by Gary - there is a warning not to open the box by email
E. the Thin Blood says that he doesn't want to be around 'when jack comes out of the box' - another warning not to open it
the email show that there was a 'puppet-master' commenting on developments as if it were a chess game - right from the beginning
Personally, I believe that the anarchs needed to stop Ming/LaX and decided that they needed to get LaX to accept a bomb, as with the Sheriff guarding him, he was safe in his haven. they need him to want a box reall bad! rumours of an antediluvian are started.
so - they tipped off the prof who ships the sarcophagus back on the Dane. Jack uses his pirate skills take over the ship and (having the key) opens the box, but makes it look as if something opened it from within and slaughtered the crew.
the sarc is re-locked and sent to the museum, where the Giovanni, with info from Gary, steal it - in case there is an interesting 'specimen' inside.
LaX gets the sarc back, but sans key.
LaX probably has dealings with werewolves (w-blood in the hospital mission) and uses them to try to wipe out Nines and the PC
it turns out that Ming has the key - we don't know where from or how.
because the relationship between Ming and LaX has broken down, the lock and key don't come together, but fortunately, the PC brings back the prize and...
well, LaX gets what he deserves and Jack gets to watch a firework show.
we have analysed the clues in the game - which starts with the embrace of the PC and moves on through LaX's missions and in particular - the emails. Beckett, Ming, The Professor and the Thin Bloods all give clues, but when all is said and done, it is uncertain.
what is definitely known is :
Jack and Nines run the city for the anarchs
Ming and LaX are working together to take over the city
the professor was pointed to the sarcophagus, but didn't open it
Jack had been a pirate, the Dane was raided and the scene made to look like the sarc had been opened from the inside - the PC was set up to be a witness to that as somebody not involved in the politics of the city
Gary told both LaX and the Giovanni about the sarc, the sarc was stolen by the Giovanni and Ming sends her people to get it back
Ming/LaX wiped out Grout because his madness was giving him insight into what was going on
Jack rescues the PC from the park and arranges for the taxi to be waiting for the PC at the end of the blood hunt
the bomb says it's from Jack
the 'antediluvian' corpse is not animated
Beckett doesn't believe there is an antediluvian in the coffin - but at the end, he warns the PC not to open it - he (or is it shape-shifted Ming?)
the IT-networks are controlled by Gary - there is a warning not to open the box by email
E. the Thin Blood says that he doesn't want to be around 'when jack comes out of the box' - another warning not to open it
the email show that there was a 'puppet-master' commenting on developments as if it were a chess game - right from the beginning
Personally, I believe that the anarchs needed to stop Ming/LaX and decided that they needed to get LaX to accept a bomb, as with the Sheriff guarding him, he was safe in his haven. they need him to want a box reall bad! rumours of an antediluvian are started.
so - they tipped off the prof who ships the sarcophagus back on the Dane. Jack uses his pirate skills take over the ship and (having the key) opens the box, but makes it look as if something opened it from within and slaughtered the crew.
the sarc is re-locked and sent to the museum, where the Giovanni, with info from Gary, steal it - in case there is an interesting 'specimen' inside.
LaX gets the sarc back, but sans key.
LaX probably has dealings with werewolves (w-blood in the hospital mission) and uses them to try to wipe out Nines and the PC
it turns out that Ming has the key - we don't know where from or how.
because the relationship between Ming and LaX has broken down, the lock and key don't come together, but fortunately, the PC brings back the prize and...
well, LaX gets what he deserves and Jack gets to watch a firework show.
"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players"
I have a theory about that. At the start of the game there is mention on the news of a giant foul smelling cephalapod corpse washing up on shore. Ming has the ability to turn into a giant tentacled creature that could reasonably be called a caphalapod, she is also capable of dividing into multiple such creatures. I suspect she attacked the ship in order to obtain the key and with it ensure LaX can't open the sarc without her.Celacena wrote: it turns out that Ming has the key - we don't know where from or how.
whoa yea i would agree the news about that weird sea creature is probably ming but i wouldn't know for sure how she got the key. Myself i interpretted that the strange feeling in the air since the arrival of the elizabeth dane was not caused by an "antediluvian" within the sacrophagus but by the presence of caine himself within the city, watching his childe's development.
always something new
darned sea creature - of course - just like a Mini-Ming
there is only one key and it is needed to put the explosives in the box
was that done on the Dane after it was in port? not very likely
was it done at the museum? possibly
was it done at the Giovanni's? possibly
the key goes missing, there is the massacre (key needed), the box is re-locked (key needed?)
explosives planted - key needed.
LaX/Ming to get fried? key needed.
Ming has given up on the box by the end of Hallowbrook, but will not release the key, just in case. did somebody tell her something after the alliance had been called off?
Andre says that the box should not be opened - but does he fear an antediluvian?
Caine - taxi driver - a partial plot development or really Caine? if so - is the situation that crucial to kindred everywhere?
some thoughts
darned sea creature - of course - just like a Mini-Ming
there is only one key and it is needed to put the explosives in the box
was that done on the Dane after it was in port? not very likely
was it done at the museum? possibly
was it done at the Giovanni's? possibly
the key goes missing, there is the massacre (key needed), the box is re-locked (key needed?)
explosives planted - key needed.
