Best (and worst) Spells and Magic

[dragon wench]

When I play games, I almost always RP some form of spell caster, usually a mage/sorcerer (single or multi class), but also on occasion, druids or clerics.

That being the case, I've come to develop a real appreciation for some games in the way that they handle magic and spells.

To date [SIZE="1"](I have an old computer so I can't really comment on newer games)[/size], I have found that in terms of sheer originality and special effects, the best mage spells I have ever seen are in Planescape Torment.
The best druid spells, in my view, belong to the Icewind Dale games, because they are creative, cause some very real damage (at least as good as mage spells), and they have nice graphical effects.

Cleric spells? Truthfully, I can't really say because it is very rare that I play a cleric.. Possibly I'd suggest NWN for that spot, but I'm not entirely sure.

As for the not so good.. while I do like a lot of aspects of a (heavily modded) Morrowind, the magic system in that game just does not excite me. There is a sameness to all of the spells and it is rather difficult to play the game without resorting to either Marksman or Melee at least some of the time.

Opinions?

[fable]

The best use of magic I've seen was in Microprose's old Darklands (which is now abandonware). To recap: the game was set in the German states of the early Renaissance, as they would have been, if the things discussed in legends, folk and Christian, actually existed. So there really are witches, and an evil cult, and dragons, and kobolds. Clerics were people who had very high scores in virtue, and paid a small price at a local church where they could decide to learn a particular prayer. Each prayer was related to a specific saint, and cost a great deal of stored points (which came back after resting for several days). Prayers could affect an attribute, reveal what was hidden, heal others, or your own people, transport you, etc.

As for mages, they were represented by alchemists. Your alchemist paid inordinate sums to improve their equipment, learn or trade for new potions, increase the value of their alchemist's stone, and improve their own alchemy ability. Each potion of increasing quality required better ability, stone, equipment, to cast successfully. A successful potion could add an edge temporarily to your weapons, slow down opponents in battle, burn their armor, daze them, injure them, etc. Then you had someone with a good missile skill chuck the stuff at someone you disliked, or simply applied to something you wanted to improve--depending on what it was you had made.

The saints and the alchemy potion titles were real: the saints came from real life, and the potion names mentioned alchemists who were famous in the dawn of chemistry.

I've never seen an adaptation of these two magical classes that was more cleverly done, or rang more true to its environment. Instead of being superimposed by some silly rules.

[Fiberfar]

As for the not so good.. while I do like a lot of aspects of a (heavily modded) Morrowind, the magic system in that game just does not excite me. There is a sameness to all of the spells and it is rather difficult to play the game without resorting to either Marksman or Melee at least some of the time.

Opinions?

Agreed, Morrowind's magic system is boring. Some spells looks neat (Burden with health drain and electrical damage on target), but most of them are boring.

Gothic II's spell system is pretty plain, but there's some spells that looks awesome (Wave of Death).

[Gilliatt]

Although it's nothing revolutionary or original, I love the Might and Magic system based on the 4 elements (plus Light and Dark in the later games) for the sorcerer and on Spirit, Body and Mind for the cleric.

I also prefer a magic system based on magic points (like the M&M system) than based on which spells you learn before you sleep (like D&D). I always wondered how come a D&D sorcerer with 25 intellect could forget a spell he used hundreds of times if he forgot to learn it again the last time he slept.

[DesR85]

Of all the magic systems I've tried in the few RPGs I've played (Final Fantasy VII & VIII, the KOTOR series, Fable: The Lost Chapters and Gothic 3), I still prefer Final Fantasy VII's materia system (Summons and magic types). More simpler and much more logical compared to the magic system used in other RPGs. Not to mention that most of them are more useful than the other spells used in those other RPGs (especially the Enemy Skill materia, which allows you to learn enemy's magic spells).

I would rate Fable's as second. I find Battle Charge, Enflame, Berserk, Ghost Sword, Slow Time, Physical Shield, Multi-Arrow and Multi-Strike very useful. Others like Divine Fury and Infernal Wrath, I don't use at all. They're cool, yes, but I don't find them that useful, overall.

