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What then is the "convenient truth"?

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lythium
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Post by lythium »

I wasn't sure about the hockey stick graph and found some interesting information on how it got through the peer-review system of the IPCC.

Found it on an extensive website on global warming, which was so big that I haven't read much of it, though there are some interesting graphs that take relatively little time to view.

The following text is rather big, but it may be a valuable insight into the IPCC scientific method of peer review and the birth of the hockey stick graph...
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/warm.htm]3. IPCC pseudoscience challenged (...) In support of its claim that the 1990s were the warmest decade and 1998 the warmest year for a millennium wrote:see fig. 3.1[/url]). The graph shows fairly constant temperatures for the last millennium followed by a dramatic rise in the 20th century (the blade of the hockey stick). The accepted view before that, as embodied in a graph in the IPCC’s 1990 report (fig. 3.2), was that the world had undergone a Medieval Warm Period that was warmer than today.

In the 1990 graph, the current warming falls within the range of natural historical variation* [note by lythium: the graph is 17 years old and it does appear temperature rises above the medieval period now], whereas the hockey stick graph makes it look anomalous and alarming. The existence of the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age, and further back the Dark Ages Cold Period and the Roman Warm Period, had been accepted in textbooks for decades. But such natural climate fluctuations are an embarrassment to the hypothesis that mankind is mainly to blame for the present warming. Indeed, one global warming zealot, in an unguarded moment, stated: ‘We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period’ (see Deming, 1995, p. 249). That is exactly what Mann’s team did.

Statistical experts Ross McKitrick and Steve McIntyre published a critique of the hockey stick in the peer-reviewed journal Energy and Environment in 2003 and further critiques in 2005 ([url]http://www.climateaudit.org;[/url] McKitrick, 2005). They criticized MBH98/99 for inappropriate data selection and incorrect use of statistical methods. They had great difficulty getting the necessary information from Michael Mann, who put many obstacles in their path. He refused to release his computer code, saying that ‘giving them the algorithm would be giving in to the intimidation tactics that these people are engaged in’ and that ‘if we allowed that sort of thing to stop us from progressing in science, that would be a very frightening world’!

The MBH temperature reconstruction was based mainly on bristlecone-pine datasets, even though the IPCC had recommended against reliance on bristlecone pines because 20th century CO2 fertilization accelerated annual growth, creating a false impression of exceptional recent warming. Moreover, their statistical model had given these datasets 390 times more prominence than the other datasets they had used. McKitrick and McIntyre found that MBH’s statistical methods nearly always produce a hockey stick shaped graph, even when random numbers are used. They also discovered that MBH had excluded from their calculations a dataset covering the later medieval warm period, which had been stored in a computer file marked ‘Censored-Data’. After correcting these various errors, they found that the 15th century contained an extensive warm period with a higher temperature than the late 20th century.

Prior to McIntyre and McKitrick’s work, no palaeoclimatologist had attempted to replicate MBH98/99. In fact, many climate scientists derided the very idea! The fact that the flawed MBH98 paper passed peer review for Nature magazine speaks volumes. So does the fact that Nature, along with other leading peer-reviewed scientific journals, refused to publish McIntyre and McKitrick’s 2003 article exposing the flawed graph. Only after prolonged pressure did the editors of Nature publish a correction by MBH, who falsely claimed that the flaws made no difference to their results.

The IPCC itself never made any attempt to verify the MBH98/99 findings. This may have something to do with the fact that the lead author of the chapter that gave prominence to the Mann study was none other than Michael Mann himself! Some senior climate scientists have severely criticized the system that allows such conflicts of interest. But it remains in place for the fourth IPCC assessment report, due out in February 2007. As reviewers of the next IPCC report, McIntyre and McKitrick (2006) write:

we have expressed concerns to the IPCC about prominent use of graphics and empirical results from the lead authors’ own freshly published papers, which have not been in print long enough to have undergone adequate, independent review and assessment ...

Independent review is also hindered by the unscientific practice of refusing to disclose datasets and calculations.

