University of Florida, Tasered Student (No Spam please).

[Siberys]

YouTube - University Of Florida Student Tasered At John Kerry Speech

Ok, yeah, the guy was kind of annoying. He was a little outspoken and a little bit of a time hog, BUT how the hell did the police get away with this kind of crap? Not only was he asking legitimate questions (Even if in a forceful way), but Kerry himself said "Look, if you just let him go I'll answer his questions." What's worse is that the student was referencing a book that both he and Kerry had read and were willing to have public discourse over.

Now, there are also ten cops just wrestling him down trying to restrain him, and they're telling me that at least TEN cops couldn't get a couple restraints on his body so they had to taser him? Yeah, bull.

I've seen Indecency, I've seen imbecility, I've seen inaccuracies, and so on, yet never have I seen such a display of Injustice as this. And whats worse is that a few people stood up to defend his rights to free speech including Senator John Kerry himself.

How....how is this god awful radical behavior even possible within the human mind? Especially since it wasn't a horrible slanderous question, the student just wanted to know why John gave up the 2004 election for supposedly little reason.

[galraen]

Well the first thing I noticed was that the police didn't start to get involved until he brought up the subject of disenfranchisement of black voters in the 2004 election. Which state was the worst offender on that? Florida. Which state did this happen in? Florida. The one state in the US I've sworn never to visit, since the days of Anita Bryant.

[fable]

Well the first thing I noticed was that the police didn't start to get involved until he brought up the subject of disenfranchisement of black voters in the 2004 election. Which state was the worst offender on that? Florida. Which state did this happen in? Florida. The one state in the US I've sworn never to visit, since the days of Anita Bryant.

Since moving to Ohio, I've discovered that there were a raft of accusations against the Republicans controlling the voting procedures, including the electronic machines, in 2004. Supposedly, more than twice as many votes as were needed to secure Kerry's election were lost, here. However, the lack of a clear racial powder keg (white/black/brown) as in Florida has meant the media paid no attention to Ohio.

That aside--I can't help thinking that logically a bunch of police wouldn't be told to remember specific no-no and okay talking points to consider in the heat of the crowd control moment. My thought (for what it's worth) is that occasionally we end up with state militia or local police forces that are poorly trained, or leaders who make bad calls that end up with someone hurt or killed. There was no reason for what they did; the protestor wasn't eloquently communicating fear and rage; the crowd was respectful and listening.

I would like to say that we'll get to the bottom of this since the matter will surely be investigated, but Florida has a long history of political corruption going back generations.

[Chimaera182]

Oh, good, let's trash-talk my home state.

Was the police response to this student an overreaction on their part? Possibly, but considering recent events, I'm not surprised they overreacted. But what I find funny is that, while you are quick to point out the faults of the Florida police, not one of you seemed to shed a tear or mention that four police officers were violently gunned down last week in south Florida (the culprit was found and there was a shoot-out with him right in my home town, just down the street from where I used to live, too). Does this excuse their response to the student? Of course not. But maybe--just maybe--they're a bit on edge ever since then, and there are officers who were looking to take out their frustrations over this event. Again, does this excuse them? No. But it doesn't give people so far removed from the situation the right to pass judgement from their high horses, either.

Frankly, I thought their response to the police shooting was an overreaction; my parents were driving south on the Turnpike shortly after the shooting took place, and my mother--not one for hyperbole--called me to check the news to see why she and my father had seen 40 police cars in the space of five minutes, and why traffic on the Turnpike ground to a complete halt. Between the shooting itself, and the fact that the police were lied to their faces about the actual shooter and wasted an entire day combing the entirety of the state for the wrong person, the Florida police force is suffering from quite an embarrassment. Again, does this excuse their actions at the Kerry speech? No. But police forces are made up of human beings, and no one should doubt the fallibility of humans. Hurt, embarrassed, and maybe even scared, it's predictable that the police in Florida are on edge. But it's sick to think that people take advantage of such injured feelings to make them out to be monsters.

So, let's just say that they're using the police shooting as an excuse to garner sympathy while they crack down on free speech. Let's just say they overreacted to the extreme and that tasering a student who asked fair and simple questions in an open and honest debate was wrong of them. Because clearly people who make and uphold the law are supposed to be perfect, and god forbid they ever act like human beings.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

If it's any consolation everyone knows my country's full of crooks...

Oh, good, let's trash-talk my home state.

