Saving Throws

[Solusek]

Hey folks,

I've got a rather simpel question. If it says "must make a saving throw against xxxxx(-4 penalty) in a spell or item description, does that mean the affected target has a -4penalty to it's respective saving throw, meaning it's more difficult for it to succeed or does the penalty apply to the difficulty level of the spell/effect making it easier for the target to succeed the saving throw?

Note: I'm talking about the example of Azuredge in particular, the axe that utterly destroys undead on hit unless they make a saving throw vs. death(-4 penalty). How do I even know what the DC they have to beat to succeed their saving throw is? It's all a bit complicated in the old AD&D rules, with all the negativ values, and lower better than higher stuff.


Thx in advance!


So long,
Sol

[Xandax]

Basically you subtract 4 from their save throw making it more difficult to resists the effect.

[Solusek]

But you do know that lower saving throws are better in the AD&D 2nd Edition rules?

[Crenshinibon]

Think of it as -4 to the final roll.

[Thrifalas]

Usually it says "penalty" or "bonus" after it, but yeah, it's always hard to know for sure. Mostly spells and weapons have penalties to make them harder to resist, except very lowlevel spells, like level 1-2.

[Xandax]

But you do know that lower saving throws are better in the AD&D 2nd Edition rules?

If it helps with the abstraction, then if you have a save throw of -4 (low is good yes), and endure a -4 penalty you'll in effect have a save throw of 0 in that instance, making it more difficult to resists.

[galraen]

I don't know about anyone else Xandax, but I found that confusing.

To simplify:

You hit a vampire, which has a save vs death of 10, the vampire then rolls a D20. It normally needs to roll 10 or higher to save vs death, because of the -4 penalty, it now requires a 14 or higher. Low save requirements = good, low dice roll = bad.

Be aware that the game cheats though. I once created a spell with Global effect, meaning it affected every character/creature on the map. When I cast it in Trademeet (with show dice rolls on) every being in the town had to make a saving throw, all of which were printed on the screen. I creature 'rolled' a 14, every other creature and character rolled 17 or higher! Next time I fired the spell, no one rolled below 17, same the third time, most rolls were 19 or 20. As Auric Goldfinger said in Fleming's book, 'Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times it's enemy action'.

[Solusek]

Nice explanation galraen, thx