Devastating Assassin, feedback

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:49 am

I think I've figured out my MotB build. It's a build based on the [url="http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_devastatingrogue.html"]Devastating Rogue[/url]. In short, that's a Rogue build that uses great strength for the most powerful sneak attacks and decent criticals in the ensuing combat. The Devastating Assassin is different though.

Wood Elf, evil
20 Str
19 Dex (just for Greater 2 Weapon Fighting)
8 Con
9 Int (Good hiding & Use Magic Device. Leftovers to setting traps and Listen/Spot)
8 Wisdom
8 Charisma

My Devastating Assassin has a slightly lower AC than the Devastating Rogue, the worst magic resistance (since it doesn't compensate with Spellcraft levels), slightly less BAB since it has only one level of fighter, but it gets more Sneak Attack 1d6's in return.

One function of the Fighter level is actually to make sure I gain sneak attack d6's at even levels, so I can take a free feat and slightly improved BAB at no cost. The only function of the Assassin levels is to obtain Hide in Plain Sight without losing 1d6's in sneak attack at those even levels. Death attack stacks with sneak attack, so I kinda counted them together in the character sheet I made. After Level 20 I'll just take additional epic sneak attacks. That's the thick of it.

It plays differently from the Devastating Rogue because you avoid melee combat altogether. You dish out way more damage though, especially hasted. To make crowded combat easier, it pays off to set traps before you sneak attack. After that it's just a 5 second run and the fun starts all over again. Fighting magic types should prove interesting. I have to take them out first because I can't resist their attacks. That should be ok with wizards, armored casters will provide a tactical challenge. Especially with other fighters/casters around.

It's troublesome to copy-paste a table in this text field, so I'm going to give you a screen capture of the character sheet instead. Wait.. [url="http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o136/yunage/Image1-1.gif"]Oh lookie here it is![/url]

Now, I have three questions. No wait, four! They are multiplying.

ONE, Monkey Grip. I know all about the great disadvantages of this feat, and how it doesn't hold up to power attacks. The difference though with this build is that it isn't a Finesse type build at all. Enough strength should compensate for the loss in hit chance. Well I'll have about 25 by level 20, so I'm guessing that should work out. Umm.. does it?
TWO, Power Attack vs Cleave. People on the internets say you're better off getting Regular and Improved Power Attack than Monkey Grip. But I as far as feats go, I have plenty of room to spare so I can get all three. However, [url="http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/power.htm"]this website[/url] has me scratching my head about if Power Attack will still be useful at higher levels. If I'm reading it right, the attack bonus will actually get less? If so then I might be better off taking Cleave.
THREE, Critical Threat. I'm not sure if good critical range is the way to go here, since I'm focussing so much on sneak attacks. I assume critical damage probably isn't multiplied in the sneak attack, but I *think* the damage bonus is still added to the attack. Unmultiplied, of course. Am I right here?
FOUR, Weapon Choice. Falchions seem like a good choice here. I've taken double Falchions (normally 2-handed weapons), because we're not talking about actual combat here, and I'm still under the assumption that I can make up for the loss in Hit through strength (I already know Monkey Grip doesn't improve off-hand hit chance. If I'm correct however, it will treat a 2 handed weapon with 1 handed level penalties in the off hand). So is that sound or not?

Snipercon · Post by **Snipercon** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:09 am

Would you rather have 1d4 damage or +4 to hit. Because that is the difference between Monkey Grip and Flachilons and Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Kuris. The ONLY decent reason to go for Monkey Grip is if you are a dual weilding Scythe weapon master. Instead of thinking of a high strength compensating for Monkey Grip think of Monkey Grip reducing the benefits of your strength.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:42 am

Hm. I'm seriously starting to doubt if medium BAB is worth all those sneak attack 1d6's. It's not really a matter if Strength makes Monkey Grip worth it or not, I'm already using strength to dish out extra damage anyway, so why not use it. It just feels like I'm trowing all that strength away on a character with a very very.. VERY medium BAB.

Damn, I'll have to try something else. I wonder if they'll have a D&D wing in the sanatorium. :laugh:

zamiel · Post by **zamiel** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:46 am

Ok, my oppinions:

ONE, I think the really bad side of monkey grip is the secondary side. I mean you have to take it as a feat, and then two other two-weapon fighting feats. And to make it worse: you have to have high strength to compensate the -6 malus, and high dex, to be able to pick 2weapon fighting feats. Look at the stats you came up with, it's quite crappy: -1 hp/level, -1 will save, -1 skill/level. Are you willing to pay this price?
TWO, what people oft forget is the DR. From spells, items, spec. abilities or just because a thing has. You cannot cope with DR by dual-wielding, your offhand attacks will be worthless, while with power attack, you will still get a massive damage output.
THREE, yep, if you crit, this means weapon damage (including str and other physical damages)*crit multiplier + elemental damage and/or sneak attack damage.
FOUR, you still get the full to-hit bonus by strength to both hands, and in the off-hand the damage bonus is halved. And you will not get any *1,5 multiplier to str damage bonus, it's not for two-handed weapons, it is for using a weapon with both hands (I do hope you see the difference).

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:12 am

zamiel wrote:Are you willing to pay this price?

I tested this build a few days later. Doing 60-130 damage critical attacks to bugbears (pretty much instantly killing them every time) without extremely over-the-top modifiers on my weapons was nice.

I only lost small bits of health to arrows in between moments of invisibility. But I still think a random fighter would've lost more HP per bugbear killed.

And the whole mage bit was fairly doable as long as I kept myself hidden and took them out first. Still, it didn't feel right to have such a mediocre BAB and so much strength to go with it. And take this AC into combat against other Rogue-types of the same level and you're going to get your uvula shoved up your backside - every single time.

So that's just too much of a weakness. Not mages or fighers. Other rogues.

zamiel · Post by **zamiel** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:17 am

Also, the main thing I cannot understand is WHY you want to dual-wield large weapons AND sneak attack. Say, the difference between the average damage between a dagger for example and a falchion is significant, 100% to be exact. If you have str 24, the difference is only 9.5 versus 11, which is 16%. If you sneak attack for 10d6 as well then the average damage is 44.5 versus 46, it's 3.3%. You are better of with two daggers since you will hit much more often that way...

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:36 am

You're not listening to me. I let go of this idea days ago.