To be pure or not to be pure?

[Elias De vere]

I've started another new game, and this time I'm playing as a human monk. the dilemma i've got it, should i so as pure monk all the way through, or multiclass with something else. I'm a lvl 5 at the moment, with Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10. i'm going to be a full line unarmed combatant. So, if there are any good ideas they would be appreciated, because it looks like in my opinion, monks get lots of good stuff near high levels.

[MrDeodorant]

Yeah, monk abilities really power up later on, because a lot of them are based on your level. I can't remember if there are any monk-oriented prestige classes in the game, because I don't really play monks, but unless there are some that say things like "Stack with monk levels" or "Add to a monk's Unarmed Strike", you're better off staying straight monk. A couple levels of rogue are always good, because Sneak Attack really adds to your damage potential, but you get really good spell resistance at level 13 and a really, really good attack (Quivering Palm) at level 15. At least, it's good in the pen-and-paper; they may have gimped it a bit, because the original effect doesn't translate well, but still, it's supposed to be good.

Long story short, you just keep getting better abilities as a monk, and if you've survived to level 5 already, you're going to be just fine.

[Snipercon]

There are some effective monk multi classes. While they are not notably better than a pure monk class, they are worth considering.

Monk(16)/Duelist(4)
You loose some unarmed dammage, some spell resistance, concealment once per day, and dammage resistance, but you gain 3 AC (4-1 at monk lv 20), haste x3, and an extra attack per round.

This one is quite specialized and likely won't work unless you plan carefully.

Human Monk(11)/Fighter(2)/Weapon Master Kama(7)
Feats: Weapon Focus, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Two Weapon Attack, Improved Two Weapon Attack, Awesome Two Weapon Attack, Weapon Specialization/Weapon Finnesse
You loose alot of monk stuff.
You get NINE (9) attack per round!

[Fljotsdale]

Imo, a Monk is MUCH better as pure Monk. But you have to be quite patient for the first few levels. After that, your pure Monk is the best fighter in the game. Mixing in other classes CAN confer advantages, but NOTHING on a level with pure Monk advantages.

Imo.

[Snipercon]

other classes CAN confer advantages, but NOTHING on a level with pure Monk advantages.

Imo.

Let me see if I can change your opinion.

Consider the build Monk(16)/Duelist(4) vs pure Monk(20).

- You get 2d8 unarmed dammage instead of 2d10.
+ You get an additional attack per round.

- You loose 2 DC on Quivering Palm
+ You get +1 to hit

- You loose 4 Spell Resistance
+ You gain 3 AC (with 18 IN including equipment)

- You loose 50% concealment 1/day
+ You gain haste 3/day

- You loose 1 Will/Fortitude saves
+ You gain 4 Reflex saves

- You loose 10/magic resistance (useless, at lv 20 what opponents don't use magical weapons?)
+ You gain +4 dodge AC vs Attacks of Opportunity (useless, you have at least 10 ranks in tumble right?)

- You heal 8 less HP
+ You have 8 more HP

Personally, I would take each one of the Duelist advantages over the pure Monk, but think anyone would agree that the tradeoffs are at least comparable.

[the_limey]

@Snipercon

I assume when you talk about "+ You gain 3 AC (with 18 IN including equipment)" you are refering to the Duelist's Canny Defence ability. Under v1.04 this ability is broken and does nothing. Further, if i recall properly, 18 Int would offer a +4 ac bonus?

[Snipercon]

Under v1.04 this ability is broken and does nothing.

Well that throws a big monkey wrench into my whole idea, although the theory is still sound.

Further, if i recall properly, 18 Int would offer a +4 ac bonus?

+3 vs a pure monk that gets their own +1 at lv 20.

[Elias De vere]

Hmm, these ideas seem quite good, the only thing is that my dude, isn't a high int character more a high strength guy, built for staying at the front, taking damage and dishing it out.

[Cyrinn]

I assume when you talk about "+ You gain 3 AC (with 18 IN including equipment)" you are refering to the Duelist's Canny Defence ability. Under v1.04 this ability is broken and does nothing. Further, if i recall properly, 18 Int would offer a +4 ac bonus?

I don't know about 1.04, but in 1.03 the AC bonus doesn't show up on your character sheet, but it shows up in your rolls, and that's what counts. I suspect the case is the same for 1.04, but you can revert if it's not.

