I think this is the ultimate 3 person party:
Elf Sorcerer
Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger
Halfling Fighter/Thief
ultimate 3 char party!
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Cuchulain82
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UAI is strongest when you dual class a character that has item restrictions, like a Kensai or a Wizard Slayer. It makes a strong character epic.Mohag wrote:oh, well thats lame. i thought it did. so it isnt useful at all then really? so if i ever want to cast spells or use thieving abilities i have to take my armour of, bit annoying. ok thanks for your help
FYI- I think multiclassing with 3 classes is a big mistake in power-gaming terms. You'll be too much of a generalist. If you want to play it for roleplaying reasons that is a whole different animal, but for powergaming... I'm not a fan.
My ultimate 3 person party:
Human Fighter (Kensai or Berzerker)-> Th
Human Ranger->Cleric
Human Fighter (Kensai or Berzerker)-> Mage OR an Elven Sorcerer
Custodia legis
the fighter mage thief is awesome. anyway what hla's are good i havent really used them before? there doesnt really seem to be any point in UAI cause there are very few items that it means i can now use, so what hla should i use? they all look good but i am not really sure! also do you get them every level after you have got them once?
bearing in mind my party is
cleric/ranger
fighter/mage/theif
fighter/mage
what hla's can i not do without? if you know what i mean, thanks guys
bearing in mind my party is
cleric/ranger
fighter/mage/theif
fighter/mage
what hla's can i not do without? if you know what i mean, thanks guys
It's definitely worth taking UAI, there are a lot of items members of your party cannot use because they are class or alignment restricted or even personal.
You could use Jan's armor to get your physical damage resistance over 100 for example, raise your R/C with a cleric scroll, ...
I'd take plenty of GWW for the C/R and F/M, but not for the F/M/T who's more effective using spike traps and assassination.
Hardiness doesn't hurt since it can be used as pre-combat buff.
You'll get so many HLAs druing the game and you can afford to take all, even the useless ones. The ultimate party should be able to use as many different HLAs as possible.
You could use Jan's armor to get your physical damage resistance over 100 for example, raise your R/C with a cleric scroll, ...
I'd take plenty of GWW for the C/R and F/M, but not for the F/M/T who's more effective using spike traps and assassination.
Hardiness doesn't hurt since it can be used as pre-combat buff.
You'll get so many HLAs druing the game and you can afford to take all, even the useless ones. The ultimate party should be able to use as many different HLAs as possible.
Mohag, for uber party i recommend you to use 'Safe' XP Cap Remover (can be found here)
Just extract and put this two files in override folder, and your multiclasses will be able to achieve level 40 in every class.
Just extract and put this two files in override folder, and your multiclasses will be able to achieve level 40 in every class.
strong 3 person party
1. human - fighter dualled to mage
max points in CON, DEX & INT - there are lots of STR-enhancing items and potions, even spells, so whilst I would normally put points into it, in the longer term of the game it is not as important as it seems. WIS - saving throws, lore, "wish" - but there are potions
CHA -if you have a mage then surely a ring of wizardry and gaxx or acuity take up the 2 ring slots - you can swap the ring of human influence for the gaxx, but if you are maxing spells with acuity and wizardry or even 2 wizardry-level rings, you lose those spells when you remove the ring. always make the most important spells the first on the memorised list - any draining or other loss of spell levels starts at the end and works back (except where it is a random effect).
a mage with 100+ HP can withstand a lot more area effect "accidents" or saving throw fails.
...and a projected image of the mage that can lead the enemy into a spell-driven killing floor well away from the caster...and repeat...devastating.
there IS armour that can be used by a mage - but I think it is not available until ToB - sylvan chain, which can be enhanced - I have a caster with outrageous levels and items using it -with a choice of SotM or (enhanced) Staff of the Ram or "Giantwhacker" as it should be called - seeing those Fire Giants get knocked backwards by a lickle mage is amusing. not sure if the character is using that cloak that takes all magic damage. the character has HLAs of fallen planetar summoning etc and improved alacrity. not the sort of character whose pint you'd want to spill.
