The concerns of balance when making a character…

Anara · Post by **Anara** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:26 am

Usually, in these types of games, I try to not only focus on great statistics for my character, but also, make him/her seem plausible, or believable, if you will…that means that I want to give thought to that roleplaying part or “feel” as well…

In that context, I’ve got a couple of questions regarding the making of a character in terms of class, attributes (here I mean Strength, Dexterity, and so forth…).

First, I thought of creating a Ranger class hero…it seemed fine; I imagined myself as a sort of anti-hero of almost, a dark, sombre figure, uncertain of his birth, station, and indeed, most anything…
But then I wondered; the storyline, if I am not mistaken, states that one’s character has lived almost his whole life within the walls of Candlekeep…there’s really not much room for development or training of the sort of characteristics and skills belonging to a Ranger…or so it seems…

Now, a Fighter, I could have some faith or belief in; training with the local guards, perhaps the Gatewarden could throw in a couple of sessions and so on…likewise, as perhaps as a scholar – with one of the Realm’s most hailed libraries just at hand – seemed plausible as well…so, a Cleric, or mayhap a Mage, would be a preferred choice in this regard as well, in my opinion…

So, having finally chosen a class under these particular circumstances and concerns, my eye set on those attributes, and getting just the right “roll of dice” for my particular class, in this case a Fighter (I know it seems a sort of beginner’s class, but my mind was on some of the Fighter Sub-Classes available in Baldur’s Gate II).

I kept rolling until I got some fairly high numbers, where I, if I was lucky – and patient – could get, say, 18 in all attributes, except a fairly low stat in Wisdom and perhaps intelligence. And then I thought to myself…this isn’t really what I wanted with this particular character; certainly not a character – even if he is a Fighter – with low Wisdom…that would almost be like Sarevok to some extend…and that I never wanted him to be…

So, have any of you similar concerns in making a character; that is, with focus on a certain balance between not only the statistics of the character, but also with concern of the roleplaying aspect; and in this regard choosing attributes not only in the highest numbers, but what seems plausible and right for the character instead?...

Sorry if the post is a bit long and inconsistent in places (I’m not English).

- Anara

Rabain · Post by **Rabain** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:33 am

It depends who you talk to. I never min/max stats because I think its lame. Other players think its okay just because you can do it.

If you were being strict you would roll stats 2 or 3 times, take the highest roll and re-allocate the results as needed for the class you wish to play. This should give you a chance at getting a decent character on any playthrough of the game.

I'd never go below 7 or 8 in any stat, especially Int as to be honest even if you plan to play a muscle-bound half-orc a lower score than 7 in Int would probably mean that he wouldn't have survived very long even with his strength because he simply can't grasp the concepts involved in tactics and strategy. As an adventurer he just wouldn't have survived long after making his first enemy.

Thats if you're role-playing. If you're not then of course your brute force half-orc beats all.

Anara · Post by **Anara** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:01 pm

Some more thoughts

Why, thank you for your answer!

I think it corresponds very well on some levels, on what I what would call "the feel of the game" (I've used this term on another forum, on another name, it has to be said).

The experience of some games, for me, goes deeper than the simple dynamics and mechanics of the game; there is a certain enthusiasm there that cannot seem to be explained by mere statistics...this can take many shapes and forms...sometimes in an almost childlike expectation of some sort...this is not meant derogatively, to be sure...

In an experience like Baldur's Gate - the whole Child of Bhaal saga, that is - the roleplaying part of the game, constitutes for what might be considered as "the feel of the game"...it's the storyline, the characters, the dialogue, and so forth...

Also, I think there are deeper layers in some video-games; they be cultural, psychological, philosophical, historical (for example in terms of parallels), and so on...I'm hereby saying, that a game like Baldur's Gate cannot be disregarded as being stupid, not culturally relevant, and so on. It might very well be, in my opinion, that it carries the exact same torch in some manner, that novels, movies, and art, also does...to some extend that is...

Not withstanding that most videogames does not possess these attributes, of course...I've played a lot of those myself, it has to be said...

Hmm...it seemed like I was rambling a bit there (Jan Jansen, anyone? - Sorry, a reference from another game), so my apologies for that...

Anyway, my point being that I'm glad that I'm not quite alone in my concerns in creating a character...there...I could have written just that sentence for an answer, really...

- Anara

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:14 pm

About the ranger: when you start playing your char he/she is lvl 1. What would it take to become a totally unexperienced ranger? A few outdoor trips with Gorion and some of his friends from his adventuring days? I think it's not implausible.

Anara · Post by **Anara** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:26 pm

You do have a point there, I see...

