Your thoughts on the game

[Xschtar]

Is it only me who thinks NWN1 was actually better?

At least HotU... NWN2 was a huuuuuge disappointment for me. People had talked about it so much and I was really looking forward to playing, and I just fininshed. Some of the things I just can't get over, things that really bring down the whole experience (and I mean really):

[SPOILERS BELOW]

* The graphics are horrible! I run with everything on highest on a monster machine. The graphics aren't very good, it's waay to messy. Waaaaaaay to messy. Most of the time, in battles, I can hardly see what I'm doing or what's going on because every little fire spell makes the whole level yellow for 5 minutes and when more than 2 people are casting spells it's like a 5-year-old's first drawing - just incoherent clouds of colours everywhere. I just wish everything had been much cleaner and distinct, like in BG2 or any other similar game. In BG2 I knew a spell when I saw it... in NWN2 there are 2 billion spells and half of them are just biig couloured clouds and explosions (blue, red, yellow, green, 20 piercing damage - wohoo!).

* The animations and all the clipping errors! Oh, horror! Horror! It's awful. NWN1 was actually much better at this point. Basically, to see two people fighting in NWN2 is a nightmare. They just stand waaay to close to each other and lunge out with swords (clipping into everything in its way) in seemingly incoherent patterns. And other stuff, like "attacks of oppurtunity", just don't have animations. Damage is dealt without the character moving his weapon! Great! And the CLIPPING! The goddamn clipping. My paladin had a cloak with "melted" with his plate armor all the time and it looked horrible. Khelgar had a tower shield which "cut into" his shoulder and that also looked horrible. I had expected so much more. At least in NWN1 I enjoyed pausing the game when my Champion of Torm lashed with his Holy Avenger at a demon while a fireball was burning behind him (it really looked good!). Now if I pause the game, all I see is clipping errors and colours.

* Kind of stupid story. The more I think about it, the more stupid it gets. It was messy and incoherent and actually not very interesting. Most of the time there was no real motivation to do any of the quests in the story, the main character had no real reasons to hunt for silver shards or do a billion City Watch missions. Get to Neverwinter, but don't just walk there, visit 50 villages first! Ohh, gather the shards now! But first perform 25 missions for the City Watch totally unrelated to the story just to talk to some guy! Wait, the githyanki are coming! Kill their queen! Wait, now forget about the githyanki defend yourself in court (doesn't matter, outcome is the same... WTF?) Oh, and don't forget about the shards! Now kill the King of Shadows! Oh wait, it was just the farmer's grandfather! Ohh, look, he joins the team! I've played many games with much better story. And I really hate the lack of choice in the game. I have seldom played anything as linear. Take the castle, for example. You can do 100 different things and spend a million gold pieces on rebuilding, but it doesn't really matter anyway. In the end it's all the same. Even if you have 2 000 greycloaks, you only get 6 of them fighting with you in the "final battle", which was extremely lame. Also, in your "history feats" is says you defended your castle with a great sense of strategy and tactics. Yeah, just standing in one place and killing shadows. Great strategy. At least in NWN1: HotU you could assign squads to defend certain walls and you had archer squads and melee squads and heroes and everything. Anyone remember that? And what's up with the "ritual of whatever" you had to perform to defeat the King of Shadow? Those abilities were useless, I never used them. The "Sword of Gith" sucked! I killed the King of Shadows with a Holy Avenger and the Ironfist Hammer. It just doesn't make sense. They do this huge build-up to the King of Shadows, with him killing thousands of Githyanki and single-handedly destroying the Illefarn Empire, then you can just smash him with Khelgar for 2 minutes and now he's dead. Yeah, great! What happened to the invincible guardian?

* The combat system. Horrible, really awful. Nothing I like about it. No point in putting commands into queues since when you switch characters the others just clear their queues and run towards you anyway. And in puppet mode you have to control everybody like they are retarded or something. What's wrong with the BG2 system? Also I really dislike the "target" box you get by accidentaly clicking on something. Qara kept casting fireball and her Potion of Lore all the time. I'm not stupid, I understand the combat system, I just think it's bad. Often the characters just get stuck when following you, and sometimes they just stop following. And sometimes my spellcasters just run into melee fighting and DIE, and Elanee keeps turning into a badger as soon as we see an enemy (what is up with her and becoming a badger?). And Neeshka disables traps if you are lucky, but if an enemy shows up she stops and runs into the trap instead. Shandra is forced upon you even though she is totally uninteresting and worthless as a fighter.