2. half-elf cleric/mage - Aerie may been a wuss for much of the game, but once she gets those levels up and can auto-trigger cleric spells, there is quite a lot of point having her around. arm her with crom freyr for 25 STR and super-buffs THEN project image her... you get the point. havoc.
clerics also get to summon skeleton warriors - who the cleric can bless and then make invisible - with their MR, 4 skels + an eye can be a powerful patrol.
alternatively - if you don't care about the undead issue - fighter/druid - like jaheira - two sets of HLAs, potentially good HP, buffing spells like iron skins and the capacity to cast insect plague/creeping doom to screw up enemy casters. there is one even better spell a druid gets - Natures Beauty. let me tell you a little story...
a party had to fight a seriously powerful dragon/spellcaster surrounded by minions (perhaps in BG1) - the creature was so powerful and it's allies so annoying that most of the party was getting wiped out and re-loading was getting tedious to say the least.
THEN - inspiration - learn natures beauty and re-try.
no matter how powerful the caster - being blinded and unable to do anything at range - such as imprisonment, maze, petrify whatever - the odds are radically altered in favour of the party.
a battle that I had lost an annoying number of times is won and a new tactic learned. when faced with a dragon or high level caster - NB may solve the problem.
3. multiclass thief - personally whilst I like the general usefulness of their abilities for getting through areas - thieves are limited in their solutions to problems as a whole. despite that, you'd want a thief to get you past traps and doors, even open chests. the high quality traps can be awesome in effect, but the problem is that a thief alone is unlikely to be able to solve that many complex problems - so multiclass. with multi-class, more alternatives are available.
with a mage you get a character with more HP and those useful thieving abilities tacked on to the mage, who levels slower than usual, but gets the benefit of more HLAs to offset that. use bracers for AC - can swap for gloves when needed.
with a cleric - better buffing and protection from undead - different HLAs (gaming terms, the cleric/thief is a bit odd)
with a fighter - more attacks and comes out of the mists - glimmer man. I think some armour is available that gives a respectable AC.
it is often worth checking that armour can't be used - dragon-scale for example still permits a ranger to use stealth - so I sometimes equip valgyar or minsc with it - slight reduction in AC, but stealth ability gained.
so my commendation would be :
1.fighter-mage or fighter/mage
2.cleric/mage or fighter/druid
3.thief/mage
it is about balance and what you want your team to be like.
1. human - fighter dualled to mage
max points in CON, DEX & INT - there are lots of STR-enhancing items and potions, even spells, so whilst I would normally put points into it, in the longer term of the game it is not as important as it seems. WIS - saving throws, lore, "wish" - but there are potions
CHA -if you have a mage then surely a ring of wizardry and gaxx or acuity take up the 2 ring slots - you can swap the ring of human influence for the gaxx, but if you are maxing spells with acuity and wizardry or even 2 wizardry-level rings, you lose those spells when you remove the ring. always make the most important spells the first on the memorised list - any draining or other loss of spell levels starts at the end and works back (except where it is a random effect).
a mage with 100+ HP can withstand a lot more area effect "accidents" or saving throw fails.
...and a projected image of the mage that can lead the enemy into a spell-driven killing floor well away from the caster...and repeat...devastating.
there IS armour that can be used by a mage - but I think it is not available until ToB - sylvan chain, which can be enhanced - I have a caster with outrageous levels and items using it -with a choice of SotM or (enhanced) Staff of the Ram or "Giantwhacker" as it should be called - seeing those Fire Giants get knocked backwards by a lickle mage is amusing. not sure if the character is using that cloak that takes all magic damage. the character has HLAs of fallen planetar summoning etc and improved alacrity. not the sort of character whose pint you'd want to spill.
