What's you biggest gripe with the D&D rules?

[GawainBS]

Hello

With which aspect of the current (or previous) ruleset are you most frustrated?
I, for one, think that DEX plays too small a roll in combat. Making efficient warriors with high STR gives me too much the feeling that they are big lumbering oafs. I know, there's Weapon Finesse, but that's only for certain weapons. Besides, it only works well with certain builds. (I am one of those people that wonder why everybody thinks they're a genius because they use Finesse... )
IMHO, it should grant (minor) boni to hit or something. I'm thinking along the lines of DEX in Arcanum, Wizardry VIII (the games with the most "realistic" stats-combat interaction), Might & Magic, Vampire P&P, etc...

So, what do you guys feel that should be different? I'm not asking about actually thinking up different rules, but just what you feel isn't "right".

[Siberys]

but just what you feel isn't "right".

Psionics.


As for the dex thing, There are several cases where dex becomes an important role in an attack, more than just weapon finesse, but would dex really apply to swinging a giant axe down on your enemy? How about a one handed hammer, or a longsword, it's not so much about precision at that point, it's about power.

Precision belongs to the smaller and/or finer weapons, like Rapiers or Whips, but bastard swords and longswords, axes, hammers, and spears aren't so much precision, they're just power.

[GawainBS]

Swords are all about precision, just like spears. Apart from that, every weapon requires a certain degree of manipulation capabilities. I'm not argueing that DEX should be the end-all, be-all of combat. Let's put it this way: two fighters, both with high STR and a twohanded axe. If one of the two has a higher DEX, it should grant him more of a bonus than Initiative (maybe) and AC (which is restricted by armour anyway). But I'll drop the topic about weaponwielding, since it would stray way beyond topic.

I, for one, am absolutly fond of Psionics. It allows greater flexibility and allows you to do things which aren't confined to spells. (I'm thinking beyond powers; also things like Psionic Focus etc.)
Why don't you like it?

[Siberys]

I, for one, am absolutly fond of Psionics. It allows greater flexibility and allows you to do things which aren't confined to spells. (I'm thinking beyond powers; also things like Psionic Focus etc.)
Why don't you like it?

Because any beginner of psionics can make either Psion, Psy-Warrior, or Wilder incredibly broken. And that's the reason why, is because you have much less of limitations.

Psionics are the type of rules that you have to try to NOT make it broken, otherwise you're gonna be doing twice as much damage and surviving twice as long as any other party member.

[GawainBS]

Well, the assumption that Psionics are inherently broken, is based on nothing. Over at the Wizards boards, there is a whole thread listing why they are exactly finely balanced. If you want, I'll search for the thread.
If you want to see something broken or overpowered, look at the core Druid, Cleric or Wizard.
Anyway, if you don't like the flavour of Psionics, that's fine.

[Siberys]

It's not an assumption, but prior knowledge. I have about 7 characters that differ from what WoTC board members say about psionics being balanced.

People believe psionics are broken, they assume this because most psions do a lot of damage. So do wizards, but my theory isn't based on Damage or DC's for powers.

It's the book as a whole, skills and feats, classes and abilities, even some of the magic items are much more powerful than that of a standard magic item. The psionics book, not only was meant for a higher powered campaign, but the creators even SAID it was meant for this. These theories that say psionics arent broken, those theories are based upon non-broken psionic characters, and how to make them that way. But it really is easy to make a broken psionic character, and not with just powers alone.

[GawainBS]

It's just as easy to make a broken core-only Druid.
But your gripe is easily solved: don't use Psionics.
I don't like Spiked Chains, because they are implausible weapons and horribly out-of-line with the other weapons, so I don't use them.

[Siberys]

Spiked chains aren't implausible, they're used all the time quite effectively.

Ancient China: Yo-Yo's were basic blunt versions of spiked chains.
Medieval Times: Bolas's and Handle-free Flail's were spiked chains.
Kill Bill: Gogo used a spike chain on Kiddo.
Feudal Japan: Spiked Chains were a common weapon for Ninja Assassins.

They're hard to use, but they're a lot more common than you think.

[GawainBS]

Oh, seriously, Kill Bill as a reference?
Bolas have their own entry and yoyo's being a blunt version... Well, then it isn't a spiked chain anymore.
Apart from this: the weapon is out of balance with the other weapons.

[Fiberfar]

Oh, seriously, Kill Bill as a reference?

It's as good as refering to a game

[Siberys]

Oh, seriously, Kill Bill as a reference?

Just because the fighting is fake doesn't mean the weapons are.