* Evil/good choices - I really don't like how they implement the evil/good thing in NWN2. Most of the time it's just about choosing the evil or good quest line or killing a guy or letting him live. Where is the variety? I was a paladin and all I did was refusing rewards and letting people live. It doesn't get very dynamic that way, you know. There are very few "paths" you can take in this game, basically it's just one main path with minor choices giving you points in good or evil... it's like we still live in the 1990's. When will RPG truly become roleplaying and not interactive movies? I had hoped NWN2 would expand the borders of the RPG games, just a little. A few new ideas, a little more dynamic storyline, some steps away from the non-linear. Maybe? A little? No, not? Ok...

I was hoping to replay the game as really evil, but I really don't know if I wanna...

[Elias De vere]

Well late last night i finished the game. I ended up as a Paladin 6/ Sourcerer 1/ Red Dragon Disciple 10 / Neverwinter nine 3. i had strength of around 30 at the end, and it was fun.
First the good stuff. Contary to most people in the thread, i loved the story. I've only played as a goodguy so far, as i hate being evil. i think the story was clever, and some of the twists i didn't see coming, like the bit at the end, of which i will not spoil, unlike others. Also, I liked the variety of characters that assist you in battle. Also, the graphics i thought looked pretty good, much better than the first one. Another point is that even though combat is stupid, it's way, way more fun for the NPC's to do what they want, as it is just more fun. And, i love console stuff, makes it easier.
On the other hand, the NPC's were way too aggressive, and a bit stupid at points. Also, why no better feats for universal swords, it would make the game better in my opinion.
But, the game was excellent, and my own major problem is that i'm a habitual restarter, and i'm probably going to start another new one tonight, as i like playing as the fairer sex more, and finally, to you people who think the game is rubbish, why don't you try playing it as a simple little game and remember the first thing about it, "It's only a bloody game, get over it!"

[fable]

and finally, to you people who think the game is rubbish, why don't you try playing it as a simple little game and remember the first thing about it, "It's only a bloody game, get over it!"

Because this is a thread that asks for people's honest reactions to the game. It is not a thread that's meant only for supporters to the game. Please respect their right to have their own opinions, as they respect yours.

[Elias De vere]

Sorry, about that. I better apologise, i just get over-excited by things when things i like are given poor reviews. It's just how i work, and i must say sorry for my reaction.

[Lady Dragonfly]

What can I say? I can't believe how pathetic this game is.

I cannot add much to all critical comments made previously.
My impression in short:
You travel from point A to point B to point C because you told to by the adults and because there is no other option anyway. Loooooong cutscene. Then surprise! You can't return to point B because... well, it is not on you map any more. Hey, you must run to Lord Nasher. Right now. Why? Don't ask, kid, just go, this is your point D. Looooong cutscene. Are you having fun yet? No? Tough luck, because you must go to point F, kid.
Khelgar became a monk. Congrats, dude. Yet the conversation tree is still the same as before!!!!! He is still rambling about his bar fight! Actually, all conversations are the same. As if the plot is not progressing. Ridiculous to say the least.

NPC become "temporarily attached" for a long while. Until death do us part.
Now, really, what the... what a great idea.

BTW, BioWare is planning to use the same NPC "attachment" in the upcoming Dragon Age.

[Snipercon]

The way I see it is half the problems people have with the game (story especially) are because of how game companies are forced to rush their products. If Obsidian had another year they certainly could have made a more involved story that branches numerous times. BUT how many of NVN2's critics would be psyched to wait another year and then pay $100 for the game?

I'll take a moment to stop thinking about what the game didn't do and consider what it did accomplish.

We have the toolkit. We can play a dozen modules with a dozen stories. We can write our own.

We have a stronghold. We can train, recruit, build, tax, develop, and SEE THE RESULTS. I thought it was sweet to see more greycloaks with better armor and weapons, more peasants and mercants walking around too, all in addition to the new buildings and repaired walls.

We have alignment shifts and companion influence. Depending on how you treat that silly druid she will react acordingly. Also the game gives you opportunities to walk up and slit some helpless loosers' throats! For me that was tremendously satisfying.

We can craft and enchant items. I can play the game with a +5 Duskwood longbow without going to X city and killing ranger Y to get it. I can play the game stuff that no other players have used.