There was another concern with the Ranger class - in my choosing one such, that is - something along the lines of weapon proficiency, where I thought the Fighter had more options in his favor. Also, I looked upon some of the subclasses for the Ranger in Baldur's Gate II, and I did not find them as interesting as the Fighter's...

I had not thought upon the fact, that one practically begins one's adventure with zero experience, not having seen much of the world, not having quested and fighting monsters, and such...

So, as you say, it apparently is quite possible - and plausible - do develop interests as those befit a Ranger...and, to be sure, I'm almost certain that Imoen and one's character would try to sneak out into the wilds beyond the walls of Candlekeep once in a while...

Or, it could be, that during the characters scholarship - being fatigued by ancient scrolls and dust-covered books - he found himself seeking into the wilds, just beyond the walls of the Keep...

...and during one of these trips being enamoured by nature and it's wildlife...

Or, as you remark as well, Gorion himself could have been the cause...

Anyway, thank you for the reply.

- Anara.

Rabain · Post by **Rabain** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:27 pm

It's an interesting area to think about in any game where you start out with no experience.

The one I've seen discussed the most was when BGtutu came out and offered kits to BG1 characters and someone asked; how does charname manage to become a kensai when living all their life in Candlekeep?

But that's half the fun of the game, you can make up so much to fill in the gaps and you decide your characters attitude aswell in the end.

You could also ask how Gorion or anyone else in Candlekeep didn't notice that you were Chaotic Evil and were just waiting for your chance to stab him in the back when Sarevok got there first.

Interesting indeed.

Anara · Post by **Anara** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:58 am

Some interesting notions there, Rabain.

I agree with the innate difficulty of starting out as a Kensai in BGtutu...as I understand the class, it's a sort of Master Swordsman...and to be honest...none of the Keeps' local Guards seemed to have that kind of skill to help one achieve that...

Mayhap the Gatewarden...

I would have thought - in the realm of roleplaying - that it would be possible to become a Kensai, if, for example through one's adventures and questing throughout the Sword Coast in Baldur's Gate I....

This next paragraph sort of belongs to the Baldur's Gate 2: Shadow of Amn forum, but it relates quite closely to this.

Or it could be that it came to be, that during one of Jon Irenicus' experiments, he helped to "unlock the potential within"...this has some other results as well, to be sure...

I think it's nice to have a game like Baldur's Gate, where one actually is given the space to, as you say, "fill in the gaps", yourself...It makes the character, well, almost, "you"...if you get my meaning...

The notion of making a Chaotic Evil is an interesting one, for sure...how couldn't they have noticed?

Now, a Neutral Evil character seems a sort more calculative and cold, so thereby one could just be "pretending" to be friendly, outgoing, helpful, and so on, during the course of one's life in Candlekeep...or so it would seem...

Anyway, thank you once again for your reply...it's a most interesting discussion in my view...

- Anara.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:49 am

Anara wrote:So, have any of you similar concerns in making a character; that is, with focus on a certain balance between not only the statistics of the character, but also with concern of the roleplaying aspect; and in this regard choosing attributes not only in the highest numbers, but what seems plausible and right for the character instead?

For me, games like Baldur's Gate are all about escapism. It's just a lot of fun being able to visit and lose myself in another world. A game's ability to pull off this "escapism" is achieved through the suspension of disbelief. This can be acomplished using atmospheric music, richly detailed gameworlds, engrossing story, deep characters, non-gamey gameplay, etc.

With that said, roleplaying a character with 18 18 18 3 3 3 ability scores blows Suspension-of-Disbelief out of the water. I'd never do it, because for me, that's not what visiting Baldur's Gate is about.

But even so, my dude still has to be averagely above-average. Using an editor, I assign 18 17 16 15 14 13 scores to the various abilities, based partly on class, and based partly on myself being the protagonist. My happy medium.

Anara · Post by **Anara** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:44 am

Quite interesting notions about escapism and "suspension of disbelief" there, CFM!

While, in some games, I prefer realism; in the context of sports games, I'd like my players to behave and act in accordance to what they would do "in real life"...they have to move in a specific manner, run in certain patterns and so on...like they would according to tactics in real life...

In terms of roleplaying games, what I seek is perhaps not realism, per say...but I have to "believe in it", to some extend. Does this make any sense?

I do not know exactly how the game perpetuates this kind of belief, but some of the things you mentioned is indeed a factor thereof...atmospheric music, the depthness of the characters, and a well-developed (and believeable?) storyline, and so on...

It seems like we have some of the similar concerns in regard to character-making...

- Anara

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:56 am

Fighter is one of the classes that undoubtedly "works" for a character who grew up in Candlekeep. Most of them can work, if you come up with a story and use some imagination, but there's just no arguing a fighter.