LaX/Ming to get fried? key needed.
Ming has given up on the box by the end of Hallowbrook, but will not release the key, just in case. did somebody tell her something after the alliance had been called off?
Andre says that the box should not be opened - but does he fear an antediluvian?
Caine - taxi driver - a partial plot development or really Caine? if so - is the situation that crucial to kindred everywhere?
some thoughts
"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players"
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brillysense
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My theory is that Jack found out about the sarc which was indeed the resting place of an ancient vampire, as demonstrated by johansen and becket, and used it against lacroix, because he knew the prince was hungry for power and wouldn't miss the chance of diablerising the ancient to gain even more power, so he could rule over the Camarilla, raided the Elizabeth Dane as any good pirate would have done, and replaced the mummy with a time bomb. It wouldn't have made sense for him giving the key to the Kuei-Jinn, for he needed that LaCroix had both the sarc and the key to bring out the "jack-in-the-box", but somehow the Kuei-Jinn caught word about the sarc and raided it and got the key. It was a genius move from Jack, and this way he would have kicked the cammies once more from LA. As of who killed the cephalopod-like-Ming, it's anyone's guess. Maybe Jack, maybe the crew from the Dane (although that seems rather unlikely) or maybe it wasn't Ming after all, although if the creature would have been natural, there were few chances for it to have perplexed the scientists studying it's corpse.
And maybe the Anarchs weren't the only ones plotting to kick the cammies out of LA. To pull this trick, they needed help to manipulate the word on the street, and for that they needed the ones who were everywhere and nowhere. That ring any bells, boss?
As of the taxi driver being Caine, that is another mystery of this game that would never be solved. I've read somewhere that it is stated in one of the Vampire books that Jack had a Malk friend who believed he was Caine. Maybe the taxi driver is indeed Caine, maybe Troika left some vague clues (Malkavian conversation with the taxi driver, sound files of the taxi driver named Caine, the ending cinematic) that made us believe that the cabbie was Caine just to fool us. After the Bloodlines ending, nothing surprises me from their part.
And maybe the Anarchs weren't the only ones plotting to kick the cammies out of LA. To pull this trick, they needed help to manipulate the word on the street, and for that they needed the ones who were everywhere and nowhere. That ring any bells, boss?
As of the taxi driver being Caine, that is another mystery of this game that would never be solved. I've read somewhere that it is stated in one of the Vampire books that Jack had a Malk friend who believed he was Caine. Maybe the taxi driver is indeed Caine, maybe Troika left some vague clues (Malkavian conversation with the taxi driver, sound files of the taxi driver named Caine, the ending cinematic) that made us believe that the cabbie was Caine just to fool us. After the Bloodlines ending, nothing surprises me from their part.
You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.
The cephalod being washed on shore probably indicated the Kuei-jin had meddled with the elizabeth dane before it came near shore. The taxi driver kept repeating "remember it is the blood of caine that marks you", that seemed like a give away clue to his identity. also the last scene when he appeared beside jack with the uber dark aura glowing about him, from those i believe he is caine.
Alright after playing through the second time my interpretatio would be like what has been said by one of you. Jack is indeed the one manipulating and pulling the strings from behind the scenes. The emails of the "chess game" that's from "a friend" likely refers to jack himself, he is the one sending the mails. Also its kind of odd he appears around and all to help out the protagonist when he/she is in trouble, he seems to know your moves very well.
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gonin
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Jack attack
Jack seems to be a master mind in this game.Here is my theory.
Ming is their to steal the key and sarchopaugus but jack (former pirate superior) comes to join in on the party. He goes crazy kills the crew and sees that one asian vampire shouldnt be their and moves in for the kill. So he beats her up until she goes all octo evil and fights back. He gives most of her the final death but one gets away with the key. Jack now sees how important this box is and hatches a plan...the only hole in my plan is he would need the key so i think between shipment from giovani and camarilla he snuck in and had some fun.
Jack seems to be a master mind in this game.Here is my theory.
Ming is their to steal the key and sarchopaugus but jack (former pirate superior) comes to join in on the party. He goes crazy kills the crew and sees that one asian vampire shouldnt be their and moves in for the kill. So he beats her up until she goes all octo evil and fights back. He gives most of her the final death but one gets away with the key. Jack now sees how important this box is and hatches a plan...the only hole in my plan is he would need the key so i think between shipment from giovani and camarilla he snuck in and had some fun.
THe duck man rises from the ashes of the mortals as he prepares his swipe at our falling world...are u ready for him?
Have you guys taken into account the computer's log on the Elizabeth Dane? IIRC it takes surprisingly high Hacking at that point in the game to crack it, and reading it isnt part of your mission. However it hints at all sorts of weird stuff happening in the ship even when it was just leaving Turkey.