Moral of the story is, judge the game by what the designers did right or wrong, not what the didn't have money or time to do. Its only fair. If they did something crapy (companions getting stuck on rocks) call them on it. But because if you loose the trial you don't have to escape jail and play the rest of the game as a fugitive; that is because the designers COULD NOT do this.

[mr_sir]

Moral of the story is, judge the game by what the designers did right or wrong, not what the didn't have money or time to do. Its only fair. If they did something crapy (companions getting stuck on rocks) call them on it. But because if you loose the trial you don't have to escape jail and play the rest of the game as a fugitive; that is because the designers COULD NOT do this.

I agree with you about judging what the designers did right or wrong, but isn't the fact that they didn't have time to do anything more with the game just as valid a reason to be critical of it? A game can be disappointing for various reasons, not just for design flaws and AI flaws etc. Lack of development time and money can be just as big a reason for being disappointed with a game you have been looking forward to and so these viewpoints are just as valid when discussing the elements of the game that you liked and disliked.

[Snipercon]

Isn't the fact that they didn't have time to do anything more with the game just as valid a reason to be critical of it?

I guess I will clarify. That game designers dont have time or money to make a superior game is more a function of how long we (the consumers) are willing to wait and how much we are willing to pay. Because that is an ecconomic discussion I'm just going to rightly or wrongly assume that its impossible to delay release dates in order to do more.

So the fact that the designers didn't have time to do more with the game is a perfectly valid reason to be disapointed, but not critical because it was impossible to delay the release.

[JackOfClubs]

My impression of NWN2 is overwhelmingly colored by the fact that I played all the way through with a sub-spec video card. If buying the game had been my decision, I would have passed until I could afford to upgrade, but, since it was a gift, I felt compelled to muddle through even though it was torture at times. So take the rest of what I say with that in mind because, though I will try to be fair, I really haven't played the game as its designers intended. On the other hand, I bought my current card in order to be able to play NWN and it seems a little hard to be required to upgrade for each new iteration of the game.

Graphics This was a great improvement over NWN and I felt that I was in a real place as I had in BG1 & BG2. I am generally not a fan of sacrificing gameplay to gee-whiz graphics (as I think was done here) but I have to admit the graphics were very nice. Other people have compared NWN2 unfavorably to other games that I haven't played, so maybe I am talking nonsense here.

Interface

Camera This was easily the most frustrating part of the game. I know this was exacerbated by my slow video card, but I have heard lots of other people complain as well, so I suspect that it would be frustrating even if I upgraded. I prefer not to hit the pause button but combat in real-time was almost impossible as enemies that I had targeted would be somewhere else by the time the system registered the click. Trying to get the camera to face the direction I wanted, even in pause mode, was often a time consuming process as I waited to see if moving the cursor to the side of the screen had been registered or if it was going to overshoot and force me to move back in the other direction. Even using the arrow keys did not help as the response was so slow. Then I had to deal with the camera inadvertantly shifting up or down when I moved the cursor to the bottom or top of the screen to target something. There should have been some sort of absolute reference (such as using the number pad to force the camera to point N, NW, W, etc.) rather than always moving to the relative left of right of the current position. This wouldn't have been perfect, but it would have saved me literally hours of frustration.

Quickbar This was okay, but coiuld have been better. I liked the fact that there were more options than in NWN, but hated the fact that there was no keyboard shortcut to jump to a particular row. Also, it was not always obvious how to get certain actions into the quickbar, such as the Purification Ritual feats and the Warlock's unmodified Eldritch Blast (which was on the feats menu rather than spells). Forcing navigation through mouse clicks on the scroll buttons took away a lot of the whole point in having a quickbar, especially since I found it almost impossible to get the scroll buttons to register my clicks during combat. (This may be a side-effect of my video card -- I'm not sure.)

Linearity

Vs BG It seems that there is a progression in these games that makes the story more and more linear with each new version. BG2 was more linear than BG1, NWN was more linear than BG2 and NWN2 is the most linear of all.

Vs NWN However, in spite of the increased linearity, I did find the game progression more natural than the headquarters-based travel-to-the-four-quarters-of-the-compass-then-return style of NWN, so maybe this should be registered as a partial improvement.

