Hi to all, first time posting, love the forum!
I recently got Forgotten Realms Deluxe Edition (BG1+TOSC, BG2+TOB, ID+HOW, ID2, NWN+SOU+HOU). In which order should I play for best experience while keeping the story intact? As I understand it, characters can be imported from one game to another?
Dual classing...
I've roamed trough the uncharted murky depths of internet, manuals, faqs and this forum but I can't find a be-all end-all guide to dual classing. If someone could point me in the right direction I'd be most grateful. I'm interested in a bit of power gaming (a bit tired of the old role playing "elvish archer, orcish berserker, dwarven cleric etc." routine), so I'd like to create a really powerful party. I had something like this in mind:
1) Kensai-Mage - Tenser, Time Stop, Imp. Alacrity, Simulacrum goodness
2) Kensai-Thief - huge back stabbing damage, Use Any Item
3) Swahbuckler-Cleric - dual wielding Flail of the Ages and Crom Faeyr
4&5) two of the following:
---either Archer - specialized in Short Bows with Tuigan Bow is 4.5 attacks per round
---or Undead Hunter - great against undead, no need for Inquisitor dispelling with Carsomyr equipped
---or Mage - although a party can survive without a cleric a mage is always needed. Maybe a specialized mage, or dual to something else after my kensai duals to a mage?
6) Reserved for NPCs and their quests for more XP/loot. Otherwise vacant to level up faster many dual characters.
Now onto the questions (in no particular order):
1) What do you think of my party? Should I use all 6 slots for my characters and export import characters after completing NPC quests? It seems to me that with 5 characters my group either lacks mage spells or a heavily armored tank...
2) What happens with weapon proficiencies when dual classing? For example, if my Swashbuckler has three points in dual wielding and two in short sword does it loose them when it duals to a cleric? And what happens after it regains it's thieving skills?
3) Is Archer worth it? It is capable of doing massive damage in a short period of time but it is quite limited in abilities and pretty much straightforward in what it does. Also, which race should it be? As a ranger kit, archer's prime stat is constitution, but an elf has 19 in dexterity which is great for bows right? Or should I just go for with a half-elf for infravision and some resistances?
4) Is a Time Stop - Improved Alacrity - Simulacrum - Wish (for resting) viable infinite combo? Or am I missing something here?
5) Once my Kensai duals to a Mage, should I dual my Mage to something else? To what and why? Which schools are considered best?
Well, that's all I can think of right now...
Thanks for all replies!
Dual Classing?
BG is a seperate series to IWD, and NWN is seperate again. So play BG1+TotSC before BG2+ToB, play IWD+HoW before IWD2. You can import your BG1 character into BG2.
As for NWN, the Original Campaign is probably the best one to start with. Then play SoU with a new character and use that same character for HotU (as the story from SoU continues into HotU but the Original Campaign is seperate to them both and, for continuity, should really be a different character. However, in practice you can use the O.C. character in HotU without it affecting gameplay etc.
IWD1 & 2 are set in different time periods so it doesn't really make any sense to import your party from IWD1 into IWD2.
In summary:
The order I would recommend playing the games is BG1 then import character into BG2 then play IWD1 and IWD2, then play NWN O.C. Lastly play SoU and import that character into HotU.
Edit: For your first play through of BG1 and 2, I'd strongly suggest creating just the main character and filling your party with the various NPCs you meet (there are loads of these and they are diverse in character and class). The NPCs and their banter are one of the best things about the BG series
Edit 2: As for dual classing, you will lose your proficiencies and abilities from the first class until the second class is 1 level higher than your first, at which point you will regain all of your old abilities and proficiencies (however the proficiencies from each class do not stack so its best to choose different ones for each class so when you regain your old proficiencies you will have a wider choice of weapons to use).
In order to dual class you need at least 15 in the main stat for the first class and 17 in the main stat for your second class. You also need to be human.