The US House of Representatives’ science committee asked the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) to evaluate the criticisms of Mann’s work and assess the larger issue of climate reconstructions. In its report (July 2006), it accepted virtually all the criticisms of the hockey stick, and said that Mann’s data and methodology did not permit him to claim with confidence that 1998 was the warmest year of the millennium or the 1990s the warmest decade. But it still stated that his reconstruction was ‘plausible’ as studies by several other scientists had also concluded that the 20th century was warmer than the Medieval Warm Period.

Another analysis of the hockey stick paper was carried out by a panel of three independent statisticians appointed by the US House of Representatives’ energy and commerce committee. Its report (July 2006) states that the criticisms made by McKitrick and McIntyre are ‘valid and compelling’. Referring to the small band of scientists who dominate the field of climatology, the panel’s leader, Edward Wegman, says:

[T]here is a tightly knit group of individuals who passionately believe in their thesis. However, our perception is that this group has a self-reinforcing feedback mechanism and, moreover, the work has been sufficiently politicized that they can hardly reassess their own public positions without losing credibility. (Wall Street Journal, 2006)

‘In other words,’ says the Wall Street Journal, ‘climate research often more closely resembles a mutual-admiration society than a competitive and open-minded search for scientific knowledge.’

Regarding the claim that many other studies support Mann’s conclusions, the panel points out that the scientists concerned often work with Mann, and tend to use the same datasets. McIntyre and McKitrick (2006) comment:

We’ve attempted to replicate these other studies as well, only to run into one obstacle after another in identifying data and methods – similar to the problems that led to the original congressional questions about the Mann study. In one case, the authors even refused to identify the sites from which data was collected for their study!
Despite these pointless obstacles, we know enough about the ‘other studies’ to be confident that none of them meets the methodological standards now recommended by the panel. In fact, somewhat remarkably, two of the most recent studies even continue to use Mann’s discredited principal components series [bristlecone pines].

The hockey stick graph was featured six times in the IPCC’s 2001 report, and has been a key weapon in the campaign to convince the public and politicians of the dangers of human-caused warming. Although the graph has been convincingly discredited, the IPCC has not issued an apology or correction and continues to use it in its publications. The Canadian government circulated a copy of the graph to every household in the country, but it too has not circulated any correction.
Oh and I found this funny certainly if it's true:
Gore claims that global warming endangers polar bears even though polar bear populations are increasing in Arctic areas where it is warming and declining in Arctic areas where it is cooling. He states that polar bears ‘have been drowning in significant numbers’ – based on a report that four drowned polar bears were found in one month in one year, following an abrupt storm!
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Post by fable »

I suppose this debate on ABC points out that the swindle documentary is definitely not a scientific document and graphs and quotes were misused in order to make a point.

Then again, didn't the Gore documentary do a similar thing, presenting the audience with only suggestive material (namely the hockeystick graph but also the conclusion based on a set of overlaying graphs showing co2 and global temperature, that co2 causes warming when cause and effect are more subtly connected)?

That's apperently how these tv documentaries work.
Discrediting "The Great Global Warming Swindle" only does one thing: it discredits "The Great Global Warming Swindle." It doesn't act as a brush to tar all other documentaries, or even documentaries on the subject of the environment. But if you'd like to start another thread for the membership to examine Gore's documentary and its claims, feel free to do so. :)
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Post by rmemmett84 »

[quote="Xandax"]"We" are not the USA, and single minded propaganda does not work here.

OK this is where I have to take offense. Whether you agree with lythium or not there is no reason to bring country of origin into a global argument. I'll admit I quit reading shortly after your post because I find the discussion tired so I don't know if this nasty little bit of bigotry was addressed or not. I don't assume to know anything about the people of Europe so I would appreciate you not making assumptions about me. The real inconvenient truth is that Mr. Gore's message would carry alot more creedence if he followed his own advice.
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Post by Xandax »

Yes. I'm sorry that it came off more harshly then intended if you choose to read it in that manner, however it is two seperate sentences so it was not to indicate that single minded propaganda works in the USA, but that "we" (meaning this community at the least) are not the USA and single minded propaganda doesn't work here.
The focus on Al Gore's statements/documentary was what prompted the "not USA" (as if Al Gore somehow invented the global warming and CO2 issue, and it hasn't been debated for many years), and single minded propaganda, because that is what the documentary is and how it was presented in the OP.
So while you can choose to read the two as a combined statement - they are not intended as such.
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Post by Lady Dragonfly »