2. half-elf cleric/mage - Aerie may been a wuss for much of the game, but once she gets those levels up and can auto-trigger cleric spells, there is quite a lot of point having her around. arm her with crom freyr for 25 STR and super-buffs THEN project image her... you get the point. havoc.
clerics also get to summon skeleton warriors - who the cleric can bless and then make invisible - with their MR, 4 skels + an eye can be a powerful patrol.
alternatively - if you don't care about the undead issue - fighter/druid - like jaheira - two sets of HLAs, potentially good HP, buffing spells like iron skins and the capacity to cast insect plague/creeping doom to screw up enemy casters. there is one even better spell a druid gets - Natures Beauty. let me tell you a little story...
a party had to fight a seriously powerful dragon/spellcaster surrounded by minions (perhaps in BG1) - the creature was so powerful and it's allies so annoying that most of the party was getting wiped out and re-loading was getting tedious to say the least.
THEN - inspiration - learn natures beauty and re-try.
no matter how powerful the caster - being blinded and unable to do anything at range - such as imprisonment, maze, petrify whatever - the odds are radically altered in favour of the party.
a battle that I had lost an annoying number of times is won and a new tactic learned. when faced with a dragon or high level caster - NB may solve the problem.
3. multiclass thief - personally whilst I like the general usefulness of their abilities for getting through areas - thieves are limited in their solutions to problems as a whole. despite that, you'd want a thief to get you past traps and doors, even open chests. the high quality traps can be awesome in effect, but the problem is that a thief alone is unlikely to be able to solve that many complex problems - so multiclass. with multi-class, more alternatives are available.
with a mage you get a character with more HP and those useful thieving abilities tacked on to the mage, who levels slower than usual, but gets the benefit of more HLAs to offset that. use bracers for AC - can swap for gloves when needed.
with a cleric - better buffing and protection from undead - different HLAs (gaming terms, the cleric/thief is a bit odd)
with a fighter - more attacks and comes out of the mists - glimmer man. I think some armour is available that gives a respectable AC.
it is often worth checking that armour can't be used - dragon-scale for example still permits a ranger to use stealth - so I sometimes equip valgyar or minsc with it - slight reduction in AC, but stealth ability gained.
so my commendation would be :
1.fighter-mage or fighter/mage
2.cleric/mage or fighter/druid
3.thief/mage
it is about balance and what you want your team to be like.
"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players"
The thing that stinks about dual classing is that the best duals involve going from a Fighter or Thief (kits included) to a spellcasting class. And the best HLAs in the game belong to the Fighter and Thief pools.
Missing out on GWW, UAI, and some traps is something I really wouldn't want to do.
Missing out on GWW, UAI, and some traps is something I really wouldn't want to do.
"A life is not important, except in the impact it has on other lives."
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
-- Jackie Robinson
Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu!
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Cuchulain82
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I kind of agree, but disagree at the same time. Here's what I consider BG2 gospel:Klorox wrote:The thing that stinks about dual classing is that the best duals involve going from a Fighter or Thief (kits included) to a spellcasting class. And the best HLAs in the game belong to the Fighter and Thief pools.
Missing out on GWW, UAI, and some traps is something I really wouldn't want to do.
-Theives have access to the best HLAs in the game- UAI and traps.
-Thieves have a skill set that makes playing the game much easier (F/R traps, pick locks, etc.)
-There is no high level thief npc in the standard set of npcs
-Warriors are most powerful at lower levels and become relatively less powerful as they progress.
-Wizards (includings sorcerers) are least powerful early on and become more and more powerful as they progress.
Here's a few of my observations that are based more on taste, so I wouldn't call them facts, but they are pretty close:
-Clerics are, unfortunately, not that powerful in the game. Divine spells are not as useful as Arcane spells and their combat abilites aren't not as powerful as the warrior classes
-Druids are riduclously underpowered (this cheeses me off to no end, btw)- shapeshifting sucks in the game and the XP chart is ridiculous.