If you really want to stick to the storyline (growing up in Candlekeep, getting there around the same time as Imoen, and being about the same age as her), you'll have to limit yourself to Halfling, Human, Half-Elf and Half-Orc.

A multiclassed F/M, F/T, or F/M/T really works well too.

Rabain · Post by **Rabain** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:07 pm

Just on a side note: I was looking at the map of Faerun (see my sig) and noticed that its about 50 miles from Candlekeep to Beregost and about 150 miles from Beregost to Baldurs Gate.

That leaves quite a lot of distance for charname to go to get any kind of life experience other than wandering around the local countryside. Was charname allowed out of Candlekeep to wander? Could you imagine spending 16 years of your life not being able to travel outside an area barely 100 meters in diameter? I think I'd be Chaotic Evil!

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:24 pm

Except that you're portrayed as a pretty happy kid, although a bit of a trouble-maker. I guess if it's all you know, you'd be pretty happy.

BTW, going out for a stroll with Gorion would prove to be quite expensive after a while!

Anara · Post by **Anara** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:03 pm

Well...after viewing the responses in this thread, I must admit, that I probably had a fairly narrow view of how one could make a character in the Child of Bhaal saga...I think perhaps that I followed the storyline too closely...

I guess it's only one's imagination that sets the limit..although, to be sure, to stray too far from the storyline proper, would perhaps result in a sort of distant character, too far removed from the "feel of Faerun"...whatever that means...

I do tend to immerse myself quite deeply into the particular game that I'm playing, IF that game has the proper depth to do so, of course...which is certainly the case with Baldur's Gate...for instance, in sort of preparation for playing the series all anew after a long time of absence, I chose to, well, first of all make myself a pot of coffee, and then I read all the texts at the "Books of Lore" link, at the Baldur's Gate II section of this website.

Just to get "the feel" right, you know?...

...I'm still amazed how I, to this day, can get this sort of excitement from a game that's almost 10 years old...aye...it's been a long time...

- Anara

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:11 am

A Bard seems like a natural choice for a character who grew up in a place like Candlekeep. It actually makes more sense to me than a Thief.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:16 am

Anara wrote:In terms of roleplaying games, what I seek is perhaps not realism, per say...but I have to "believe in it", to some extend. Does this make any sense?

Of possible relevance, I looked up the word 'context' on dictionary.com, with one of the definitions as follows:

The set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.

Here's maybe the relevance:

I find it interesting that I dig the Matrix movies, but find the James Bond movies somewhat rediculous. When Bond does crazy stunts, it makes me want to cough "<profanity removed>". Yet stunts in the Matrix are amazzzzing, because of course they are in a computer program world, so of course they could really do that! I buy it, because of the context of the fictional universe that frames the story.

Anara wrote:Well...after viewing the responses in this thread, I must admit, that I probably had a fairly narrow view of how one could make a character in the Child of Bhaal saga...I think perhaps that I followed the storyline too closely...

I guess it's only one's imagination that sets the limit..although, to be sure, to stray too far from the storyline proper, would perhaps result in a sort of distant character, too far removed from the "feel of Faerun"...whatever that means...

In the context of the BG storyline, with your character's biological father being Bhaal the Lord of Murder, and who-knows-what being your mother, I figure you could justify your character being just about anything.

Let us take a moment to toast our discussion of realistic story elements in a game that allows us to command our Bhaalspawn half-sister to cast a fireball at a dragon. Cheers.

Anara wrote:I do tend to immerse myself quite deeply into the particular game that I'm playing, IF that game has the proper depth to do so, of course...which is certainly the case with Baldur's Gate...for instance, in sort of preparation for playing the series all anew after a long time of absence, I chose to, well, first of all make myself a pot of coffee, and then I read all the texts at the "Books of Lore" link, at the Baldur's Gate II section of this website.

Just to get "the feel" right, you know?

Realistic roleplaying, powergaming, atmosphere, story, or even coffee... whatever helps you almost forget that you're sitting in a chair in front of a computer screen... I say Rock and Roll.

Anara · Post by **Anara** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:38 am

Just a couple of more thoughts

...there are indeed a lot of different approaches to the world of gaming...the roleplaying part being just one of them...

The concept of context - in the definition you brought up, that is - is quite interesting concerning the subject matter, I think...and seems relevant as well...I must ponder on this some more...

In regard to realism...it's indeed a tricky one, isn't it? At least it seems so to me...sure, the game contains, as you said, realistic story elements, and perhaps they are the ones that makes the game and storyline work so well?...

Indeed, there has to be a contribution from the player as well to some extend...whether the approach is powergaming, roleplaying, or whatever one desires...