Yeah, 18 INT should give you +4 AC.

[mr_sir]

I've read in this thread that some monk bonuses are not working in version 1.04. According to GB News, the final patch, 1.0.5, has now been released. I haven't looked at what is included in this patch but it may fix the issue.

[Fljotsdale]

@ Snipercon: Nope. Doesn't change my mind. Sure, SOME of those things from your Dualist look to be handy, but others wouldn't be worth the trade-off, imo.
My chars always have the best INT I can give them, but really, more than 14 for a Monk seems a waste, when the points would be better spent on WIS (Monk AC is modded by WIS, not INT, iirc), STR and CON.

But that's just my opinion.

[Snipercon]

others wouldn't be worth the trade-off, imo.

Which ones? I'm curious.

more than 14 for a Monk seems a waste

You don't need 14. Int 10 plus the band of intelect +8 will do nicely (if the duelist ability works properly of course).

In general, one of the often ignored benefits of Monks and Duelists is they turn stat boosting items into AC boosting items too. For example, some combination of Monk/Duelist would be able to get AC out of a Belt of Agility, Peripaf of Wisdom, and Headband of Intelect, VS say a fighter (in heavy armor) which would get no benefit from any of those items.

[Fljotsdale]

Mainly, the spell resistances. MUCH more to the point than AC, imo, considering the amount of magic chucked at you as the game progresses.
And losing 1 Will and 1 Fort saves in favour of 4 Reflex (and I know ALL are high for Monks), doesn't seem worth it for the simple reason that a lot of spells aimed at Will will have a better chance of affecting your Monk and leaving her helpless. What price +4 extra on Reflex in that case? Especially if she has 1 less Fort as well? No thanks!
Yeah, I know 1 point doesn't make MUCH difference, but it DOES make a difference. And if your Monk has decent Dex anyway, she already has good Reflex. So: not worth the trade-off. Imo.
Additional attacks, +1 to hit, and Haste 3 times a day, look good. Yes.

But... Haste potions, items, both will give the same effects (apart from +1 to hit). Again, not worth the trade-off, imo.

Sorry, Snipercon! I know you love your Monk/Dualist! And I'm certain he is very good, and fun to play.
I just prefer Pure Monk. :laugh:

[Drunkside]

Spell resistance is not so important couse monk gets evasion and both classes get lots of reflex.

[Snipercon]

@ Fljotsdale

Thanks for your reasons!! I appreciate them more than you might think. I've always had this social problem that I have to make sure know why they have an opinon.

Sorry, Snipercon! I know you love your Monk/Dualist! And I'm certain he is very good, and fun to play.
I just prefer Pure Monk. :laugh:

BTW, I have absolutly NO love for the BORING monk duelist. I am all about the Monk/Wizard/Pale Master/Duelist!!!

[Fljotsdale]

Heh! A guy who wants everything, huh?

[Saliira]

@ snipercon

I've started a Monk, because I liked them in PnP, and I'm intrigued by your suggestion of Monk/Duelist.

Do you have a recommended build progression for this type? Nothing in my character is set in stone, since I'm still in the tutorial with her (so I can start over with no remorse ).

Thanks!

[Snipercon]

@ snipercon

I've started a Monk, because I liked them in PnP, and I'm intrigued by your suggestion of Monk/Duelist.

Do you have a recommended build progression for this type? Nothing in my character is set in stone, since I'm still in the tutorial with her (so I can start over with no remorse ).

Thanks!

If you are talking about the Monk(16)/Duelist(4), the progression is not so important. The 4 Duelist levels primarily allow you to have 4 base attacks per round at level 20. Therefore, you don't get anything really special by meeting certain requirements earlier. Monk Lv 11 gives you two extra flurry of blows attacks, so

1 Monk - Weapon Finesse
2 Monk
3 Monk - Circle Kick
4 Monk
5 Monk
6 Monk - Dodge
7 Monk
8 Monk
9 Monk - Mobility
10 Monk
11 Monk
12 Duelist - Weapon Focus Unarmed
13 Monk
14 Duelist
15 Monk - Power Attack?
16 Duelist
17 Monk
18 Duelist - Cleave?
19 Monk
20 Monk

[Saliira]

Thanks. I'll read up on it and see if that's the way I want to take her.