[GawainBS]

It's like basing your knowledge of physics on Star Trek.
I shudder when I see how they wield katana's in Kill Bill, so I'm a little bit sceptical when someone refers to that film to point out that a spiked chain would be a feasible weapon, like represented in D&D. Am I convinced that a chain can be a weapon? Yes. Am I convinced that it is the near-godlike weapon it's depicted in the rulebooks? No.
All in all, it's a preech to balance the weapons to each other.

[Siberys]

I shudder when I see how they wield katana's in Kill Bill

Considering I've taken Kendo and Koryu as well as studied a bit into Aikido, the first kill bill is rather practical, basic, and effective in terms of Katana wielding. The second movie was a bit showy, but just as realistic in the actual martial arts fighting.

In fact, Kill Bill is one of the few martial arts movies that bases the martial arts on actual styles of fighting. Movies like The Last Samurai and House of Flying Daggers, Ultraviolet, Hero, those are the fake showy ineffective styles of martial arts.

Anyways, Spiked Chain, yeah it's broken in DND, that doesn't make it a fake sounding weapon in real life as your original point seems to have been. A lot of things are broken in DND, but can also be easily fixed to a DM's desire.

[GawainBS]

The spiked chain as superweapon is no "real life" weapon.
Secondly, Kendo = whacking someone with a shinai. It's different from wielding a blade. It's a good reference for the few blocks and stances. Striking with a blade is better referenced by Iaido. (Because doing it in Kendo would soon leave you without sparring partners. )
I wonder how they came up with the scene where they grind the edges (Gasp! Horror!) of the katanas against each other and "bind" the blades, leaning in close together. It's something that's only feasible with weapons that have true hilts, like most Western swords.
But let's get it back on topic, shall we?

Another issue I have, is the way skill ranks are capped by level. I understand the necessity for the gaming system, but it leads to some odd things: a very good craftsman in the glassblowing sector, for example, has about 10 ranks in Craft (Glassblowing). According to the rules, he would have to be an Expert (most likely) level 7. This would also imply, due to HP & BAB, that he probably can take one 3 or 4 militiamen. (Level 1 Warriors).
It can get a little awkward when your players are interacting with NPC's... I think it is because, at the core, D&D is about combat: each and every level up enhances your combat abilities. This isn't the case in some other systems.

[spartan 116]

on the topic of psionics.....
our dm was having a hard time with one of the pc psionics because she couldnt really be hurt and had a great amount of damage output

but...put them up against psion killers and they balance out well
its all what you put them up against or getting them out of their comfort area


as for the skill points...consider instead of the craftmen taking levels from the core that they take a "commoner" level which doesnt give out hp and bab but skills instead. or perhaps instead gives out a feat in said profession?

at the core DND is about combat yes, but its combat for the pcs not the entire world

[GawainBS]

There's nothing a Psion can do that a wizard can't do better.
The world of D&D isn't about combat, but the game is. A huge difference between the two.
And as long as max ranks are tied to level, that same issue will re appear. To raise ranks, you have to level, which increases your BAB & HP. (Even for commoner.) I only know of two classes that don't increase your BAB, and those aren't exactly the classes an expert or commoner will take. ;-)

[Siberys]

There's nothing a Psion can do that a wizard can't do better.

You fail to prove this.

Here's an example of a sigle power that tops the most common wizard spell.

Swarm of Crystals :: d20srd.org

Magic Missile does 1D4+1 damage per 2 levels, to a maximum of 5D4+5, a maximum of 25 damage.

Swarm of crystals however, has no limit. Though it be slashing damage and not force damage, it still hits automatically, and it hits multiple targets with the same amount of damage.

Targeting multiple people with magic missile divides the damage. There are a slight few more monsters with slashing damage reduction, but there are a lot of monsters that can easily resist magic missile as well.

So, Magic missile having a maximum of 25 points of damage versus a second level radius effect slashing damage power that has only a maximum of your level.

Next Point-
Psionic Feats :: d20srd.org
Psionic Feats :: d20srd.org

These two feats together can be extremely broken. The reason is, even though you can only do one every other round without taking damage, or as often as you like taking damage, it increases your effective manifester level to heighten more and more damage. Not only that, but it IMPROVES as you level up your character.

Here's a third point you should notice, psionic meditation allows you to gain psionic focus as a move action rather than a standard/full round whatever it is action. So, an 8th level psion can be the equivelant of a 10th level psion at the cost of very few extra power points and NOTHING else. A wizard trying to do the same thing would have to increase the spell level making his ability to cast that spell less frequent, plus he has to prepare the spell this way, and plus it has limited effects. A sorcerer may not have to prepare it this way, but he has all the other drawbacks plus a full round of casting time. A psion can do this in a standard action, leaving him the ability to still move, or quite possibly cast another psionic power provided it's casting time is move action or less, and there are quite a few.