VonDondu
One of the other problems that I've seen with this documentary so far (it's a problem for me, anyway) is that the issue of political leadership is not clearly defined. On the one hand, the focus of the film seems to be on U.K. politicians and scientists, who on the whole are accused of being "politically correct". But at the risk of sounding provincial, the United States political establishment seems to have a lot more effect on international policies than the U.K., just because the U.S. has more influence around the world. And when you talk about the U.S., you really have to acknowledge the way that the Bush administration has treated the issue of global warming. They have in fact suppressed evidence not just that global warming is caused by humans, but also that global warming is happening in the first place. And to suggest that the Bush administration's "skepticism" is founded on the noble intention to prevent harm to Africans is totally absurd. Therefore, to accuse the "opposition" of "dictating to Africa" seems completely off the mark to me. "You liberals are supposed to care about Africans, so why are you hurting them?" That's exactly the sort of argument I hear on conservative talk radio. "If you opposed the invasion of Iraq, then you support Saddam Hussein and mass murder and genocide." It's the same sort of argument to me.

I might watch more of the documentary so I can see exactly what sort of claims the documentary makes about the people who are "dictating to Africa"…
I suggest you do it, so you can see for yourself “exactly what sort of claims the documentary makes about…” before you make your comments about these perceived “claims” and bring Bush, Iraq, and conservative shows into this debate.
I'd really like to get to the bottom of this. Tell me who is dictating to the Third World, exactly how they are doing it, what sort of authority and enforcement mechanisms they have, and in the absence of any sort of meaningful, dictatorial power, why what a bunch of powerless people merely want to dictate to people over whom they have no actual power matters in the first place.
I am sure you realize you are asking a rhetorical question. I am also sure you can tell us a lot yourself about how the Western World generally influences the Third World when it comes to the economical development and natural resources (According to the World Bank, the world economy relies on USA, European Union and Japan representing together almost 74% of GNI).

Speaking about hydrocarbon fuel, USA and China (which became the world’s second largest oil consumer, behind only the United States, and which invested billions in African infrastructures for energy sources development) are both greatly interested in African natural resources. An estimated 25 percent of China’s total oil imports currently comes from Africa. The US oil imports from Africa are 15 % and will most probably grow in the nearest future. All this, together with selling weapons to the dictators and rebels can pretty darn well influence a lot of things.

I don’t know how “mandatory emission limitation for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions” is really going to be enforced (the US and Australia did not sign the Kyoto Protocol) and how exactly it is going to affect Africa’s questionable economical development.
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Post by rmemmett84 »

[quote="Xandax"]Yes. I'm sorry that it came off more harshly then intended if you choose to read it in that manner, however it is two seperate sentences so it was not to indicate that single minded propaganda works in the USA, but that "we" (meaning this community at the least) are not the USA and single minded propaganda doesn't work here.

I suppose after your explanation I understand what you say you meant but "two separate sentences" are usually separated by a period not a comma. The original "we" in question referred to the concerts held several days ago. While admittedly I didn't watch any of the concerts I do believe they were held in several countries making them an international event not a USA event. Therefore "we" I believe was intended to mean the global community or at the very least those countries which participated, of which the USA was one.
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Post by Curdis »

Curdis wrote:That global warming has captured the public/media eye is one thing, as far as I can tell there is lots of evidence which suggests that the earths current mean annual temperature is increasing. There is also some compelling evidence to suggest that CO2 is being deposited out of the atmosphere (in some areas)at rates well in excess of anything previously encountered. To add all this up and state that human CO2 production is causing a global temperature increase is probably misguided.

Many people have been stating this effect as fact for several decades and the historical record will show that the evidence which has been cited has unfortunately been shown to be erroneous on more than one occassion. e.g. Early studies proving the mean increase failed to take into account the change in landscape which accompanied city development at long term weather stations, this effect was what was driving the temperature increases.

This has now made the issue one which is an easy target for those people who have a vested interest in continued rampant energy consumption (read you and me). Because it is a media focus the whole issue of the ecology can be sidelined into this one place and whether we do anything to halt wholesale forrest clearance, coral reef bleaching, or any one of the many other environmental tragedies can all be decided on the evidence when it becomes scientifically irrefutable.

