ninjitsu vs weapons

[Claudius]

This thread is to discuss the advantages and disadvantages....

I also have a specific question that inspired me to start the thread...

Question: I know that having ranks in weapon skills only helps you qualify to use the weapon without penalty. For example if you have 12 ranks in heavy weapons and you are using a sword that needs 10 you still do the same damage as if you had 24 ranks in heavy weapons.

Therefore at a certain point you cannot deal more damage with a weapon aside from raising strength.

But what about ninjitsu... If you farmed the vale of ruin or minotaurs for a couple of months would it be possible to raise your ninjitsu to 20-30?

Would you do much more damage than 12 ninjitsu (thats the highest I've ever had)?

That would be kinda coool

Edit: Imagine a shaolei master or ninja lord with 30 ninjitsu 150 str 20 critical strike haha

[War-Wiz]

opinion

Hi Claudius,

Just a couple of things to keep in mind if you're going to try to "max" a character. First, you're right about weapons skill as you only have to raise it far enough to pass a class quest, get all the moves or to use a weapon. You'll never have to put more than 12 into heavy/medium weapons unless you're an Urgoth or Dwarf and want to use a demon blade. Then you'll need 14 in heavy weapons. Light weapons are different as you'll have to raise that to increase your skill in magic weaponry. I have taken it as high as 30 with no problems.

You should never raise your ninjitsu above 20. If you raise the ninjitsu skill above that you won't be able to hit a thing, at least I can't. Maybe it's like the strike bug I can have but Scottg has never seen, I dunno.
As your strength increases you will do more damage with ninjitsu, not as much as with weapons but never the less it will become more and more effective. The damage attribute is the one to watch in that case. If, in the early stages of the game you're hitting for 20 h.p. on average, later on if your damage is 200 then you'll be hitting for 40 h.p. Ninjitsu skill can raise this as well as make your hits near or at maximum damage more often. A ninjitsu warrior that has a high skill level and great strength is one tough customer in my opinion

Da Wiz :mischief:

[Claudius]

so there is a bonus to take magic weaponry to 30? The highest magic weapon I saw was 10. I thought it was another thing where you just needed to meet the requirement to activate the power.

[War-Wiz]

I thought so too until I cranked the skill and my Urgoth character was hitting for 200+ h.p. with the Demonblade of Charrus, a magic weapon (fire). He was strong enough that he could hit for 70 or 80 h.p. with a normal heavy weapon though, like the Blade of Death.

Da Wiz :mischief:

[Scottg]

Yup, magic weapon damage is the number 1 method for stacking melee'esq damage. Note though that you cannot achieve more than 3 learning bonuses in Magic Weaponry. Drainlife in conjunction with a very high magic weapon skill level is VERY nice (..look to the Warlock). (..a Paladin complements this well.) If you accept a slightly lower magic weaponry skill level (say 22 vs. 27) then you can go the dual weapon route via Samurai or Marauder.

[Vhan Tiegros]

So wait... The drain life skill actually gives me back HP for when i hit stuff with a magical staff? What i presume to be the burn damage... Or something...

[Scottg]

So wait... The drain life skill actually gives me back HP for when i hit stuff with a magical staff? What i presume to be the burn damage... Or something...

http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlords ... skills.php

yes, provided your magic weapon skill is meets the requirements for the weapon.. I remember reading that it doesn't work for an "off-hand" weapon in a dual-weapon character (..don't know if thats true).

Like most of the other diabolic skills though.. it really doesn't do a lot until higher levels.

[Compertz]

Running with a ninjitsu character at the moment

Ninjitsu has always struck me as very powerful compared to various forms of weapon attack, however when a weapon is magically enchanted by the character's magic powers then ninjitsu goes to second place for me.

One of the things I've noticed is that it seems to be easier to bypass a critter's defence (I'm not a USA person hence cpelling). Maybe its just the visual feedback (their burning bodies sort of thing) but with an enchanted weapons from Divine Strike you KNOW when you are hitting the 'dickens' out of them - English term.

I'm curious actually to know what people think about this: is a magic weapon more powerful than a non-magic weapon enchanted by Divine Strike - I'd be betting on DS as being more effective; but how can you compare them? As I see it DS adds another level of attack and combined with a weapon's normal weapon damage ... well it just clears the field quicker. Also some weapons are magical AND can be enchanted ... weapon of death momma (don't mind me, I'm just practicing my black-speak for when I visit the USA).

For example, I've currently (just checked) got this pole with a pink knob on the end and when I whack people with it they light up! On top of that it can be enchanted with Divine Strike; which also makes the pole longer (at least it looks longer). So when I use it on people they light up a lot more!!!

Now the character I've got is a Shaolei Master so I've got Ninjitsu sorted. However I find that I still pull out my enchanted pole to whack any really difficult critters - and I've got dual wield so I can add some nasty additional wallop while I'm lighting up my short-lived victims.


The point is, in my opinion, it is hard to resist the power of a magically enchanted weapon compared to a non-magic weapon. So ninjitsu is great in comparison with non-magic weapons (and possibly magic weapons, too) but add in Divine Strike (or probably that Rune magic spell that does a similar thing) and ... well it cuts a swathe thru the mobs.

IMO enchanted magic weapons (cast by your character) rule ... and make critters glow in the dark. In fact even though I designed my character for Ninjitsu, my enchanted weapon is really just too seductive ... so I use it a lot - like I did tonight in fact.