With all this in mind, I take umbrage with a few of your conclusions Klorox:
-The best dual-classing options are not necessarily melee class (warrior/rogue) to spellcaster (Wizard or Priest). The best dual class combination is F-Th, especially when you take a kit. I mean, good golly- just google "Kensai+Thief" and see what comes up. By the time you get UAI, there is literally nothing your character can't do. Because you'll have access to all items including scrolls, you're a spellcaster, arcane and divine. Because you're a theif, you have all the thief skills. And because you're a fighter, you can melee or missle it out with the best of them.
-However, taking a straight mage or a straight cleric is dumb. Because of the way the XP tables worke, taking all your XP in a single spellcasting class essentially wastes a significant number of levels that could be spent somewhere else. What's more powerful- a 40th level cleric or a 9th level berzerker/40th level cleric? This is a no-brainer.
-Whether to dual class or multi-class depends more on style than anything else. Vondondu has written before that it depends on whether or not you have ToB (if ToB, then multi-; if not, then dual). I think it matter more what you want your character to be- I always envisioned my character to be a fighter who realized the limitations of his career and in a moment of epiphany decided to learn a whole new set of abilites that would make him more versatile than before. But hey, that's just me- if you want to play the archetypical evil halfling sneak-n'-stab psychopath, that's fun too.
Custodia legis
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sultanselim
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My ultimate choice is:
3 sorcerers.
or if you want a butcher to clear around fast and not bother with spells on every step you take:
1 kensai (half-orc)
2 sorcerer
(just spirit armor + improved haste the Kensai. He'll hack&slash anything)
or if you care about trap-unlock xp, and care about a healer-beneficial protection spellcaster,
1 kensai
1 sorcerer
1 cleric/thief
Though this way you'd have to sell most of the equipment you'll find.
Why sorcerer? Because a lvl 35+ sorcerer can summon a simulacrum who can cast lvl 9 spells. (and yet another simulacrum, who can do the same...)
Though it spoils the game...
Included is a screenshot of 1 sorcerer army:
3 sorcerers.
or if you want a butcher to clear around fast and not bother with spells on every step you take:
1 kensai (half-orc)
2 sorcerer
(just spirit armor + improved haste the Kensai. He'll hack&slash anything)
or if you care about trap-unlock xp, and care about a healer-beneficial protection spellcaster,
1 kensai
1 sorcerer
1 cleric/thief
Though this way you'd have to sell most of the equipment you'll find.
Why sorcerer? Because a lvl 35+ sorcerer can summon a simulacrum who can cast lvl 9 spells. (and yet another simulacrum, who can do the same...)
Though it spoils the game...
Included is a screenshot of 1 sorcerer army:
The world is composed of lies. The only exception is Death.
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AvatarOfLight
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AvatarOfLight
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That is correct, so it's usually a waste of HLA's to get the Deva/Planetar on every partymember that can.Celacena wrote:what are the limits on planatars/devas? I thought a party could only have one of those muthas as a time?
SPOILER
Though it helped me a lot in the final fight due to it's length.
Sage plays a paladin,
because other classes would be frowned upon for laying their hands on a wounded companion
because other classes would be frowned upon for laying their hands on a wounded companion
I have a final fight savegame - I am tempted to try my Nature's Beauty ruse - there must be a way to trump the end bosses with it more often. utterly screws casters, it seems to me.
in the past I used insect plague to disrupt casters, but blinding them is better.
my wand of cursing has been under-used.
I have more wands of spell-strike than casters - getting them well organised could be destructive too.
the sword Carsomyr has a debuffing effect along with the SotM - worth raising a simulcrum to tenser into a bashing de-buffer.
the helm of vailnor? allows unexpected simulcra, I recall.
in the past I used insect plague to disrupt casters, but blinding them is better.
my wand of cursing has been under-used.