Was the police response to this student an overreaction on their part? Possibly, but considering recent events, I'm not surprised they overreacted. But what I find funny is that, while you are quick to point out the faults of the Florida police, not one of you seemed to shed a tear or mention thgiven that four police officers were violently gunned down last week in south Florida (the culprit was found and there was a shoot-out with him right in my home town, just down the street from where I used to live, too). Does this excuse their response to the student? Of course not. But maybe--just maybe--they're a bit on edge ever since then, and there are officers who were looking to take out their frustrations over this event. Again, does this excuse them? No. But it doesn't give people so far removed from the situation the right to pass judgement from their high horses, either.

Without wanting to be overly argumentative, I've gotta disagree here: there's no 'possibly' about it. Once the guy was handcuffed and being held on the ground there was no need to taser him, making doing so a clear overreaction and IMO 'unreasonable use of force'. As noted, being tense over shootings earlier that week doesn't really excuse it, any more than it would be OK if the officer's partner had just left them or their pet dog of cat had died: it's just not relevant. I think the judgement from the high horse bit comes under the whole 'freedom of opinion' thing. On that topic, here's mine:

The guy was being an obnoxious, disruptive jerk, and despite his calls of 'Don't tase me bro' was, IMO, 'asking for it' (sorry to sound like BillO here). He gets no sympathy from me. Should he have been arrested? Probably not, though I note the police did try to escort him away 'peacefully' first and he resisted. Also, given that Kerry was asking to answer his question he should have been given the benefit of the doubt, or at least allowed to stay and hear the response (assuming he could be made to shut up long enough to do so). I'm kind of disappointed Kerry didn't stop the fiasco before the guy got led away, but I'm also kind of disappointed none of the other students told the guy to shut up and let Kerry answer the questions (which aside from the confrontational manner of delivery were important ones) as he was trying to do.
That said, the tasering was clearly over the top, especially since he was already restrained when it happened, so the officer should be disciplined accordingly. To my mind it wasn't so much wrong to taser him full stop (that point is open to debate and besides, it is kinda funny to watch) as it was to taser him when there was clearly no need to do so. That's where the problem comes in for me.

[Claudius]

I also want to know on whose authority he was told to stop speaking. On what basis? Suppose I asked a question? Would I be asked to leave? He was longwinded and emotional. A key ingredient is that he didn't listen to anyone including Kerry but rather had a rehearsed spiel he wanted to voice.

So the guy could have simply asked a question. Even if his question was "Mr. Kerry could I have a few minutes to explain my question?"

But exactly who decided that the way he was expressing himself was against 'the rules'?

[Vicsun]

But exactly who decided that the way he was expressing himself was against 'the rules'?

Probably the organizers of the event - I'm assuming he had an allotted time he didn't adhere to. I personally don't have a problem with his mic being cut after his time is out, or him being manhandled once he refused to leave, but tasering him while he was already restrained and clearly posed no threat to the police officers was an abuse of power.


@Chimaera182, of course cops are human and make mistakes, but the fact that another cop was shot dead in the same state doesn't have much relevance. I'm sure the shooter had his own set of problems and wasn't a monster either, but the fact is he opened fire on the police, killed one and injured three more. When an officer abuses their power, they should be punished regardless of circumstance, just as anyone who breaks the law should.

[Mace Panda Poo]

while you are quick to point out the faults of the Florida police, not one of you seemed to shed a tear or mention that four police officers were violently gunned down last week in south Florida

Why would someone have mentioned that in this thread? I'm not from the US so forgive me if i've missed something or don't quite understand the situation; but i see next to no relevance between a shooting that occured week ago and the Kerry Press meeting.

it's sick to think that people take advantage of such injured feelings to make them out to be monsters.

The police are being criticised for their inappropriate actions not their emotions. It is important that authorities' actions are subject to judicial review; this helps stop corruption and tries to stop reoccurances of situations such as the Kerry speech. When police brutality occurs it is the communities duty to protest.

clearly people who make and uphold the law are supposed to be perfect, and god forbid they ever act like human beings.

Nobody is perfect but there is a huge difference between being perfect and abusing your powers. The man was already restrained and posed no threat; i don't think it is normal for human beings to torture a helpless person. It is not human instinct to taser someone for expressing their right to free speech.

[lythium]

It seems mr. Kerry did want to respond to the points raised by this student and the police stepped in too soon and without reason. I think the kid deserved to hear his questioned answered. I don't much care about how much force they used and if it was too much or not. I think in the name of freedom of speech, touching him with a feather would've been a huge offense.