I think you have to really love the Ninjitsu fighting style to make it your predominant attack mode - and it is great when you bop someone on the nose once and they drop like a rock.


Okay I just loaded up my character again and tried a variety of fighting methods and the weapons I used all had a damage range of 4 - 9 (however a couple also had enchantments). Its hard to say what's best in terms of damage but I 'felt' I made more headway against critters using the DS enchanted weapons - also I seemed to get a few more critical strikes and make the odd extra-high damage blow. My Ninjitsu performed very well too, but I wondered if overall I was getting as many criticals or as many high-damage blows. While this mini-test is too short to be relevant it does reflect the bias I have formed about this over time.



Check the attached pics to see the difference in pole length - I have noticed though that when I'm looking down at the pole it seems even longer. However I'm pretty sure that having a longer pole (due to enchantment) doesn't actually make the pole longer - but maybe it will impress the girls! Still with my blue glowing shield, the red dagger, the pink knob pole, the straw hat and the rather swish dressing gown my character's appeal will probably be broader - not really where I want to go though.


If anyone is wondering how come my character looks like Ahn-Po's brother, read the 'fun with screenshots' thread - its War-Wiz's fault.


(Sorry if I've stepped on anyone's personal sensitivities - as Larry of Arabia said in the movie, "It's my manner."

Yo Moma - so is Moma spelled: mumma, momma, mamo, moma or something else?)


Cheers


[...]

[Claudius]

Hi compertz. I will have to try divine strike. If you want to discuss drugs I would be happy to. There is a thread in speak your mind forum that we could talk in (to avoid making a duplicate thread - I don't think the site owner likes duplicate threads because they slow the site down??)

[...]

[Scottg]

I've played with ninjitsu and dual weapons extensively.. even with good (but NON-magical) weapons, dual weapon attacks are overall superior. (..though note this is with regard to practical limits on skill levels for either category.)

There is one other thing of note in this discussion that has been left out:

Weapon based magical attacks are not strictly offensive in nature. In particular Ice based attacks also are *very* defensive, but while less effective defensively - other attacks also have an element of defensive capability. Nether strike is well suited to disrupting an opponents attack, and to a lesser degree so is a "fire" based attack. I suppose that ninjitsu attempts to compensate by offering the possibility of a faster attack with more attacks per round, but in practice it is not nearly as capable (..there is a notable attack "pause" between attack "rounds"). Nor is even a classic heavy weapon "knockdown" (which ninjitsu also has) - in that it becomes more difficult to attack that opponent once they have been knock'ed down.

Ninjitsu makes the attempt - but ultimately fails (..at being the "best"). (..this of course is in reference to a normal game with normal skill levels - though even at absurd levels I'd argue that it still fails as being the "best".)

Additionally, note that Divine Strike has limitations: specifically opponent limitations as follows: "Enchants the caster’s attacks, increasing his damage against undead, demons, and creatures of shadow."

Of course that represents more than a good bit of the opponents in the game, and yet there are several areas where it does not offer much - like the "maze".

The rune spells Rune Blades & Boon Blades however does not have such a limitation. Neither does Blade of Baal, and also note that Blade of Baal has a similar (yet less effective) magical defensive effect similar to Nether strike.

[jj22]

how do you make a "ninjitsu" charicter

[Compertz]

Hail Claudius.

I must say when directing a remark your way Claudius (and with Exalted Member below your name!) I can't help but see a picture of a great Roman senator - it's an impressive name for a forum; heck the Romans even hung out in forums!

My name is an inaccurately remembered name from a 60s sci-fi book - but I liked how it ties in with computers and hertz, but it definitely ain't regal. Been thinking I might change it to Octavian or Dodecaheptavius, but in the meantime ...

[...]

Now back to the valiant fight in DL.

Scottg, you are an education, you have nailed things down with incredible precision ... and I think there is hardly a game that has been more elusive to pin down. Your point about ice attacks for example being defensive is a sharp insight into understanding the principle behind the method - sign of a good tactician/strategist. I always like playing a game where awareness of principles underpinning a game is where the power of your victories lie. Chess is the king in that respect, but it lacks a certain cinematic flair.


Frankly I didn't appreciate the limitations of Divine Strike but my preference for DS-ing an already magical weapon probably (accidentally) made DS so effective as I perceived it - my attacks would do extra damage one way or nother. However knowing which critters to DS against becomes a lot more relevant - it also means I can probably invest in a smaller number of them, so expenziv.

I still 'feel' though that magic weapons somehow bypass defence more easily but I have no evidence that would stand up in court.


Cheers

[swcarter]

Just a note: this is NOT the place to talk about drugs. If you want to do that, please go to the Speak Your Mind forum.

SWC

[Scottg]

I still 'feel' though that magic weapons somehow bypass defence more easily but I have no evidence that would stand up in court.


Cheers

Well think back to armor.. Though I'm not certain, I seriously think that armor has an element of damage reduction. If you can have that why can't your opponents? If thats the case then its likely that purely physical damage is reduced by more than "chance" vs. your strength modifier and the weapon's native damage. So while that physical damage may not "stack up" quite as effectivly as you would hope - the magic damage may well seem that much more potent.

Of course its also likely that your opponents are *less* susceptible to certain types of magic damage, and in some cases *more* suceptible to one particular type of damage. For instance Drakes seem less effected by fire attacks, and more effected by ice attacks.

So yup, I think your feeling is "spot-on".