So in short. Whether it is happening or not should not be overshadowing, or forestalling the immediate and obvious problems which we as a society need to be addressing today.

1/Global Warming (Human CO2 input model)- as the evidence stands today - Fiction
2/Global environmental damage - as the evidence stands today - Fact

I think number one is serving as a distraction to the second. - Curdis !
I have neither seem the Gore film nor the Durkin one. Now before you howl me down as being willfully ignorant I have been closely following this issue since the Seventies. I have actually read the papers (that these documentaries are supposedly based on) and had the priviledge of being able to talk closely with scientists involved in the Australian Antarctic Division, the Bureau of Meteorology and the Australian Greenhouse Office.

Now my direct contact did end over five years ago, but at that time I will confirm that everybody involved in the Australian Antarctic Division thought greenhouse gas climate change was 100% fact. This isn't surprising as they are the people who are doing the ice core analysis and the evidence that atmospheric CO2 concentration is at an all time high is uncontestable. It is all ridiculously obvious except for the link to global warming. Here is a group of people who based on the evidence believe in something that doesn't necessarily follow from the available evidence.

The Bureau of Meteorology is much more circumspect. They aren't entirely convinced that there is any evidence of global warming at all. Based on the availble climate data a bookmaker would give better odds on the global mean temperature being cooler in 400 years than it is now. The Bureau of Meteorology however find they have their hands full sucessfully predicting the climate with any certainty over the next 24 hours.

The Australian Greenhouse Office would seem (based on their name)to be a hot bed of climate change believers, and so it is. The most common qualification is however in Economics. When quizzed on what evidence there is of a connection between CO2 and climate change the best evidence they had was from the International Actuarial Association. This august body has recently increased the premium forcasts for the cost of extreme weather events. Prudent as this may be strong scientific evidence it is not.

The documentaries are about persausion not science.
dragon wench wrote:<SNIP> given that the evidence points overwhelmingly to the reality of Climate Change.

Incidentally..
To date, Martin Durkin, the "documentary's" director has also made:
Against Nature - which asserts that environmentalists threaten the economy and personal liberties.
Storm in a D-Cup- which claims silicone breast implants are beneficial to womens' health and actually help to prevent breast cancer.
Modified Truth - which argues in favour of genetic modification

and of course, this most recent film

Hmmm.. anyone else smell an agenda here?<SNIP>
Please point out where I can find this overwhelming evidence (Now I'm presuming you mean human CO2 induced climate change).

Your comments about Martin Durkin may be well founded but his agenda or previous presentations do not necessarily mean that what he is now saying is wrong. Not that I would know (having not seen either films) it is just not a valid arguement.
Xandax wrote:<SNIP>Global warming is not a new phenomenon, and along side other inconvenient truths such as holes in the ozone layer and a decreasing amount of fossile fuels have been discussed and attempted countered for many years in many countries.

I don't know if you are old enough to remember the entire ozone layer debate which bears tremendously resembles to the current Global Warming in the USA. However there as well for a number of years, did the industry try to discredit all research into the cause and effect of the ozone layers holes, until conclusive evidence were found between the amount of CFCs gasses and the lack of O3.<SNIP>

And CO2 is at the highest percentage in several hundred thousand years as being charted by ice drilling on Greenland and the North pole (but I guess they are just Al Gore's manipulation). That alone should be a nice indicator of something amiss. And the only major thing happened over those years are human civilization.
<SNIP>
Arguement by analogy is always dangerous. The reason the ozone layer depletion was addressed was because the evidence and science was essentially incontravertible. Given the size of the political systems involved some delay in the face of real factual evidence was inevitable. There is no analogue in this case in this vital particular. Put this, still missing, piece into the jigsaw and there will be action, eventually. Basing policy on belief is returning to the dark ages.
mr_sir wrote:As someone who has studied the evidence of climate change at degree level, I have to say that if you study records from the last 100 years or so together with geological evidence dating back as far as the times of the dinosaurs, there is a long history of climate change on this planet and all the evidence strongly suggests that the planet is currently heating up.