Maybe he was "obnoxious", but he did raise some questions that I think are very interesting to hear answered.

Anyway, I was shocked to see this video. Pun noticed.

[Chimaera182]

@Chimaera182, of course cops are human and make mistakes, but the fact that another cop was shot dead in the same state doesn't have much relevance. I'm sure the shooter had his own set of problems and wasn't a monster either, but the fact is he opened fire on the police, killed one and injured three more. When an officer abuses their power, they should be punished regardless of circumstance, just as anyone who breaks the law should.

Oh, I'm sure. Just like the incidents of racist activities against people of Middle Eastern descent in the U.S. after 9/11 has little relvance to 9/11 itself. And considering that the incident on the Turnpike last Thursday was only one in a string of anti-police events taking place in Florida (there's still a cop-killer on the loose for slaying an officer in Delray, and Monday a man shut down I-95 by threatening law enforcement officers with a shotgun [not the first time he's threatened officials, apparently], to name a few), it isn't just "one" officer being killed to take into account. The police down here are dealing with a fair share of problems lately.

Why would someone have mentioned that in this thread?

Did I say it had to be in this thread? No one posted about it, period. Police in this state have suffered several setbacks and no one talks about them, but if they sneeze inappropriately, they have people all across the world whining about it.

I'm sure the shooter had his own set of problems and wasn't a monster either

I said the same thing at the time, actually, but considering some of the facts that have surfaced about him since then, you have to wonder how many sandwiches short of a picnic he was. Then again, we only have police and local news sources to tell us about it.

Besides, this isn't about me defending the police, as I tried to make clear by repeatedly saying "does it excuse them." Ode picked up on that (I'm not saying no one else did), although he probably assumed my saying "possibly" meant that I thought it was possible they used just enough force or even too little. It's about me being insulted that people far-removed from the situation feel they have the right to pass judgement. And the "high horse" thing is quite relevant. Maybe I overreacted last night, but I was mightily annoyed; even after sleeping on it, I'm still unhappy with it.

[fable]

It's about me being insulted that people far-removed from the situation feel they have the right to pass judgement. And the "high horse" thing is quite relevant. Maybe I overreacted last night, but I was mightily annoyed; even after sleeping on it, I'm still unhappy with it.

My aunt, who lived all her life in New York City, actually knew very little about the place. Just beacuse one lives in a city or state, doesn't automatically mean one knows more about it than someone else, and this certainly applies to a lot of content that is normally hidden from view--such as corruption. The opposite applies, too. I never lived in 18th century Vienna, but I probably know more about music life there at the time than 99% of modern Viennese. I've also got friends, lawyers and activists, who are Florida natives and have worked for over 30 years in helping to reveal political corruption on a state level. So if you took offense at my judicious comments, you might want to consider that I know a bit about the subject, after having spent roughly 8 years living in the state and dealt with it myself as an anti-corruption volunteer at the time. It's possible to disagree without pointing fingers about length of residency.

[Monolith]

especially since he was already restrained when it happened

He wasn't:
Taser incident sparks more protest

Officers then proceeded to attempt to remove Meyer from the room, but when he resisted, they placed him on the ground and tried to handcuff him. The six officers who actually took part in holding Meyer down while he was being handcuffed reported that they were only able to get a handcuff on his right hand because he was squirming so much.

The supervising officer, Sgt. Eddie King, attempted to Taser Meyer on his chest, but he reported that his Taser would not deploy. He then instructed Mallo to Taser Meyer, and she Tasered him on his shoulder, according to one of the officer's report.

The officers were then able to fully handcuff Meyer and escort him from the building. Each of the six officers reported that Meyer yelled things like, "They're going to kill me," and, "They are giving me to the government," while he was being taken from the room.

He asked questions when he wasn't supposed to, when his mic was cut and he was asked out he resisted, when he was lead out he resisted even more and when he was on the ground he resisted being handcuffed and arrested. I see nothing wrong with what happened there - at least, concerning how the police behaved. They had their orders and it's their job. They could have used physical power to move his left arm in the proper position, but that could have easily led to that arm getting dislocated or worse. Tasering, while hurting more at first, doesn't cause long term damage and usually leads to the suspect stopping to resist.

I put the blame on the organizer who shouldn't have cut his mic after Kerry said it was alright to let him speak.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Didn't know that, ta, from the footage it looked like he was cuffed already.