Humans can only dual class not multiclass, other races can only multiclass and not dual class. If you multiclass then you gain levels in both classes simultaneously but will not get as high level in a class as you can if you dual.
As for NWN, the Original Campaign is probably the best one to start with. Then play SoU with a new character and use that same character for HotU (as the story from SoU continues into HotU but the Original Campaign is seperate to them both and, for continuity, should really be a different character. However, in practice you can use the O.C. character in HotU without it affecting gameplay etc.
IWD1 & 2 are set in different time periods so it doesn't really make any sense to import your party from IWD1 into IWD2.
In summary:
The order I would recommend playing the games is BG1 then import character into BG2 then play IWD1 and IWD2, then play NWN O.C. Lastly play SoU and import that character into HotU.
Edit: For your first play through of BG1 and 2, I'd strongly suggest creating just the main character and filling your party with the various NPCs you meet (there are loads of these and they are diverse in character and class). The NPCs and their banter are one of the best things about the BG series
Edit 2: As for dual classing, you will lose your proficiencies and abilities from the first class until the second class is 1 level higher than your first, at which point you will regain all of your old abilities and proficiencies (however the proficiencies from each class do not stack so its best to choose different ones for each class so when you regain your old proficiencies you will have a wider choice of weapons to use).
In order to dual class you need at least 15 in the main stat for the first class and 17 in the main stat for your second class. You also need to be human.
Humans can only dual class not multiclass, other races can only multiclass and not dual class. If you multiclass then you gain levels in both classes simultaneously but will not get as high level in a class as you can if you dual.
1 what mr sir said
2 iirc the proficiencies are gone just after the dual class. You regain them with your inactive class, unless you put proficiencies in it while the class was inactive.
3 not sure never tried it
4 Even with wisdom 18 getting the option to rest with wish is not guaranteed. So don't use it in battle, because you can't save and reload there.
5 you could dual to a cleric to get access to healing spells. Not sure though since I don't duall class much.
2 iirc the proficiencies are gone just after the dual class. You regain them with your inactive class, unless you put proficiencies in it while the class was inactive.
3 not sure never tried it
4 Even with wisdom 18 getting the option to rest with wish is not guaranteed. So don't use it in battle, because you can't save and reload there.
5 you could dual to a cleric to get access to healing spells. Not sure though since I don't duall class much.
Welcome to GB!
@1) You won't need more than one Thief, so having a Kensai->Thief and a Swashbuckler->Cleric in the Party is a kind of waste. I'd recommend switching the Swashbuckler->Cleric with a Ranger/Cleric.
If you want to do all the NPCs' quests and want to have a party of six, what about taking along the NPC of your choice after you have completed all the NPCs' quests?
@2) The weapon proficiencies of the first class are deactivated and will reappear once the second class reactivates. Unfortunately, the proficiencies of both classes don't stack. So don't train the same proficiencies with both classes while waiting for your first class to reactivate.
You won't lose any proficiency points, but you won't be able to use your shortswords anymore (if you don't wait until you get UAI, that is), and you won't be able to add more proficiency points to your thief-only weapon proficiencies, even when your thief class reactivates.
@4)
For more information about endless spells strategies, check Xyx' [url="http://http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/EndlessSpells.htm"]spells reference[/url].
@5) If you want power, I would't recommend dualing from a mage, but rather to a mage. (There are, however, people that recommend rare builds, such as the Conjurer(22)->Cleric(23)).
If you want a pure mage, you might like the sorcerer or even the wild mage, the rest of the mage's kits don't even come close (in power).
I hope this helped
Lark
@1) You won't need more than one Thief, so having a Kensai->Thief and a Swashbuckler->Cleric in the Party is a kind of waste. I'd recommend switching the Swashbuckler->Cleric with a Ranger/Cleric.
If you want to do all the NPCs' quests and want to have a party of six, what about taking along the NPC of your choice after you have completed all the NPCs' quests?