[GawainBS]

Although it's nothing revolutionary or original, I love the Might and Magic system based on the 4 elements (plus Light and Dark in the later games) for the sorcerer and on Spirit, Body and Mind for the cleric.

I also prefer a magic system based on magic points (like the M&M system) than based on which spells you learn before you sleep (like D&D). I always wondered how come a D&D sorcerer with 25 intellect could forget a spell he used hundreds of times if he forgot to learn it again the last time he slept.

I think D&D assumes that by "memorizing" a spell, you store magical energy and you release it by casting. It's not true "forgetting".
Also, I second Might & Magic. The Magic Realms are nicely distributed.
Arcanum has many useless spells, but also some very handy ones, and the manner how they interacti with Fatigue, Willpower & Intelligence is rather nifty.

[mr_sir]

Not sure if this counts as a magic system, but my favourite is the disciplines (well, they are kind of like magic lol) in the VtM games, particularly Bloodlines. The effects look good, they are useful and fun to use, and just generally fit really well with the clans that can use each one.

As for "real" magic - I'd say that I prefer the type of magic system where you have mana rather than memorised spells as it just makes more sense - casting spells is going to be draining so the mana reserves makes sense as they build up the more strong minded or intelligent your mage. As much as I like the D&D based games, I do find it a little hard to believe that after casting Magic Missile numerous times every day for about 3 months, my level 15 mage suddenly wakes up and can't remember how to cast it because he/she forgot to learn it before going to bed I thought mages were supposed to be intelligent :laugh:

Out of the games that use the mana system, my only issue is that often the mana does not regenerate ... which again makes little sense as to me it should regenerate slowly over time. To be honest though, I can't actually think of a game off the top of my head that utilises magic well and has regenerating mana

Edit: Just seen Gawain's post - yeah that makes sense about the D&D memorising spells system

[GawainBS]

Not sure if this counts as a magic system, but my favourite is the disciplines (well, they are kind of like magic lol) in the VtM games, particularly Bloodlines. The effects look good, they are useful and fun to use, and just generally fit really well with the clans that can use each one.

As for "real" magic - I'd also say that I prefer the types of games where you have mana rather than memorised spells as it just makes more sense - casting spells is going to be draining so the mana reserves makes sense as they build up the more strong minded or intelligent your mage. As much as I like the D&D based games, I do find it a little hard to beleive that after casting Magic Missile numerous times every day for about 3 months, my level 15 mage suddenly wakes up and can't remember how to cast it because he/she forgot to learn it before going to bed I thought mages were supposed to be intelligent :laugh:

Out of the games that use the mana system, my only issue is that often the mana does not regenerate ... which again makes little sense as to me it should regenerate slowly over time. To be honest though, I can't actually think of a game off the top of my head that utilises magic well and has regenerating mana

Edit: Just seen Gawain's post - yeah that makes sense about the D&D memorising spells system

a) Read above how magic works in D&D.

b) Arcanum offers regenaration. Also, some Morrowind mods do. Wizardry VIII does it as well. Might and Magic has some items that allow it. Diablo II regenerates mana as well.

[mr_sir]

a) Read above how magic works in D&D.

b) Arcanum offers regenaration. Also, some Morrowind mods do. Wizardry VIII does it as well. Might and Magic has some items that allow it. Diablo II regenerates mana as well.

My issue is not that games don't offer regeneration, its just that the ones that do, in my opinion, do not have a particularly brilliant magic system. I don't like the magic system in Arcanum in general, I think Morrowind's magic system is pretty pathetic to be honest ... I enjoy these games and I enjoy playing magic users in them, I just don't think they (overall) have particularly outstanding magic sytems/spells etc. But maybe I'm just fussy

I've never played Wizardry so I can't comment on those, and Might & Magic is on the list of games I'm slowly working through so I cannot as yet comment on that series either.