For me, this likely meant that some faction, and Ming seems most likely here, was already at work. I really doubt Jack had that kind of influence outside LA, and I have doubts that the mummy, safely locked in its box, would have caused any disturbance on the ship. Of course, if its really an antedilluvian, it might be another story, but in that case, the anarch ending makes no sense. You dont keep a sleeping antedilluvian around for fun while watching a firework.
Anyhow, just my two cents. I think something happened to the sarcophagus and/or the key well before it ever reached LA.
For me, this likely meant that some faction, and Ming seems most likely here, was already at work. I really doubt Jack had that kind of influence outside LA, and I have doubts that the mummy, safely locked in its box, would have caused any disturbance on the ship. Of course, if its really an antedilluvian, it might be another story, but in that case, the anarch ending makes no sense. You dont keep a sleeping antedilluvian around for fun while watching a firework.
Anyhow, just my two cents. I think something happened to the sarcophagus and/or the key well before it ever reached LA.
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Jhereg
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Possible Spoiler
Just one thing.
In the courtroom scene - right at the beginning? You have all the primogen and most of the Anarchs in one room while you are being judged. Skelter is talking intensely to Nines. VV is flirting with Max. All is very intense.
But look at Jack. He's hanging in back having a casual smoke. Seemingly unconcerned about anything. This suggests to me that Jack might know something that nobody else knows. Nobody knows Jack.
Just one thing.
In the courtroom scene - right at the beginning? You have all the primogen and most of the Anarchs in one room while you are being judged. Skelter is talking intensely to Nines. VV is flirting with Max. All is very intense.
But look at Jack. He's hanging in back having a casual smoke. Seemingly unconcerned about anything. This suggests to me that Jack might know something that nobody else knows. Nobody knows Jack.
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." Steven K.Z. Brust, "Jhereg", ISBN 0-441-38553-2, Chapter 17, prologue.
Jolly Jack Tar
yes - I posted about Jack being Mr Cool at that point some time back. He knows that the situation is under control, but he hasn't shared that info with Nines, who gets angry.
I did once crack the log of The Dane and it was apparent that a vamp was on-board. we don't know who had been away - with flight delays etc - a vamp would be unlikely to fly commercially and a sea trip would take a long time. I suppose you could fly as cargo, if you had allies - perhaps ghouls - at the other end. Gary would find it easiest to organise something like that...
yes - I posted about Jack being Mr Cool at that point some time back. He knows that the situation is under control, but he hasn't shared that info with Nines, who gets angry.
I did once crack the log of The Dane and it was apparent that a vamp was on-board. we don't know who had been away - with flight delays etc - a vamp would be unlikely to fly commercially and a sea trip would take a long time. I suppose you could fly as cargo, if you had allies - perhaps ghouls - at the other end. Gary would find it easiest to organise something like that...
"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players"
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Jhereg
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I think it obvious that Nines was "out of the loop" as you suggest. I wonder about Skelter, though. He seems to be Nine's 'right hand'. If you want to disable somebody, what do you go after? The right hand. Classical Kung-Fu fighting technique - go for the advancing fist.Celacena wrote:yes - I posted about Jack being Mr Cool at that point some time back. He knows that the situation is under control, but he hasn't shared that info with Nines, who gets angry.
Assuming, therefore, that Skelter was a dupe, then the length of Jack's arm is Reaaaallllyy long.
An 18th century pirate? That's the part I don't really get.
All the evidence points to Jack. But an 18th century pirate? An ill-educated violent sea-monkey? Even if he's 300 years old, how is it that he can have the wherewithal to pull off such a colossal and so perfect strategy against a vampire that is much older than him? Inasmuch as I don't much like LaX, he still doesn't strike me as an idiot.
I give on the assumption that Jack was in the back. I just can't favor how he could be there. LaX was a general in Napoleon's armies - one would assume that he had a basic grasp of strategy and tactics.
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." Steven K.Z. Brust, "Jhereg", ISBN 0-441-38553-2, Chapter 17, prologue.
LaX is greedy - he just wants power and was so keen to get that power that maybe it blinded him from what was really going on.Jhereg wrote: I give on the assumption that Jack was in the back. I just can't favor how he could be there. LaX was a general in Napoleon's armies - one would assume that he had a basic grasp of strategy and tactics.
Also, just because Jack was a pirate does not mean that he couldn't possibly be intelligent. There could have been any number of reasons why he ended up as a pirate, and it doesn't automatically make him unable intellectually to devise a plan like this.
the line between 'pirate' and 'adventurer' was very blurred - providing the seaman only attacked enemies of his home country, there would have been little to distinguish between privateer, trader and pirate. it takes brains to stay alive on open water, so no reason at all why Jack should be dim.
LaX being in Napoleon's army wouldn't make him a genius either - probably talented to some degree - as promotion was largely on merit - but he may not be a schemer to the nth degree.
his ambition does blind him in any event.
LaX being in Napoleon's army wouldn't make him a genius either - probably talented to some degree - as promotion was largely on merit - but he may not be a schemer to the nth degree.
his ambition does blind him in any event.
"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players"