@2) The weapon proficiencies of the first class are deactivated and will reappear once the second class reactivates. Unfortunately, the proficiencies of both classes don't stack. So don't train the same proficiencies with both classes while waiting for your first class to reactivate.
You won't lose any proficiency points, but you won't be able to use your shortswords anymore (if you don't wait until you get UAI, that is), and you won't be able to add more proficiency points to your thief-only weapon proficiencies, even when your thief class reactivates.
@4)
No. Simulacra have only half their originals' level, meaning , that you won't be able to cast Wish from your Spellbook, even at lvl 31. So you will only be able to let your Simulacrum cast Wish from scrolls (of which there are only three in the whole game), Since you will get the rest option only about 1out of 5 times (at WIS 18), I wouldn't call that a viable combo even if no mage of your party would want to add Wish to his spell book. Moreover, Improved Alacrity won't help you with using items, such as scrolls.Is a Time Stop - Improved Alacrity - Simulacrum - Wish (for resting) viable infinite combo?
For more information about endless spells strategies, check Xyx' [url="http://http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/EndlessSpells.htm"]spells reference[/url].
@5) If you want power, I would't recommend dualing from a mage, but rather to a mage. (There are, however, people that recommend rare builds, such as the Conjurer(22)->Cleric(23)).
If you want a pure mage, you might like the sorcerer or even the wild mage, the rest of the mage's kits don't even come close (in power).
I hope this helped
Lark
I'd say play 'em in the order you got 'em listed. As previously stated, BG, IWD, and NWN are all separate games. Just be sure to import your BG1 dude to BG2.Fuddha wrote:I recently got Forgotten Realms Deluxe Edition (BG1+TOSC, BG2+TOB, ID+HOW, ID2, NWN+SOU+HOU). In which order should I play for best experience while keeping the story intact? As I understand it, characters can be imported from one game to another?
Check this out:Fuddha wrote: Dual classing...
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldu ... post904461
With your party, I'd say use the NPCs in the BG games, and save the powergaming for the titles with less "character".
With everything else, I'd say avoid dudes named Noober, and in the end all will be fine.
Why is it that whenever I finally get around to playing a new game for the first time,
I feel like playing Baldur's Gate for the second time...
I feel like playing Baldur's Gate for the second time...
Thanks for all the responses!
I think I'll first finish my BG1 campaign and then import the character to BG2. I agree that using NPCs can be fun ("Go for the eyes Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!" :laugh: ) but I soon find it pretty annoying that I can't play the game exactly like I want it to. Yes, some NPCs can be quite powerful but most of them are barely usable at best. I played trough BG1 once with NPCs a long long time ago and that was the last time I'm spending my precious time to make NPCs useful/playable instead of concentrating on the plot.
For BG2, I plan to make this party:
1) Undead Hunter imported from BG1
2) Kensai - Mage dualed on lev12
3) Kensai - Thief dualed on lev12
4) Swashbuckler - Cleric dualed on lev10
5) Archer
6) Mage
As much as I'd like to use only 5 characters to level up faster and have room for NPCs, I feel that by skimping on either PC I loose either mage spells or archery or a heavily armored tank. Guess I'll just have to import/export characters to temporarily make room for NPCs and their quests.
Although it may seem pointless to have two thieves in my party, I must point out that Kensai-Thief and Swashbuckler-Cleric have two very distinct purposes. KT is for backstabbing, hide in shadows/move silently, pickpocketing, traps and especially for Use Any Item so that I can equip him with Full Plate +2 and make him a mean lean killing machine. The SC is for three points in dual wielding and the +2 bonus to AC, thac0 and damage at lev10 so that when the swashbuckler part reactivates, the cleric part can dual wield Flail of the Ages and Crom Faeyr which is just plain ridiculous. Also, SC can disarm traps and pick locks in early and late game. In mid game, I'll just use my mage spells for that.