As for the D&D bit, you made that post while I was making mine so I didn't see your post about it

[GawainBS]

My issue is not that games don't offer regeneration, its just that the ones that do, in my opinion, do not have a particularly brilliant magic system. I don't like the magic system in Arcanum in general, I think Morrowind's magic system is pretty pathetic to be honest ... I enjoy these games and I enjoy playing magic users in them, I just don't think they (overall) have particularly outstanding magic sytems/spells etc. But maybe I'm just fussy

I've never played Wizardry so I can't comment on those, and Might & Magic is on the list of games I'm slowly working through so I cannot as yet comment on that series either.

As for the D&D bit, you made that post while I was making mine so I didn't see your post about it

Sorry, then I was too quick to remark it. But Morrowind magic system is a bit lackluster, yes. Tons of spells, but only 10-15 useful ones.
Wizardry is definitly a "must".
More of an Action RPG and already pretty old: Revenant. It doesn't offer Regeneration, or very slowly, but it has a nice system of combining Runes.
Now that I think of it: Arx Fatalis. I only played the demo, but still, the Magic System is cool. You have to draw the correct runes with your mouse. It's a bit like Black & White, although I think Arx was first.

[Deadalready]

I like Baldur's Gate when it comes to magic, spell interruption isn't implemented enough in games. There's nothing I hate more than seeing someone build up a powerful spell off butt kicking and being powerless to stop it. Sometimes even worse than not being able to interupt is not being able to block or counter it.

I do like Morrowind's spell making system, but as for rest of it, it's rather poorly implemented.

[DaveO]

Icewind Dale has the same spell interruption abiltity of Baldur's Gate. The only spell system I got into a lot was Ultima 3's. There's nothing like the power of those higher level spells to crush the enemies with!

[kmonster]

The worst handling of magic is in the D&D games. Having to select what you'll cast makes no sense and ensures that you'll never cast most spells since it lacks a lot of flexibility.
The spell system in MM6 and MM7 was the the best.
I also liked how spellcasting was implemented in Stonekeep.

[GawainBS]

Stonekeep? Never heard of that game. How was the magic there?

[Gilliatt]

I think D&D assumes that by "memorizing" a spell, you store magical energy and you release it by casting. It's not true "forgetting".

Well, it does make more sense than having an amnesiac mage. Thanks for pointing that out.

@mr_sir, I have not played Bloodlines yet, but played Redemption about half a year ago. I also enjoyed the disciplines, particularly the combination of feral claw and the haste spell (sorry, I don't remember the real name).

[kmonster]

Stonekeep? Never heard of that game. How was the magic there?

Stonekeep is an old 1st person action rpg.
During the game you found a few wands where you could engrave spell runes into. You cast by clicking on the engraved runes. The amount of mana a wand contained was limited, when it was empty you had to refresh it at certain locations.

[Faendalimas]

in D&D spellcasting is designed for a pen and paper game, all computer games that try to use the D&D ruleset have to face two issues. First is that D&D PnP is turn based and second that a turn is 60 seconds. Neither of these work in a real time computer game. Hence the turn is generally reduced to 6 seconds and the game is made into real time by giving all objects asynchronous turns. This greatly effects the spellcasting.

Next thing the "memorization" of spells as it is called in most computer games in the rules is actually called spell preparation and represents the conversion of spell knowledge into a one time castable feat. Only a limited number of these can be prepared each day a number based on the level of the caster and the relevant ability (eg int for wizards, wis for clerics etc). It is not about forgetting what you did but that once used the components of the spell are no longer viable as you have used them. So fresh components must be prepared and sorted for spellcasting the next day. Unfortunately in most computer game versions of D&D they dont mention that spells require components that must be prepared they just say you have to memorise them.

So personally from a roleplay perspective the D&D spell system is better because it has more in depth explanation and reason behind its production, rather than just saying you have mana to burn go for it, its more in tune with your characters development and is totally reliant on the setting up and gearing of the character into a caster of whatever type. Rather than just making a mage tank.

The objective is not to use all the spells, but to know and predict which ones to prepare for the upcoming encounters, again this all works better in pen and paper than in a computer game. Thats just an unfortunate factor in the design of D&D its a ruleset designed specifically for pen and paper gaming not computer games. The cross over is not always too good.

Cheers, Faen

[GawainBS]

I think that spell is called "Alacricity".