Mage/spellcaster party

[Woundead]

I was planning to play bg1/tosc again (easytutu) and was wondering if a (almost) pure part of mages could be fun?

I was planning a Sorcerer for the pc but I am open for suggestions, but what other party member should I use?

Good or evil party?
Small or big?

Do I need a thief or a tank?
Maybe imoen as thief/mage or if evil Montaron thief/tank.

Suggestions and former experience is welcome.

Thanks,
Woundead

[Crenshinibon]

First of all, if you've never played BG before, I strongly suggest playing it unmodded.

Second, I'd suggest either a Sorcerer or a Wild Mage, for simplicity, maybe even a druid or priest.

The size depends on how quickly you want to level up. The smaller the party, the more experience per member.

No. Thieves or tanks are not necessary although you might want to dual class some characters to suit your needs.

[VonDondu]

Having a Thief or a "tank" in your party would make things a lot easier. But that's exactly why you shouldn't bring one along: you might end up relying too much on your Thief/tank, which would defeat the whole purpose of playing a theme party. But it's entirely up to you.

If you need muscle or cannon fodder, summoned monsters will help. I'm not sure about Tutu, but in the original version of BG1, there was no limit to the number of monsters you could summon. It seems to me that being able to cast lots of summoning spells would make playing an all-Mage party very fun.

If I were planning to play an all-Mage theme party, I would use any (or all) of the existing NPCs who fall into the Mage category. They include Xzar (Necromancer, Evil), Xan (Enchanter, Neutral), Dynaheir (Invoker, Good), Edwin (Conjurer, Evil), and Quayle (Cleric/Illusionist, Neutral). That's certainly an interesting variety. You could also dual Imoen to a Mage, which is a very popular choice. Although her alignment is Good, she'll always get along with your main character no matter which alignment you choose.

If you want Dynaheir in your party, you'll have to keep Minsc in your party or find a way to get rid of him (which isn't too difficult). Same with Xzar--you'll either have to keep Montaron in your party or find a way to get rid of him. If you want to have a tank in your party, you might decide to keep Minsc or Montaron; and if you want a Thief in your party, you might decide to keep Montaron.

Your character's alignment should be determined by your party composition and your own playing style. When it comes to the alignment of the NPC Mages, there is a decided tilt in favor of Neutral and Evil NPCs, so Dynaheir seems to be the odd one out. She doesn't get along with the Evil NPCs--she complains about the way that Xzar "smells", and Edwin wants to kill her. Personally, I don't play with Evil parties because I don't enjoy playing evil characters, but if you don't mind playing an Evil party, then it might be right for you, and you might enjoy it.

As for party size, I think that six-member parties work best in BG1 just because of balance issues. In other words, BG1 was designed to offer balanced game play if you have a party of six who advance at the expected rate. If you have a couple of 10th level characters in, say, Chapter Five, the game is unbalanced because your characters are too powerful. I think this would especially apply to Tutu, which lets you cast a full arsenal of 4th and 5th level (and higher) BG2 spells including Stoneskin, Lower Resistance, and Spell Immunity which were not available in the original version of BG1. I'm not saying that it isn't fun to play extremely powerful characters; but BG1 was a lot more fun to me when it was so challenging that it was scary. Therefore, I would play a six-member party so that my characters would advance at the appropriate rate.

Besides, if you're playing a theme party, the theme is a lot more meaningful if you have a full six-member party instead of a two-member or three-member party.

I don't see anything wrong with compromising a little bit as long as it doesn't have an adverse effect on your theme. For example, I don't think it would hurt to have a Mage/Thief in your party to take care of all those pesky traps as long as you don't backstab all of the monsters. In practice, this means that you could have a character like Imoen in your party (dual-classed to a Mage), but you should put all of her thieving points into Find Traps and Open Locks (don't put any extra points into Stealth).

I've never tried a party like that, but it does sound like a lot of fun.

[Woundead]

Thanks for the replies.

Now it comes to what is worth to sacrifice for pure "mage-iness".

Tank can I probably be without

Thief
-Chest: Will knock be enough?
-Traps: Best way to handle these?

Cleric
- Healing: Is it a must?

I know its possible to manage without these, but like traps it is probably annoying to trigger them, especially with no healing.


Party Setup:

Evil
PC: Sorc - are they fun i bg?
Xzar: Mage
Edwin: Mage
Viconica: Cleric/Tank
(Montaron: Trapfinder/tank)
or
(Kagain: Tank/Traptriggerer)
or
(Xan: extra mage)

Good:

PC: Sorc
Imoen: Thief/mage Trapfinder(/Lock opener?)
Dynahier: Mage
Branwen: Cleric/Tank
Xan: Mage

Mix aka Imoen + Evil
PC: Sorc
Imoen: Thief/mage - is there any problem with her + evil npcs? (aka will someone leave party?)
Edwin: mage
Xzar: mage
Viconia: Cleric/tankish

Any Suggestions, Opinions are very welcome

Thanks,

Woundead

[VonDondu]

You can survive without a tank in your party. Missile weapons, wands, spells, summoned monsters, and the occasional melee attack should get the job done, especially if you can cripple your enemies with spells such as Web, Hold Monster, Emotion, Chromatic Orb (it stuns opponents at higher levels), etc.

A Thief is more difficult to live without. If one of your characters starts with Strength 18, you can use the Manual of Gainful Exercise to raise it to 19, which will give you a fairly decent chance to force open locks. Unfortunately, the tome is not available until late in the game. Knock spells get the job done, so maybe you don't need to worry about locks as long as you rest frequently to refresh your spells. If you have a Cleric in your party, you can cast Find Traps. Summoned monsters can set off some of the traps in BG1 (although I'm not sure how well it works in Tutu). If you have to walk over them yourself, Mirror Image will protect you from most forms of damage. If you don't have a Thief in your party, having six Mages in your party is probably the next best thing.

