Getting BG3 Made (for real)

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:33 pm

Sator wrote:If we cover all that, a 3-4 year project will become a possibility I myself can help out with concept art and imaging.. Modeling too maybe, but after a year or so. Writing as well, although my English isn't that developed. Also, we need someone who knows how a 2.5 D game is made, how all those sprites and things are connected in a BG like environment.

If you were planning to use the game engine used by BG2 or even the more recent one used by IWD2, would you not need to also get permission from the developers of this engine?

Sator · Post by **Sator** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:40 pm

I wasn't suggesting that we use the Infinity Engine (although if we *could* do that it would make this project a lot easier). If we are to make such a tribute game, everything must be created by us from scratch, in order not to get in trouble over copyright. The only thing that will connect this fan-made game to the BG series will be the name, story, locations and so on. Think of it as a giant fan fiction/mod/free advertisement. At least thats how the fans of the Might and Magic series got away with making a M&M game. Although, since nobody will ever again use the Infinity Engine (since the majority of todays gamers view it as dated and obsolete and NOT 3D OMG WTF WHINE WHINE WHINE) it would be great if it were released from copyright and given away as open source.... Ah to dream..

Anyway IE is the best engine for a BG game as far as i'm concerned, so the fan-made engine should aim for a strong resemblance..

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:03 pm

Its a long shot and they would most likely say no, but if people are serious about making a fan made sequel then there would be no harm in someone contacting Bioware or whoever holds the copyright for the Infinity Engine and simply asking them if they would give permission for it to be used (explaining in the process that it will be for non-profit purposes in order to make a fan made module/tribute to the BG series).

Sator · Post by **Sator** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:41 am

There's a thought!

I suppose that since GB is one of the largest Baldur's Gate communities, one of our moderators could make an impression on Bioware

It'd be even better if we got together with the mod creators (who already are experienced with IE and BG2 mechanics), and make one super BG community that would surely impress Bioware! After all, these are the people that buy their games

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:56 pm

And the wheels are turning... Grease the wheels! Grease the wheels! It is certainly a possibility and this forum has many talented folks who can see it through. The 'decent' voice actors may be a problem, though. Those folks generally want to be paid... Just try to get better actors than they got for Dungeon Siege or Temple of Elemental Evil...

RPG Guy (sorta) · Post by **RPG Guy (sorta)** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:49 pm

The biggest obstacle isn't related to securing rights or project development.

It's about finding quality people to donate and follow-through with their contributions without any expectation of monetary reward.

It's about not letting greed set in at any point...keeping everyone's eye on the prize: a great tribute game made by the people, for the people...nothing else.

This becomes a serious threat as the project moves closer to a marketable reality.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:03 am

*SPOILER BELOW*

Hmmm...if I recall correctly, when Sarevok was given life again in ToB, he lost Bhaal's taint. The PC had Bhaal's taint removed by the other gods at the completion of endgame. The story was wrapped up at that point, given a finishing touch by your choice of final disposition: mortal or immortal.

I really don't think any sort of continuation of the Bhaalspawn storyline would be practical nor really desirable. I am admittedly a huge fan of the BG series, but I honestly don't think I would care much for such a thing. Certainly, I don't think BioWare would be favorably inclined to such a venture either.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed May 02, 2007 12:52 pm

Some Concrete Thoughts

I was thinking about all of this and a number of things occurred to me:

*First of all, if we are truly serious here, before even continuing further we need to decide on a storyline and structure and then write up a detailed and professional outline. Some might suggest it would be a waste of time to do this before contacting Bioware, however, there is method to my madness. It is very likely that Bioware will have one of two possible responses, at least initially. They will either give a flat-out "No," or they might be willing to consider it if they can see a clearly outlined plan. It would look very good if we forwarded our plan along with our initial proposal because they would be far more likely to see us as serious and committed. Further, Bioware would want to see what we were intending, given the association of their name with the BG series. The fact that this would be an independent production would not matter.... people would still leap to the conclusion that Bioware had something to do with it.
Further, assuming they initially say "No," Bioware might be swayed with a well -written plan.