Party

AI This was the second most frustrating thing about the game. I think this game has the worst AI of any of the Forgotten Realms campaigns. Party members would not do what I told them to do, and would consistently do counter-productive things. I lost track of how many times I would tell Qara to cast an attack spell and come back to find out she had cancelled my command and was casting Death Armor or something similar on herself. The melee characters were a little more rational than the spell casters, but were constantly running off to attack enemies away from the party when there were monsters closer at hand killing their party members. And most of the time I had to deal with this without the benefit of Broadcast Commands in the quickbar (which was added in 1.04) a feature of NWN that made the lousy AI at least bearable.

Death OK, I didn't mind this as much as some people, but it didn't quite work. In PnP games (at least the 1st editition games that I used to play) the idea of a character going into unconsciousness when they dropped below 0 HP was a good thing and kept the story moving. But there was the downside that a character would lose 1 HP per round while unconscious so that you had to attend to them or they would die for real. The lack of that feature made NWN2's death system a joke and destroyed any aspect of challenge to most battles.

NPCs The return of the full party was a welcome change from NWN1 which I found very lonely. The different interactions were generally well-written and made you care about (or utterly despise) the characters. The romance was kind of bland (what is the fascination with elven cleric/druid women, anyway?) but liked most of the characters and found myself treating them as people rather than assets, which is how this whole thing is supposed to work.

Plot

Cutscenes I admired the technical achievement, but the actual effect on gameplay was a bit annoying. First, there were just too damn many of the things and second some of them were just too long. The worst example of this was the long series of cutscenes before the trial in Act II, which forced you to sit through about 10 minutes of movies before you could even save. And then, you were in a position of facing an enemy without being able to prepare, despite the fact that the whole point of the long cutscene vigil was supposed to be ... preparing to face the battle! Several other cutscenes had similar effects on preperation and some of them were so long that, even if you did cast some buffing spells before starting the conversation, the spells would wear off before it was over.

Forced NPCs Similar remarks as above. In a role-playing game, you just should not have to be forced to take the path that the designers envisioned. I understand the need to have some sort of a plot, but I felt that the cost in player freedom was just too high in this game.

I see that I had a lot more negative to say than positive. I think on the whole this was a good game and I look forward to playing it again someday when I have the time and money to upgrade my video card (the time and inconvenience is the bigger issue than the money. That and the simple resentment of having to do this all over again when I just upgraded a few years ago to play version 1). If BG 1 & 2 were the gold standard, I would say that NWN was silver-plated copper and NWN2 is solid silver.

[Snipercon]

hated the fact that there was no keyboard shortcut to jump to a particular row.

Try SHIFT+Number

It is true that Obsidian didn't document all of their keyboard shortcuts well. I think I saw somewhere that there are keys to cycle targets as well as to attack the current target. Does anyone know if there is a good document or website that details ALL the keyboard functions?

[Cyrinn]

You travel from point A to point B to point C because you told to by the adults and because there is no other option anyway.

LOL!

The game is linear, but I never felt like the "adults" told me to do anything.

There are a few optional areas in the game.

I agree that the game was released in a very sloppy state, but that is the trend these days. There are many more games out there that were released in an unplayable state.

I suppose it was hyped up quite a bit, but I still enjoyed the game. Would I prefer a less linear game? Yes. Are linear games bad? Not in my opinion. Everyone has a different opinion of a great game.

My question is, any of you that trashed the game going to buy the expansion?

I would wager that some will.

[JackOfClubs]

Try SHIFT+Number

It seems I did try that and couldn't get it to work. Possibly another side-effect of my system's slow response.

I don't remember where I read the tip, maybe on the screen that pops up between areas. I agree that a universal list would be helpful.

My question is, any of you that trashed the game going to buy the expansion?

I would wager that some will.

I will, but not until I upgrade my video card. Then again I didn't exactly trash the game, so maybe you weren't talking to me.

[Snipercon]

Since alot of people would like a nonlinear story, I have some ideas for furture NVN games, expansions, and modules. I think the key to a nonlinear story line is to have very few (1-2) story quests, and to have many ways to complete that quest as well as side stuff to do on the way. Here's an outline of a representative story.

Prologue: Your parents are famous but relatively unknown adventurers (many people have heard of their exploits but few know anything about them). During dinner with your family and best friend bad guys appear. Your parents go outside and are arguing. Your best friend takes your fathers ring and as you yell "NOOOOO!" he unleashes the power of the ring, blasting away the marauders and your parents. More bad guys chase your friend into the night.