And coffee helps!

- Anara

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:40 pm

Creating a realistic character and atmosphere is so important. I remember the first time I played and encountered my first wolf right outside Candlekeep. I was cocky and charged it with longsword drawn....then ended up running for my life with 2 hit points, lol... I was genuinely in fear for my character. I took the first set of stats the game rolled for me and they sucked but I took them nonetheless. And, after completing Throne of Bhaal with my now godlike paladin, I was depressed that it was over... Whatever it takes for you to create a sense of reality within the game, DO IT.

[HTML]The notion of making a Chaotic Evil is an interesting one, for sure...how couldn't they have noticed?
Now, a Neutral Evil character seems a sort more calculative and cold, so thereby one could just be "pretending" to be friendly, outgoing, helpful, and so on, during the course of one's life in Candlekeep...or so it would seem...
[/HTML]
As for Chaotic Evil, with my happy, evil little bundle of death (halfling Fighter/Thief), second run-through. I started him out normal and the more killing he did and more his power grew, the more evil he grew... So you don't have to start out evil, just let that grow as the rest of your character grows...

Faendalimas · Post by **Faendalimas** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:13 am

This has probably been said somewhat here already..

Baldur's Gate you are creating a level 1 beginner character. Hence your dice rolls (however you choose to do it) are more about creating your characters natural tendencies and abilities towards a class, rather than a representation of prior training, you don't really have any. You have lead a rather sheltered life to date. You then get thrown out into the world of BG and you develop to this goal.

Also as stated by others the game is to have fun and enjoy it, however you decide to do that is up to you and there is no incorrect way to do it. If you are enjoying the game the way you play it, what's wrong with it?

On the notion of Chaotic Evil, one I have had loads of pain with after developing the Neverwinter Nights PW Menzoberranzan. What a lot of people think is Chaotic Evil is really what we came to call Chaotic Stupid. Cold blooded murder of everyone in sight is not being Chaotic Evil its virtual suicide, a truly evil character does not openly murder, they get others to do it for them or they do not get caught in the act when they do, its calculated. The Chaos side of this would add a notion of spontaneity to this however to get away with it it still has to be done with caution. Unfortunately I always felt the downfall of BG was for evil characters, they do not play out well under the framework and plotlines of the game.

Cheers, Faen

Anara · Post by **Anara** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:03 pm

Why, thank you for your thoughts...

I certainly agree with the notion of atmosphere in the game...unlike many other games of the same genre that I've experience, you're really immersed in this world, from a somewhat innocent beginning, where even an encounter with a mere wolf poses an immense threat to your life and existence...He he...oh yes, if I remember correctly, my very first fall was to one such, just outside the walls of cozy Candlekeep...so much for a long adventure, eh?..:laugh:

I must admit, I first thought of character-making in a sort of pre-made way, if that makes any sense, rather than realizing that it's probably more about developing a character along the way, while you're adventuring.

As for the particular question of alignment, I have to say, than in this case, with my Fighter, that I'll stick with my Chaotic Good character. But indeed, it's quite interesting to hear the thoughts of how a Chaotic Evil character might behave, what mannerisms he might have towards other people, and so on. The question of how he manages to focus, maintain his goals, keeping progressive and so on, is quite intriguing, in my view.

For instance, I wonder how Sarevok managed to gain the position that he did among the royalty in Baldur's Gate, to keep his focus on the iron crisis, the caravans, bandit groups, and so on...perhaps he just knew the right people?....

- Anara

Nero · Post by **Nero** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:13 pm

Well, I definitely think it's a very relevant and I consider the "reality aspect" every time I generate a new character. One of the things I'm very annoyed by is the fact that the druid class is a very improbable class for the protagonist. I know that Jaheira has been raised by druids since she was a child, so of course she's a druid. But it seems unlikely that the protagonist should have had any contact with these mysterious priests

Of course that's annoying when I find druids pretty cool and very fascinating. I've made a lot of excuses but none of my self-made stories can explain the druid class.
That has actually ruined a bit of my pleasure when playing BG.

The fighter seems very likely, as does the mage (the protagonist is raised by none other than Gorion, whose close friend is Elminster)
The thief class is legitimated by Imoen. And I guess, as long as you're religious enough, you could qualify for a cleric.

As for stats (STR, DEX...), I think that everything can be justified by the tainted blood of the protagonist, and this is my excuse when raising more than one ability to 18. But I never put anything below 10, guess I'm a bit vain.
But I think this is still plausible, and (weird as it may seem) I compare the protagonist with myself and consider if I could play the part

Finally, I apologize for my English. I'm from Denmark so English is only my second language.

-Nero