I have more wands of spell-strike than casters - getting them well organised could be destructive too.
the sword Carsomyr has a debuffing effect along with the SotM - worth raising a simulcrum to tenser into a bashing de-buffer.
the helm of vailnor? allows unexpected simulcra, I recall.
"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players"
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Deadalready
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3 sorcerers eh? That's really a very powerful party, if unconventional. The same can be said of wild mages, as long as you know how exploit this class's special ability.
The answer to the best 3 member party (for power) depends on several factors:
Will you be doing ToB?
Will you remove the XP cap and add corrected HLA tables for triple classers?
Do you want the most powerful group at the end or in most of the the game?
Do you know all the tricks to maximize the power of the recommended group members?
The sorcerer, FMC, and FMT can eventually become a wickedly powerful group. (Three sorcerers would probably be even more powerful, if a bit monotonous.) The sorcerer, Ranger 7-Cleric, and Kensai 9-thief will have a very powerful mid game as a 3 party group. The cleric can toast liches - even demiliches eventually. The rogue will have access to nasty traps and backstabs and assorted thief cheese, including casting from the excess number of scrolls you find. The sorcerer, RC, and FT (multiclassing) will be more powerful than the duals eventually, but ultimately would be less powerful than the triple classers.
It's really hard to know the most powerful team in the ordinary game. You have to add many mods (such as toughest random dungeon spawns from Tactics and maximum HP for monsters from another mod, and others) to be able to discern the difference in power levels of some of the best teams.
The answer to the best 3 member party (for power) depends on several factors:
Will you be doing ToB?
Will you remove the XP cap and add corrected HLA tables for triple classers?
Do you want the most powerful group at the end or in most of the the game?
Do you know all the tricks to maximize the power of the recommended group members?
The sorcerer, FMC, and FMT can eventually become a wickedly powerful group. (Three sorcerers would probably be even more powerful, if a bit monotonous.) The sorcerer, Ranger 7-Cleric, and Kensai 9-thief will have a very powerful mid game as a 3 party group. The cleric can toast liches - even demiliches eventually. The rogue will have access to nasty traps and backstabs and assorted thief cheese, including casting from the excess number of scrolls you find. The sorcerer, RC, and FT (multiclassing) will be more powerful than the duals eventually, but ultimately would be less powerful than the triple classers.
It's really hard to know the most powerful team in the ordinary game. You have to add many mods (such as toughest random dungeon spawns from Tactics and maximum HP for monsters from another mod, and others) to be able to discern the difference in power levels of some of the best teams.
3 sorcerers seem nice, they can surely go through anything like a hot knife through butter. But the game offers equipment for only one sorcerer(Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power, Ring of Gaxx for the poison/disease resistance and the Staff of the Magi). The other two will always fall behind. And this well-equipped sorcerer will be worth three normal ones because his Simulacrum and Projected Image will also wear the same equipment.
BTW - a simulacrum lvl 18 is released from a 27th lvl sorcerer. 20 lvl simmy - most probably by a 31-32 lvl sorcerer.
My favourite powergaming party:
Sorcerer
Invoker/Thief
Invoker/Cleric
Invokers must be dualled at lvl 20. This way, you get a whole 3 slots in ninth level spells with few restrictions(only the enchantment school being unavailable with only one potent spell there - Greater Malinson. The sorcerer has it anyway)
A thief is a needed addition to any group. Not that a sorcerer with buffs and Knock cannot pass through anything locked/trapped unharmed, but this means you have to be on constant watch for traps. Strains your nerves simply, especially in a no-reload game. And a thief can save you even more trouble with traps set before most tough battles. Of course, backstabbing is also great. And finally - the UAI. This thing is simply overpowered. I heard in Improved Anvil they nerfed it to a less powerful but still useful Use Scrolls and Wands ability.