There are many theories regarding why, the most popular being that man-made "Greenhouse Gases" are causing global warming. Another is that the planet goes through cycles, the increase in Carbon Dioxide etc. is a natural process and that eventually we will reach a peak and then the temperature will fall again as we head towards another ice age, and then it will rise again ... and so on.

One thing I would like to point out though is that you cannot say that something is an "absolute truth" or a "real truth" as it is all theory. However some theories have a lot more evidence supporting them, and there is overwhelming evidence supporting Global Warming. The planet is heating up, the question is are we speeding up this process?<SNIP>
The correct use of language is very important - "overwhelming evidence supporting Global Warming". On what basis do you make this confident statement? That there is "evidence of a reasonably sustained period of moderate temperature increase over the last hundred years, and this may yet prove to be a fluctuation that is well inside historical levels of climate noise" doesn't sound nearly as dramatic and is all that I would be prepared to venture on the basis of the evidence.

The question you then pose is indeed a key question. Perhaps more key is (if we are) how are we doing it? To take effective action you need to know what you are doing. What if we cut greenhouse gas emmissions by 80% and then found out the climate effect was soley a result of forrest clearing?
Kipi wrote:Actually, you don't even need to go that far back in history tofind evidences. At leas here, if I just look the temperature, rain and snow records of last ten years or so, I can clearly see the heating in those records. For example, last couple of years have been the dryest in long time. Coincident? Possible, if it was only that. But, as those couple of years have also been the hottest during summer, and least cold during winter times, it's rather obvious that the climate is warmer that before. And that's a fact no one can deny.<SNIP>
Compelling as you find the evidence of the last ten years, global climate has changed by much larger amounts over similar time periods well before the last ten years. Your undeniable fact may be both a fact and undeniable it just doesn't necessarily support man made CO2 forced climate change. - Curdis !
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Post by Naffnuff »

@ Curdis

Extremely good points in my opinion.

@ Everyone addressed

Why not try to give a careful and conscientious answer? If you are convinced, you ought to be able to explain the grounds for you conviction.
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Post by BlueSky »

Good article on this subject in the August 13, 2007 issue of Newsweek....
points out that ExxonMobil foots the bills on lots of these so-called think tanks.
ExxonMobil has offered scientists $10,000 to write articles to undermine news reports. And point out that most green house doubters are using the same tactics that the tobacco industry uses...
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Post by lythium »

That means at last scientists get motivated (read: paid) to provide some counterbalance to the claims made by "green" scientists.

Although I'd be happier if the company, who happens to have a huge interest in us using fossil fuels, would fund a more thorough research into the real effects of CO2 emissions and cutting those emissions down than, as you say, "undermine news reports", because I think accurate sciencific publications are more important than steering the public opinion (read: the bandwagon).

I think Exxonmobil is concerned and scared about public opinion, as it affects their sales negatively, which is probably why they launch this transparent campaign against news reports. Their use of this low tactic is then used by the greens to demonstrate that doubt is only in the interest of oil and should be totally ignored...

Equally unscientific tactics, as far as I can see...

By the way, are you a timetraveler or is Newsweek publishing a week ahead?
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Post by BlueSky »

lythium wrote: By the way, are you a timetraveler or is Newsweek publishing a week ahead?
Newsweek ships a week ahead of cover date.... :)

Give it a read, they try to not be biased in the coverage....and point out the not-quite scientific studies...both sides are using.
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Post by Vicsun »

I don't have the time for a full-length reply, but while doing a vanity-namesearch, Naffnuff's post caught my eye, and I can't help myself.
Naffnuff wrote: Sorry Vicsun, this does not count. We all know what the IPCC thinks, but if we are only going to direct each other to external sources, what then is the point of this thread?
You know, I was wondering the same thing ;) My stance on the issue is that whatever the scientific consensus is, is what I'll consider to be true. What about critically evaluating scientific arguments on my own, you say? I've tried plowing through a paper or two, and unsurprisingly I found myself completely unqualified to judge their validity. Just like debating the legitimacy of the Standard Model of particle physics versus M-Theory would be a completely fruitless endeavor on SYM, I think that debating the issue of climate change here is futile. Hence my previous irritability. :)
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Post by Naffnuff »

Vicsun wrote:I don't have the time for a full-length reply, but while doing a vanity-namesearch, Naffnuff's post caught my eye, and I can't help myself.