Act I: Years have passed and you have moved on to: a member of the militia, a farmer, a apprentice wizard, a gang at an orphanage, a church, a monestary (each of these beginings are not class dependent but provide a background feat advantageous to associated classes). A traveler comes and asks for you. He says he heard of your father leading a band of bad guys terorizing a distant land. You both realize that with your best friend is using the ring to impersonate your father. You decide to set off and kill you once friend (Quest 1).

Act II: Now its up to you. You can travel to various viliages and join various groups. There are wizard schools, mercenary groups, durid orders, churches, monestaries, thief guilds, military, merchant shops, political groups. You can simply earn a living, try to increase the power of your group through alliances or conquest, betray your group, explore in search of clues to your friends location, loot dungeons and dragon caves.

Act III: Eventually you either track down your friend, or he hears of your exploits and tracks you down. You can use your influence and alliances to organize a massive army, use your guile to infiltrate his camp, or even just walk up to the front gate yourself. Any case you end up fighting (or joining?) your friend (Quest 1 complete).

I think an effective and enjoable NVN story would not have to be as long or as epic as the original campaign, but perhaps smaller, shorter, and more personal. Also with an entirely open ended story there is much greater potential for roleplaying and replayability. After all, besides the prologue there are several beginings, several ends, and even more paths between them.

[Lady Dragonfly]

The game is linear, but I never felt like the "adults" told me to do anything.

Surely your snooty "father" and various Nasher's cronies who were pushing you around can be counted as adults?

There are a few optional areas in the game.

It does not really help the extreme linearity, does it? And if you overlook an "optional area" in chapter one, you cannot access it in chapter two. So much for the "option".

My question is, any of you that trashed the game going to buy the expansion?

I would wager that some will.

Not me. I haven't even finished the original one: I stopped playing in chapter 3. There are few games I've never finished during my 17 years of gaming, out of sheer frustration: Battlespire, Pool of Radiance, Demon Stone and NWN2 are on this list.

[Seltzer]

I'm pretty disappointed with NWN2. Baldur's Gate I and II are my favourite games ever, IWD was good but nowhere near BG and I thought NWN1 was a really good game.

NWN2 has some great ideas - I love having my own castle. However it is badly coded and there are WAY too many bugs. I've spent a fair bit of time working my way around bugs, but I never ended up being able to finish the game because of a crippling bug which I couldn't avoid.

A lot of potential, but it ended up being buggy beyond all imagination.

[Darth Spawn]

hay they might fix this stuff up in the expansion

[sun_facer]

Improvements and opinions

1st thought - I NO longer have to redo my level-ups due to hit die rerolls!!!!! Yea!!! Thank you, programmers!!!!

Compared to NWN1 OC, NWN2 is much better.
The graphics is better. The main character is so much more detailed. Especially the women - no longer the thin, skinny model looking weakling. I had one wielding a bastard sword. Looks like her arm will break under the weight.
The quickbar NO longer is a problem. When I played a mage in NWN1, the icons block the position. I have quickly guess which slot in order to cast spell. ****ty.
I am not done with the game, but the improvements are appreciated. Thank you.
NPCs: Better cinematics. I like the arguements that goes on between them. Thanks... very hilarious. Pretty cool backgrounds too. But still, it's funny when Kelgar talks to my stomach... or pubic bone... somewhere around there.
Gameplay: The KOTOR style pause is very good! Thanks!
The Neeshka "I can do that" is handy too. She is automatic! Yeah! Finally, someone with some brains!
Holy Avenger: Nice!
Cinematics: Very entertaining... but can I have a "Movie replay"?
MultiClass: More than 3 classes1? Thanks!

But... compared to HotU....
Level20! Come on.... I was hoping there is no cap! I had a 20Sorc/11RDD/Rog... Magic and Melee... only possible with level 40. Please....
Camera: I get dizzy after a while. It's hard to use.
Inventory: What the ***K?!
Toolset: It's not as user-friendly as in NWN1.
Faces: pretty limited choices.
NPCs: They still lose themselves like in NWN1 especially around corners and rooms.
Graphics: FOr a game this size, it's not doing NWN justice.
Gameplay: Is it just me or is 4GB DDR2 RAM insufficent? Or is it just clunky?