The thief/mage cannot wear any heavy armor without losing all of his powers. So what? What good is heavy armor anyway since you have the Spirit Armor&Blur spells and potions of Mind Focusing as many as you want! Keep your dexterity at 25 - for each point above 16 in dex you get bonus to AC. Also, the dexterity bonus augments your thieving skills and some fighting skills even.
The only type of armor which restricts my casting and yet I use sometimes with a mage/thief is the Human Flesh. Yet, if you are such a great armor-lover, consider wearing the Melodic/Bladesinger chain. This thing restricts only your thieving skills, and not too much at that.
Cleric's combat and protection buffs are needed IMO, but yet a cleric has to be a potent arcane caster in order to be in my top 3. And here are many interesting spell combinations with spell sequencers and contingency/chain contingency. For instance, you can store all of those nice long-time casting priest spells in sequencer/trigger and release them in a flash and in great numbers(3 instead of 1). One of the most useful and yet simple combos available only to a C/M - a minor sequencer loaded with Chant and Bless. And all of those nice lvl 7 priest spells can be loaded in a Chain Contingency also...
I am sure though that in battle situations this is not the most powerful team, but overall, considering the whole gameplay - it is.
BTW - a simulacrum lvl 18 is released from a 27th lvl sorcerer. 20 lvl simmy - most probably by a 31-32 lvl sorcerer.
My favourite powergaming party:
Sorcerer
Invoker/Thief
Invoker/Cleric
Invokers must be dualled at lvl 20. This way, you get a whole 3 slots in ninth level spells with few restrictions(only the enchantment school being unavailable with only one potent spell there - Greater Malinson. The sorcerer has it anyway)
A thief is a needed addition to any group. Not that a sorcerer with buffs and Knock cannot pass through anything locked/trapped unharmed, but this means you have to be on constant watch for traps. Strains your nerves simply, especially in a no-reload game. And a thief can save you even more trouble with traps set before most tough battles. Of course, backstabbing is also great. And finally - the UAI. This thing is simply overpowered. I heard in Improved Anvil they nerfed it to a less powerful but still useful Use Scrolls and Wands ability.
The thief/mage cannot wear any heavy armor without losing all of his powers. So what? What good is heavy armor anyway since you have the Spirit Armor&Blur spells and potions of Mind Focusing as many as you want! Keep your dexterity at 25 - for each point above 16 in dex you get bonus to AC. Also, the dexterity bonus augments your thieving skills and some fighting skills even.
The only type of armor which restricts my casting and yet I use sometimes with a mage/thief is the Human Flesh. Yet, if you are such a great armor-lover, consider wearing the Melodic/Bladesinger chain. This thing restricts only your thieving skills, and not too much at that.
Cleric's combat and protection buffs are needed IMO, but yet a cleric has to be a potent arcane caster in order to be in my top 3. And here are many interesting spell combinations with spell sequencers and contingency/chain contingency. For instance, you can store all of those nice long-time casting priest spells in sequencer/trigger and release them in a flash and in great numbers(3 instead of 1). One of the most useful and yet simple combos available only to a C/M - a minor sequencer loaded with Chant and Bless. And all of those nice lvl 7 priest spells can be loaded in a Chain Contingency also...
I am sure though that in battle situations this is not the most powerful team, but overall, considering the whole gameplay - it is.
It's not quite that bad. UAI usually works as expected in Improved Anvil but often does not work for Improved Anvil's upgraded items. Thieves are nerfed, in general, in Improved Anvil. And neither 3 sorcerers nor your suggested group would easily survive Improved Anvil IMO. Improved Anvil is a whole different story.... In Improved Anvil, multiclass fighter-mages or triple classers do much better. And for tactical purposes you may choose other classes (perhaps even a pure single class) in your party of 3. The sorcerer, FMT, and FMC should do well even in Improved Anvil, but you'll have to really be an expert player...Saros wrote:And finally - the UAI. This thing is simply overpowered. I heard in Improved Anvil they nerfed it to a less powerful but still useful Use Scrolls and Wands ability.