Archer is just plain silly IMO. Remember how good composite long bow was back in BG1? Well, an Archer is an improvement to that old tactic as it turns into a friggin' Gatling gun from the very beginning of the game - Tuigan bow. Also, Gesen bow is really good for those hard to hit targets. Question - the thac0 bonuses from the launcher and ammo stack right? So if I use Gesen bow (thac0 +4) with Arrows +2 I get thac0 +6? Also, which race to for an Archer? An elf can have dex19 which means I get Missile Attack Adjustment +3 instead +2 with dex18 (MAA is bonus thac0 for missiles right?). OTOH an elf has maximum con17 which is the primary ranger skill. The tables in the manual state that constitution is for determining hit points gained per level - +2(+3) for con17 opposed to +2(+4) for con18. I guess that hit points are not so important when your raining arrow death on your opponent form back lines... What does constitution do for rangers as their main stat besides extra hit points?
Undead Hunter or Inquisitor? I heard many people say that Inquisitor is better for dealing with mages because of their dispelling capabilities, but what does "May use Dispel Magic ability once per day per 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use). The ability is used at a speed factor of 1 and acts at twice his actual level." mean? Does it mean that lev5 Inquisitor can dispel lev10 spells? If this proves not true, why not just then take Undead Hunter and equip him with Carsomyr which dispels both on hit and as an ability?
edit: Did you know that if you force-kill Noober before he gets a chance to talk to you, you get more XP (250 I believe) then if you kill him after he talks to you?
edit2: Does Two Handed Weapon Style give you bonuses when using two handed missile weapons such as bows?
Thnx!
I think I'll first finish my BG1 campaign and then import the character to BG2. I agree that using NPCs can be fun ("Go for the eyes Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!" :laugh: ) but I soon find it pretty annoying that I can't play the game exactly like I want it to. Yes, some NPCs can be quite powerful but most of them are barely usable at best. I played trough BG1 once with NPCs a long long time ago and that was the last time I'm spending my precious time to make NPCs useful/playable instead of concentrating on the plot.
For BG2, I plan to make this party:
1) Undead Hunter imported from BG1
2) Kensai - Mage dualed on lev12
3) Kensai - Thief dualed on lev12
4) Swashbuckler - Cleric dualed on lev10
5) Archer
6) Mage
As much as I'd like to use only 5 characters to level up faster and have room for NPCs, I feel that by skimping on either PC I loose either mage spells or archery or a heavily armored tank. Guess I'll just have to import/export characters to temporarily make room for NPCs and their quests.
Although it may seem pointless to have two thieves in my party, I must point out that Kensai-Thief and Swashbuckler-Cleric have two very distinct purposes. KT is for backstabbing, hide in shadows/move silently, pickpocketing, traps and especially for Use Any Item so that I can equip him with Full Plate +2 and make him a mean lean killing machine. The SC is for three points in dual wielding and the +2 bonus to AC, thac0 and damage at lev10 so that when the swashbuckler part reactivates, the cleric part can dual wield Flail of the Ages and Crom Faeyr which is just plain ridiculous. Also, SC can disarm traps and pick locks in early and late game. In mid game, I'll just use my mage spells for that.
Archer is just plain silly IMO. Remember how good composite long bow was back in BG1? Well, an Archer is an improvement to that old tactic as it turns into a friggin' Gatling gun from the very beginning of the game - Tuigan bow. Also, Gesen bow is really good for those hard to hit targets. Question - the thac0 bonuses from the launcher and ammo stack right? So if I use Gesen bow (thac0 +4) with Arrows +2 I get thac0 +6? Also, which race to for an Archer? An elf can have dex19 which means I get Missile Attack Adjustment +3 instead +2 with dex18 (MAA is bonus thac0 for missiles right?). OTOH an elf has maximum con17 which is the primary ranger skill. The tables in the manual state that constitution is for determining hit points gained per level - +2(+3) for con17 opposed to +2(+4) for con18. I guess that hit points are not so important when your raining arrow death on your opponent form back lines... What does constitution do for rangers as their main stat besides extra hit points?