Not only that, but the psion has versatility with these feats and the usage of power points. The wizard must divide his spells up into slots per level, having only a per day effect. Same with sorcerers, they can only use a certain number of a certain level spell per day. Psions have very little limitation, as there powers only have an initial cost of points that can be used on any single power and amplified as much or as little as the psion pleases.

Third point-
Thrallherd :: d20srd.org

This class is extremely broken on it's own. You only take a -2 penalty to manfiesting level by the end of the class, but look at some of the abilities.

First, Thrallherd. It's the same thing as leadership, except your thrallherd level is counted twice with everything else, and your minion is only -1 character level instead of -2. Now, it's a minimum of 15th level to have completed this class.

Lets assume the standards, a party of four characters including the thrallherd, which is pure average. All 15th level characters all built to any custom desire. On top of this, you have an extra 14th level character which can be anything the thrallherd wishes, such as another psionic character (which is likely) as well as a 13th level character which can ALSO be a psionic character (also likely). So, this increases the party level dramatically, even if the minions get NPC equipment and are slightly lower level.

On top of this, the abilities allow the thrallherd to dominate creatures of any type with extreme ease, requiring her to only increase the power point usage for the DC. This would make it easy to dominate any of the fighter/barbarian like creatures in DND, such as a giant or dire animal, anything with a low will save will be willing to die for the thrallherd for the next few days, for no reason at all. This eleminates much of the challenges of a normal everyday party, which in the game of DND, the classes provided are supposed to be there to adapt and survive against the challenges, not stomp on them and make it extremely easy to bypass.

There are 3 good reasons why psionics are broken, and I still stand by my statement that in psionics, you have to try to make a character NOT broken.

[GawainBS]

First off, so I have a link of my own:
Myth: The XPH is overpowered - Wizards Community
How well balanced are the psionic classes? - Wizards Community

When Psions pay powerpoints to augment their powers up to their maximum capacities, they are, in effect, using 9th level spell slots, and thus very rapidly burning through their reserve.
Also, the Crystal powers are resisted by DR, which is quite an issue at the higher levels. Anything which isn't DR/slashing resist part of this damage.
There's the line of Energy powers, where the Psion can pick his type at will, but then again: many creatures have ER as well while they have a limited number of powers known. Wizards don't have this limitation, since they can learn any spell they want.
Also, if you choose to play your Wizard as a pure blaster, you're probably better off playing something else: wizards do better in another role.
They have plenty save-or-die spells. There's Weird, Phantasmal Killer, Wail of the Banshee, amongst others.
Also: Shapechange: become a Noble Djin and grant yourself three Wishes.
There's Timestop.
As for the Overchannel feat-line: your "nothing else" = three feats. Either they take damage every round to do a pathetic 2d6 extra damage, or they use it every other round, with no damage, and expend their Focus, which precludes them from raising their DC's and their penetration capabilities. Also, it would entail them having Psionic Meditation, to speed up their refocussing. In the best case, it would be a completly immobile Psion who can do an extra 2d6 damage (two levels higher) every other round. Awesome.

Thrallherd: take a look at the Druid. Take a look at Complete Divine. Comfort the poor Thrallherd. (Specificly: Dire Tiger Animal Companion with Animal Growth, Nature's Avatar, Nature's Favour, Greater Magical Fang. Cast the Fangs at the start of the day, quicken the Favour, cast Avatar in same round, quicken via Metamagic Rod the Growth in the second round. Now your Dire Tiger does something like +50/+50/+50/+44 as attacks, eacht with 2d8 + 32 damage. It gets better when he charges. Also, give him Power Attack.)
Besides, the Thrallherd is very, very DM-dependant. If you deny him acces to certain creatures, he can't control them. Also: make key-enemies immune to mindaffecting effects. Pretty basic at non-low levels.

This is from another post, which exemplifies the true power of wizards:
Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer
While within a Time-Stop (Extended via a metamagic rod), a simple 5th level spell (Wall of Stone) domed around the wizard can invalidate the need to worry about Antimagic Fields, casting while silenced or grappled, Energy Balls, Energy Bolts, Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, Crystal Shards, Ectoplasmic Cocoons, and a huge number of other spells, powers, tactics, and effects. Building a WoS inside of a Prismatic Sphere protects the WoS from taking any kind of damage until the Sphere is taken care of (and unless your psion has a Rod of Cancellation handy, he ain't taking it down). The Ring Gates I mentioned earlier could just as easily be held by some summonables, rather than glued to the foreheads of some really nasty CR 27 dragons (which I also did via Time-Stop). And guess what? Many of my summoned creatures have some very high-level casting abilities - and you'd better believe that an army of them is coming for you.