You know, I was wondering the same thing ;) My stance on the issue is that whatever the scientific consensus is, is what I'll consider to be true. What about critically evaluating scientific arguments on my own, you say? I've tried plowing through a paper or two, and unsurprisingly I found myself completely unqualified to judge their validity. Just like debating the legitimacy of the Standard Model of particle physics versus M-Theory would be a completely fruitless endeavor on SYM, I think that debating the issue of climate change here is futile. Hence my previous irritability. :)
Cool. I can dig that. I guess we are all here on the forums for fun and relaxation. If a discussion is not just that, it is probably a good idea to let it go. :)
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Post by lythium »

Then this debate has no real conclusion, which is a desirable conclusion to me. I consider this thread ended after, say, 24 hours of this post, in case anyone wants to add a last minute note...

Thank you all for reading and contributing.
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Post by fable »

lythium wrote:Then this debate has no real conclusion, which is a desirable conclusion to me. I consider this thread ended after, say, 24 hours of this post, in case anyone wants to add a last minute note...

Thank you all for reading and contributing.
Sorry, but this thread doesn't end on anybody's say so. It's open-ended, in the best sense of the word. If someone wants to continue it in 48 hours, or 4 weeks, or 4 months, and feels that they have something to contribute--they may certainly do so. And we would welcome it. Just as we have done in the past, with threads that get a whole new lease on life. :)
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Post by fable »

Newsweek has just issued an edition in which its cover story was "The Truth About Denial." It deals with both the issues raised in "Convenient Truth," and the motives of those who lead the global warming denial movement. You can read it here. Interesting piece.
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Post by Lady Dragonfly »

Just a few words.

This article is just politically motivated propaganda with only one emotionally charged argument: oil industry pays money to the "denial machine". This article is not about science. It is about evil "deniers" on the oily payroll who tirelessly "undermine the science" by creating an illusion of disagreement:

"There was an extraordinary campaign by the denial machine to find and hire scientists to sow dissent and make it appear that the research community was deeply divided," says Dan Becker of the Sierra Club."

Oh dear...

The methods of persuasion employed by the honest "good guys" are hilariously described in this passage:

"It was 98 degrees in Washington on Thursday, June 23, 1988, and climate change was bursting into public consciousness. The Amazon was burning, wildfires raged in the United States, crops in the Midwest were scorched and it was shaping up to be the hottest year on record worldwide. A Senate committee, including Gore, had invited NASA climatologist James Hansen to testify about the greenhouse effect, and the members were not above a little stagecraft. The night before, staffers had opened windows in the hearing room. When Hansen began his testimony, the air conditioning was struggling, and sweat dotted his brow. It was the perfect image for the revelation to come. He was 99 percent sure, Hansen told the panel, that "the greenhouse effect has been detected, and it is changing our climate now."

But wait, there is the light at the of the tunnel:

"Still, like a great beast that has been wounded, the denial machine is not what it once was."

:rolleyes:
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Post by fable »

This article is just politically motivated propaganda...

What is the political motivation, in your opinion?
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Post by Lady Dragonfly »

fable wrote:This article is just politically motivated propaganda...

What is the political motivation, in your opinion?

"...for the most part climate change has been a bitterly partisan issue."

There is no doubt what side of the aisle Ms. Begley favors. :)
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Post by fable »

Lady Dragonfly wrote:"...for the most part climate change has been a bitterly partisan issue."

There is no doubt what side of the aisle Ms. Begley favors. :)
Yet taken in full, her sentence is: "The GOP control of Congress for six of Clinton's eight years in office meant the denial machine had a receptive audience. Although Republicans such as Sens. John McCain, Jim Jeffords and Lincoln Chafee spurned the denial camp, and Democrats such as Congressman John Dingell adamantly oppose greenhouse curbs that might hurt the auto and other industries, for the most part climate change has been a bitterly partisan issue."

Which seems if anything to me an attempt to be fair, using (presumably) legislative rolecalls to check votes, rather than an attempt to side with Democrats. That's not to say she isn't very partisan on this issue. I just don't see what you see as political partisanship.

If it is political partisanship, and she uses very dramatic language, does that have any effect on the validity or lack o same in the piece?
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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