Undead Hunter or Inquisitor? I heard many people say that Inquisitor is better for dealing with mages because of their dispelling capabilities, but what does "May use Dispel Magic ability once per day per 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use). The ability is used at a speed factor of 1 and acts at twice his actual level." mean? Does it mean that lev5 Inquisitor can dispel lev10 spells? If this proves not true, why not just then take Undead Hunter and equip him with Carsomyr which dispels both on hit and as an ability?
edit: Did you know that if you force-kill Noober before he gets a chance to talk to you, you get more XP (250 I believe) then if you kill him after he talks to you?
edit2: Does Two Handed Weapon Style give you bonuses when using two handed missile weapons such as bows?
Thnx!
About your party:
1) Keep in mind that paladins can become fallen if you don't play like the developers exspect you to. I never played multiplayer, but if your paladin isn't your main character, it might not be so dangerous. I also think that other characters will benefit more from the special abilities.
Read the BG2 spell description of "dispel magic" if you don't kmow what it does.
2) 12 is a bad level to dual. If you dual at level 9 you'd be always 2 mage levels ahead and still have the same hitpoints and number of attacks per round.
If you dualed at level 13 on the other hand you get an extra half attack, increasing your attacks per round by 25 percent and better saving throws.
Since it's your backup mage I'd consider creating a multiclass instead, this way you'll get both the fighter and mage benefits for the whole game and far more HLAs.
3) Like 2) 12 is no good level for dualing a fighter. 13 is far better.
A multiclass fighter/thief will be far superior since he'll get far more HLAs starting 1,000,000 XP earlier.
4) In midgame the faster gain of cleric levels is nice, but in the end a cleric/thief multiclass will be far stronger because of the HLAs.
5)Bonusses from arrows and launchers stack. Your archer's thac0 will be perfect fast, his attacks won't benefit from extra thac0 while 18 instead of 17 con yields 9 HP.
6)I'd start this character with 7-9 fighter, 9 cleric or 10-11 thief kit levels for extra hitpoints and other bonusses which hardly cost any XP. If you really don't want to dualclass take a conjurer (with 18 int and 10 wis his lore should be high enough to identify most things) or a wild mage or sorcerer.
Two Handed Weapon Style doesn't give you bonuses when using two handed missile weapons such as bows.
I'd also consider taking the characters you dualclass from warrior or cleric through BG1. A pure class fighter or cleric with good stats can help a lot compared to the weak and annoying NPCs in BG1 and can start BG2 with 161,000 XP.
1) Keep in mind that paladins can become fallen if you don't play like the developers exspect you to. I never played multiplayer, but if your paladin isn't your main character, it might not be so dangerous. I also think that other characters will benefit more from the special abilities.
Read the BG2 spell description of "dispel magic" if you don't kmow what it does.
2) 12 is a bad level to dual. If you dual at level 9 you'd be always 2 mage levels ahead and still have the same hitpoints and number of attacks per round.
If you dualed at level 13 on the other hand you get an extra half attack, increasing your attacks per round by 25 percent and better saving throws.
Since it's your backup mage I'd consider creating a multiclass instead, this way you'll get both the fighter and mage benefits for the whole game and far more HLAs.
3) Like 2) 12 is no good level for dualing a fighter. 13 is far better.
A multiclass fighter/thief will be far superior since he'll get far more HLAs starting 1,000,000 XP earlier.
4) In midgame the faster gain of cleric levels is nice, but in the end a cleric/thief multiclass will be far stronger because of the HLAs.
5)Bonusses from arrows and launchers stack. Your archer's thac0 will be perfect fast, his attacks won't benefit from extra thac0 while 18 instead of 17 con yields 9 HP.