[Chimaera182]

My aunt, who lived all her life in New York City, actually knew very little about the place. Just beacuse one lives in a city or state, doesn't automatically mean one knows more about it than someone else, and this certainly applies to a lot of content that is normally hidden from view--such as corruption. The opposite applies, too. I never lived in 18th century Vienna, but I probably know more about music life there at the time than 99% of modern Viennese. I've also got friends, lawyers and activists, who are Florida natives and have worked for over 30 years in helping to reveal political corruption on a state level. So if you took offense at my judicious comments, you might want to consider that I know a bit about the subject, after having spent roughly 8 years living in the state and dealt with it myself as an anti-corruption volunteer at the time. It's possible to disagree without pointing fingers about length of residency.

Yours wasn't the post I was thinking about, actually (in fact, I had to scroll back to read it seeing as I didn't remember you posting in here at all), but way to make it all about you. And did I ever say I know all there is to know about Florida, or did you decide to assume I was so presumptuous? Frankly, I find that to be my point exactly: people presume too much, based on secondhand knowledge which may be either incomplete or biased, and use that knowledge to pass judgement on others. It's one of those wonderful traits that people that hate America use as a stereotype of Americans. The fact that you choose to go with "all you know" as someone who spent "roughly 8 years" here dealing with it yourself "as a an anti-corruption volunteer" hasn't, maybe, colored your thinking?

I suppose with all your knowledge of corruption, you'll notice that one section of Monolith's little article is pretty much from the police officers' point of view. Covering their tracks, no doubt, making it seem like Meyer only acted up for cameras, or that the report was corroborated by eight officers (and not regular by-standers) and is clearly biased. Of course, if the article is right, then maybe instead of making me look like the bad guy you could instead acknowledge you were wrong and my feelings of outrage were actually justified.

[fable]

Yours wasn't the post I was thinking about, actually (in fact, I had to scroll back to read it seeing as I didn't remember you posting in here at all), but way to make it all about you.

I was trying to get across the point--perhaps, too gently, and maybe without sufficient focus--that it isn't all about you and your being somewhere in Florida, hence the focus in my post was entirely on what you wrote, and where I felt your ad hominem position was wrong. That focus on you was something you evidently missed, but you'll see if you read it, again. Or I can break the post down for you, point by point, and show how each sentence refers to you and your post. Fair enough?

Frankly, I find that to be my point exactly: people presume too much, based on secondhand knowledge which may be either incomplete or biased, and use that knowledge to pass judgement on others. It's one of those wonderful traits that people that hate America use as a stereotype of Americans. The fact that you choose to go with "all you know" as someone who spent "roughly 8 years" here dealing with it yourself "as a an anti-corruption volunteer" hasn't, maybe, colored your thinking?

It definitely was a mistake buying into your argument, which I did in part, when I tried to a small connection I had in Florida: silly, because being in Florida doesn't grant knowledge about the state. As you believe, with your "you don't live here, you don't know jack" kind of critique, evident in "It's about me being insulted that people far-removed from the situation feel they have the right to pass judgement." Feel free to disagree with me, instead, on the basis of your extensive on-the-spot review of materials, in a polite fashion, if you can.

I suppose with all your knowledge of corruption, you'll notice that one section of Monolith's little article is pretty much from the police officers' point of view. Covering their tracks, no doubt, making it seem like Meyer only acted up for cameras, or that the report was corroborated by eight officers (and not regular by-standers) and is clearly biased. Of course, if the article is right, then maybe instead of making me look like the bad guy you could instead acknowledge you were wrong and my feelings of outrage were actually justified.

Again, this isn't all about you, so I don't care to make you look like a "bad guy," or a good guy, for that matter. And if it comes to making criticisms about the state you live in, you're not the only one allowed to do so without getting you defensive ("Oh, good, let's trash-talk my home state.") As for Monolith's post: he clearly had more information than I did, after I did. I was wrong on several points, and didn't wait to fact-check as I should. Won't be the first time I made a mistake in SYM; won't be the last. And hardly the first time I've admitted to making one, either. You should try it, too.

In the meantime, I'm not convinced all the story is out, just yet, though the pieces that are available sure look convincing. I'd like to see what charges are filed, though, and if any other newspapers have a different slant on what happened. Regrettably, far too many newspapers go into these matters with a desire to prove a certain editorial point-of-view. (I hope we can at least agree that is often the case.) Let's see if other citizens come forward with a different story of what occurred. I'm tentatively buying what was written, but I'm doing now what I should have done, before: holding out until all the facts are in.