As far as a story and structure go, the biggest hurdle I can see right now is that some debate exists on whether to continue with the Bhaalspawn saga or start afresh. While I have plenty of warm, fuzzy nostalgia for the storyline and characters of BG2, and in some ways, I'd like to see a continuation, my instincts tell me that it would be much better to create a fairly original story for the following reasons:
> We won't run into complaints such as "Minsc/Jaheira/ etc. would never have said this," or "I never saw the story continuing like this."
> We would have far greater freedom which would allow for considerably more creativity (though we have to be true to the Forgotten Realms setting)
> Bioware is more likely to be amenable to something that does not involve a story or characters they originally had a hand in.

I think that it would make eminent sense to use the IWD series as a model here. We should situate the new story about 100 years after the events of BG2 have concluded. There would be reference to those events so that the player would feel that cozy spark of recollection, but the stories themselves would be utterly distinct from one another.

Finally (for now), I think it would make a great deal of sense to approach Jason Compton and Westley Weimer for advice and suggestions. They are two very important BG2 modders (currently engaged in actually making an Indie game, "The Broken Hourglass"), and Weimer is responsible for creating Weidu upon which so many mods are based.
These two have created some exceptionally high quality, professional calibre BG2 mods, and I suspect, were they willing to impart their wisdom, they would offer invaluable advice and information.

AvatarOfLight · Post by **AvatarOfLight** » Wed May 02, 2007 1:42 pm

Dragon Wench speaks great wisdom. I must however state that it doesn't look like the industry is ready for a game like this. I simply don't see anyone willing and (more importantly atm) able to make a game that offers A GREAT STORY/EXPERIENCE. It's simply not the focus these days. Action games and the such can much easier be send out incomplete, bugged, etc than a story driven game. Making additions and fixing bugs through patches is more of an option for them. None (?) but Blizzard seem to be able to transcend the publishers and do what they want.

I think you really need to ask yourselves if you want another Baldur's Gate game. Believe me, the thought makes my heart pump a little faster too. But it's like a bottomless desire. What you really want to do is experience Baldur's Gate again from the start, like it's something new. Baldur's Gate 3 won't give you that. Like many I don't see a continuation of the Bhaalspawn Saga. It was finished and in my opinion finished well. A game that has no tie to the Bhaalspawn Saga has no right to be called BG 3 in my mind. It'd just be a sales tool.

So what can we do? Nothing much, except making our voice heard and really show the publishers that we are looking for a story experience of great quality, rather than another (excuse my extreme opinion) ZOMG EPIX LEVELZ PRESTIGE CLASS +20 WPNS DRAGONSLAUGHTER Neverwinter Nights 2. I don't want to be the huge hero that comes out of nowhere and sets things right. WHO YOU ARE is so much more than your pick of the dozens of (prestige) classes + an alignment.

</rant>

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed May 02, 2007 2:59 pm

I must however state that it doesn't look like the industry is ready for a game like this. I simply don't see anyone willing and (more importantly atm) able to make a game that offers A GREAT STORY/EXPERIENCE. It's simply not the focus these days.

Indeed, but I don't really think this is the issue of concern here

First of all, this would be, effectively, an unpaid, volunteer-made game. As RPG Guy stated, this is the vision we must hold, that of a creative act fuelled only by the desire to see a great game. Profits are not something that really come into play. If such a venture were to actually reap financial dividends, well that would be a pleasant side effect, but it should never, ever be the focus or even a concern.

Secondly, this would be an independant production. Indie productions, by their nature, do not generally cater to a mainstream audience, whether they be gaming, film, music, or whatever.
Quite clearly, were this put into motion, we would be directing any kind of marketing to a small, niche community. Such a community would be somewhat older (roughly 20+), likely have a history in P&P, D&D gaming, and they would be the types of people who often bemoam the loss of real, story-based RPGs.
(Game Banshee, RPG Codex and NMA are full of them

)

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Wed May 02, 2007 3:03 pm

I don't think any sequel would measure up to the original, especially if it is "home-made". Even if all legal and financial questions would be answered positively, and several talented people would find time to do the work, there is no guarantee that the result (in three years???) would satisfy anybody, creators included.