6)I'd start this character with 7-9 fighter, 9 cleric or 10-11 thief kit levels for extra hitpoints and other bonusses which hardly cost any XP. If you really don't want to dualclass take a conjurer (with 18 int and 10 wis his lore should be high enough to identify most things) or a wild mage or sorcerer.
Two Handed Weapon Style doesn't give you bonuses when using two handed missile weapons such as bows.
I'd also consider taking the characters you dualclass from warrior or cleric through BG1. A pure class fighter or cleric with good stats can help a lot compared to the weak and annoying NPCs in BG1 and can start BG2 with 161,000 XP.
Since you're bent on powergaming, make sure you go to Fighter 13 before dual-classing. It makes an enormous difference.
BTW, I think Berserkers are better than Kensai.
I also favor multi-classed characters over dual-classed ones. It's debatable which is more powerful, but I belive MC wins:
1) You get abilities from both classes the entire game.
2) You get High Level Abilities from both classes.
3) You will end up with better Saving Throws and THAC0
The only con, IMHO, of multiclassing is that you can't (legally) choose a kit.
BTW, I think Berserkers are better than Kensai.
I also favor multi-classed characters over dual-classed ones. It's debatable which is more powerful, but I belive MC wins:
1) You get abilities from both classes the entire game.
2) You get High Level Abilities from both classes.
3) You will end up with better Saving Throws and THAC0
The only con, IMHO, of multiclassing is that you can't (legally) choose a kit.
"A life is not important, except in the impact it has on other lives."
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
It seems that I misunderstood the rules of dual classing... One of my characters is a Swashbuckler 10 / Cleric 11 and though it has thieving skills now they are as my character was a level 1 thief. As levels in Swashbuckler progressed I pumped up Open Locks, Find Traps and Detect Illusion up to 100 but now they are 25, 10 and 0 respectively. Also items like Gloves of Pickpocketing and Boots of Stealth do give bonuses to my thieving abilities but my Elven Chain Mail does not penalize them. What I missed here?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Fuddha wrote:Hi to all, first time posting, love the forum!
---or Undead Hunter - great against undead, no need for Inquisitor dispelling with Carsomyr equipped
1) What do you think of my party? Should I use all 6 slots for my characters and export import characters after completing NPC quests? It seems to me that with 5 characters my group either lacks mage spells or a heavily armored tank...
4) Is a Time Stop - Improved Alacrity - Simulacrum - Wish (for resting) viable infinite combo? Or am I missing something here?
5) Once my Kensai duals to a Mage, should I dual my Mage to something else? To what and why? Which schools are considered best?
Well, that's all I can think of right now...
Thanks for all replies!
Undead Hunter is good, but Inquisitor is far better. Why?
1. Carsomyr has to HIT in order to dispel 100%. Thus, how will you hit an enemy protected from Magical Weapons? And yet another important thing - an Inquisitor's dispellation ability is immediately cast, counts not as a spell but a special ability(which means that an enemy Spell Immunity: Abjuration will not stop it), and has double-strength compared to any other dispel magic you can release! This means 100% success through any kind of spell-defenses and immunities.
2. True Sight of an Inquisitor also counts as a special ability with casting time 1 - released immediately and cannot be stopped by SI: Divination, while the usual True Sight spell can.
1) your party seems nice, but I do not like export/importing, unless it isn't simply exporting a character from BG1 into BG2. Because otherwise it is cheating. By export-importing I can make a party of six Magic resistant 120% elemental resistant 120% saving throws -20 all stats 25 characters protected from weapons +1 and less, all with two rings of Gaxx, each with either Staff of the Magi&Robe of Vecna or with Flail of Ages + Crom Faeyr. Not interesting at all, you can see.
4) it is not a perpetual combo, since you have to wait for the Time stop to end in order for the wish spell to take effect. And it is unlikely that you will get the rest option anytime you want. This is possible, but with a Sorcerer and many Projected Images + Simulacra.
5) You cannot dual any character more than once.