The only way to get in is to Metamorphosis into a creature that can burrow (which is why I'd plan on casting Wall of Iron to push over and stand on), or to teleport in (which is why I'd cast Dimensional Anchor on the walls).

I could have my familiar running around in an Antimagic Field effect. All it would have to do would be to run within 10 feet of you. Then the aforesaid dragons would likely eat you alive. If that didn't work, I'd make a Knowledge: Psionics check, likely figuring out that it was your psicrown that was giving you invulnerability, and have my dragons use their entire attack routines to sunder it (and any other equipment you were carrying, just in case).

Assuming that you managed to kill my familiar, and survived the Summoned/Gated creatures, then found ways around my turtle-shell, AND somehow got to me, I used my free time in my temporal plastic bubble to cast Shapechange, which means that I'm now an incorporeal undead, so you'll likely not be able to hurt me. And if you get past the 50% miss-chance imposed by incorporeality, I also used a Limited Wish to get a Contingencied Dimension-Door to transport me 5' underground, if something actually can damage me; since I'm incorporeal, I can exist within solid matter, so that's specifically allowed. Good luck getting to me there.

Also, to counteract your Schism effect, I have about 5 10th-level Simulacrums running around, trying to hit you with Forcecages and such (and unlike yours, they have no duration, have a full complement of spells as 10th-level casters, and don't drain any of my current resources). They were in my Bag of Holding, which I dumped out as a move-action on one of my plastic-bubble rounds, or perhaps on a later round; it doesn't matter that much.

And, assuming that you somehow managed to survive, have taken down all of my defenses, and then *killed* me, remember that it wasn't actually *me.* You've been fighting my Astral Projection this whole time, which has instantaneously returned to my real body (which is in my Bag of Holding, inert and in stasis). What this means is that I can learn from my mistakes and try to kill you all over again. By that time, you're likely down to 1/2 your power points or less, assuming that I haven't killed you after my familiar's AMF, my MKDs or my dragons' sunders and MKDs (or AMFs) take out your Timeless Body. Stat damage/drain is horrible, especially to either a manifesting stat (Int) or one of your weaker stats (Con or Cha), not to mention innumerable save-or-dies that target your rather weak Fortitude save (and that's not even including the spells that make you suffer without a single save - such as Otto's Irresistable Dance or Maze).

And to keep you and that pesky psicrystal from galavanting about with teleportation spells, my dragons and I have hit you with a half dozen Dimensional Anchor spells - touch attack, no save. You ain't going anywhere.

And, assuming you killed me AGAIN somehow (as I Extended Time-Stopped before teleporting out of the bag, and put up my defenses again), note that I had at least one Clone in my Bag of Holding (which is now me, and I could have more - note that all it costs is, at most, 1500 gp, and that I can have as many of these as I like, up to my gp limit), and that it's about to be teleporting out to keep up the barrage of spells that I've been flinging at you.

And before you start yelling about how I'm chewing through my spell-slots like mad, note that I've perhaps only actually casted a few spells from slots. The rest have been through my chock-full Rods of Absorption, and perhaps a few scrolls (and I can have tons of these, if I wanted them). Thus, I've only used a fraction of my resources thus far.

We are, at most, 15 rounds or so in. You've hardly been able to touch me, very likely, and if you have, I'm still in the running.

Still want to duel using legitimate maneuvers? Every single one of those are RAW, RAI, allowable uses of arcane power.

...And I've barely scratched the surface.

If you resent Psionics so much because a starting player can get some better damage out of a Psion, then you're maybe a tad too focused on this issue. Someone who understands the game quickly adapts to a Wizard, Druid or Cleric. I'm not saying that Psionics are weak in any way. They're balanced.

[Pandaroon]

's got you there, psionics are quite to very balanced, unlike most core.

Now to go back to the topic: I always disliked the idea of Dragons, they're SO not in the D&D flavour. D&D is meant to be played without dragons, why are there so many dragonrelated things?!

And another thing. Always those stupid dungeons. God I hate dungeons. D&D was never meant to be played in dungeons. Fo'shame!

[Aegis]

I am just going to point out, for the sake of Devil's Advocate, to Gawain's argument, that the situation presented is the very ideal, and something that, even at best, would only occur with copious amounts of forward thinking, not to mention knowledge of what was going to happen. Not only that, but it definitely strikes me that if there was some might sketchy DMing going on if a wizard/sorceror was given every bit of that ludicrous combination of survival.

The point I am trying to get across is that the situation is rarely ideal, and something can always go wrong. For instance, what if the Psion wins initiative, and goes first with a crippling opening attack.

The simply truth is that any of the 'caster' type of characters are quite broken. My particular opinion is on the Psion being even more stupid (having seen a number of dirty, broken builds).