AvatarOfLight · Post by **AvatarOfLight** » Wed May 02, 2007 3:12 pm

Bah! I'm such a helpless pessimist in these things! xD

If there'd be any community BG 3'ish project I'd be in. In fact if all goes well I'll be starting a college education in Gamedesign (focused mostly on the programming side) starting September.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed May 02, 2007 4:53 pm

AvatarOfLight wrote:Bah! I'm such a helpless pessimist in these things! xD

lol!
I tend to think that realism is probably the best route to go

There is a lot of collective talent on these boards, and I have little doubt we could create a first-rate game.
The potential pitfalls, IMO, are the fact that this would require three or four years of commitment, all of which would be volunteered time, and the clincher would be somehow maintaining steam so that people are unlikely to drop out. The other issue is that seeing as this would be a collaborative effort, steps would need to be taken to absolutely minimise possible conflicts.
This, amongst other things, requires a subtle balancing act between ensuring people feel they have say in decision making while simultaneously, having something of a structure and hierarchy in place that accomplishes said decision making. In other words, flavours need to be subtle and well placed, while bearing in mind that 'too many cooks can spoil the broth.'

I hope that makes sense...
I have some experience in collective efforts, both recreational and professional, so I know of what I speak

Curry · Post by **Curry** » Sun May 06, 2007 5:21 am

It's just a matter of time :S

Seltzer · Post by **Seltzer** » Sun May 13, 2007 3:51 am

Baldur's Gate I and II are my favourite games ever - they have elements in such great detail that other games don't - the personality/storyline, the intricate art/music, the capturing storyline...

If a BG III was made, it would seriously change my life, provided that it was made up to standard. The NWN series is great, but it isn't as magical as the BG series and is of a fairly different style IMO.

I'm doing a degree in software engineering and to be able to work as a game programmer on BGIII would be my dream job.

Syphon · Post by **Syphon** » Sun May 13, 2007 3:57 am

Since I've been writing for easily 7 years, along with text-based roleplays, I guess I can come up with a proper storyline. You know, one that's not like Halo 2's. If everybody gets to have a say in the story, you might as well stop developing because it's going to suck.

That being said, I know there's indeed plenty of talent (even though I just joined, I've been lurking for years) out on these boards. I say we should actually buy, borrow, leech, steal or otherwise acquire the rights to BG3 and get cracking!

Sator · Post by **Sator** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:38 pm

Uh, as i tried to explain before, we don't need the rights to the game per se.. What we need is a written letter of consent by the current holders of said rights, stating that we are allowed to make a *free* tribute game. Having the rights would effectively mean we are allowed to make a profit, and believe me if they were for sale, a big hungry shark like Microsoft or EA would gobble them up in nanoseconds, because even a turnip (maybe especially a turnip) knows that BG3 3 would be a goldmine. We don't have truckloads of money to pay for the full rights. Furthermore i completely agree with DW, in that having people commit wholeheartedly to the project will be the major issue. However, once we actually see a story outline, a few concept art sketches or even a render, we'll get exited enough.

On the side note i was talking with two of my co-students, and we decided to start on a project together (a 1-2 minute CG movie). We were really exited and i know both of them are quite good. I'm sure that i could potentially draft them in our ranks. And we all know that people that actually get work done is what we need

i have a bunch of projects to finish before june 15th but i guess after that i can start drawing things that come to mind and see where we get from there. And certainly, the story should be written by one person who's English skills and writing skills are up to the task, but he should take suggestions concerning the plot. That's why i said we need our own dev forum in which to discuss these things. We also would need a project leader, one who directs the flow of information between people and sets the goals we need to achieve. Otherwise everyone will be pulling their own end of the blanket

Seltzer · Post by **Seltzer** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:50 am

This really makes me wish I didn't have another 3.5 years to go in my software eng. degree.

I'd love to work on a game like BG3.

Naffnuff · Post by **Naffnuff** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:13 am

Lady Dragonfly wrote:I don't think any sequel would measure up to the original, especially if it is "home-made". Even if all legal and financial questions would be answered positively, and several talented people would find time to do the work, there is no guarantee that the result (in three years???) would satisfy anybody, creators included.

Oh, but if anybody should be involved, it's you, fair Lady. I read your little vignettes in the NPC wanted thread, and thought them most exquisite.

Gaslipstick · Post by **Gaslipstick** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:24 am

I'm pretty sure that Atari has the rights to the Baldur's Gate Series?
In 2004 they said that they intend to further develop the BG and Neverwinter Nights Series, but whether they still do.