Healing spells are useful, but they are probably overrated. As a rule of thumb, if you don't take any damage, you don't need any healing. And you can usually recover most of your hit points if you rest long enough.

I don't think I'd want to play a Sorcerer in BG1. Have you seen the spell progression table? You won't have enough spells.

Imoen does not have any conflicts with any of the NPCs.

You might consider the following party:

PC: Conjurer (Neutral or Evil)
Imoen: Thief dualled to Mage (make her a Specialist Mage if you can do that in Tutu)
Edwin: Conjurer
Xan: Enchanter
Quayle: Cleric/Illusionist

For the sixth party member, you can choose from Xzar, Tiax, or Safana (she can dual to a Mage if you give her the tome that raises Intelligence). You might also consider adding a Bard to your party, but personally I don't really care for Garrick or Eldoth.

Have you considered any of the NPC mods that are available for Tutu? I don't know much about them, but they might offer some choices that are even better.

[Crenshinibon]

When playing, I would start with a few party members and get a few more once you're a decent level.

I like what VonDondu posted here. It has a mix of mages as well as other classes, a cleric and a thief. Quayle would probably do more melee than anyone else as Imoen would probably be ranged, except for the opening with a backstab... or unless you keep having her go invisible or run far enough to hide in shadows.

On a side note, what's experience point requirement for a mage to reach his/her highest possible level in ToSC and where can you find Monster Summoning III scrolls?

[Woundead]

Thanks for the replies.

I "tested" the spellprogression for a sorc vs gnome Illusionist;
at lvl 9 the get:
Sorc: 6/6/6/4 - total 22 with Ring of wizardy: 28
Illusi: 5/4/4/3/2 - total 18 with Ring of wizardy: 23

So sorc get less highlevel spells, but more lowlevel that will probably be a good thing at least in BG1.

I startet yesterday:
PC:
Human Sorc
18|19|16|13|3|18 (the best I could roll, is int/wis important for me in any way?)

Planned npcs:
Imoen; Dual when skills are enough
What is sufficient skills for:
Find Traps: 75?
Open Locks: 85? I think it was 85% in bg2
Xzar: dump montaron in a house
Edwin: kill dynahier
Viconia: Viconia
Open Slot: Will probably not fill it.

Total 5 npcs, level a little faster, but not to fast
4 mages + 1 cleric (+ 1/2 Thief)

[Crenshinibon]

Humans can't start with 19 dexterity.

For a sorcerer, you don't need Wisdom or Intelligence.

[VonDondu]

I "tested" the spell progression for a sorc vs gnome Illusionist;
at lvl 9 the get:
Sorc: 6/6/6/4 - total 22 with Ring of wizardy: 28
Illusi: 5/4/4/3/2 - total 18 with Ring of wizardy: 23

When I said that a Sorcerer wouldn't have "enough spells" in BG1, I was referring to the number of spells you can put in your spellbook.

Besides, looking at the spells your character can cast at 9th level is a bit too optimistic. First of all, with a party of five, you probably won't make it to 9th level before you finish BG1 (you might end up with about 240,000 experience points if you finish all of the quests). Second of all, knowing what you can do at 9th level doesn't shed any light on what the game is like when you're only 4th or 5th level. That's when you'll be wishing that you had more spells to choose from in your spellbook.

But of course it's up to you to decide whether you think playing a Sorcerer in BG1 Tutu is fun. Some people actually enjoy putting restrictions on themselves. And in your own case, you might not feel like you're "restricted" at all. Go ahead and play a Sorcerer if you feel like it, and tell us what it's like.

What is sufficient skills for:
Find Traps: 75?
Open Locks: 85? I think it was 85% in bg2

There are a handful of traps that require a skill of 100 to detect and disarm. There are actually quite a few that require a skill of 90, most of which are in Durlag's Tower and the last few areas of the game. Consequently, I'd put 90 or 100 points in Find Traps.

You can get by with about 60 points in Open Locks (that will allow you to cope with about 85-90% of all the locks in the game), but keep your Knock spells handy, or use potions to increase your thieving skills. (There aren't many Potions of Master Thievery in the game, but you can also use Potions of Perception and Potions of Power to improve your chance of picking locks.)

By the way, there are a couple of other message threads you might want to read:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldu ... 86168.html

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldu ... 81592.html

I'm afraid that you might have trouble deciding which spells to give to your Sorcerer, especially if you plan to play all the way through Throne of Bhaal with the same character. Spells that are effective in BG1 lose their effectiveness in BG2, so you have to make some tough choices early in the game. But look at the suggestions we made in those other message threads and see what you think.

[Woundead]

Thanks for replies:


The sorc is elven, my bad x(

I will most likley not play bg2/tob with this char.

I will probably play as a sorc, even tough a spec-wizard seems better.

The sorc can "spam" more, and I will have 2 spec-wizards wich can handle diversity in spells. + a regular mage, Imoen.

Nice threads for the spellpicking.

But as I have 3 other mages, the Sorc should have only spells that are "cast a lot", things like haste is probably skipable duo the lack of warriors.

So what are the spell recommendations?

Thanks, Woundead

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I played a Sorceror all the way though and let me tell you it was easy and fun. As long as you know what your doing you'lll be fine. Just think carefully on how to distribute spells. I would consider taking Minsc with Dynaheir, It makes roleplaying "sense" and IMHO without all the core classes the game is alot harder. Imoen covers Thief and Mage the Rest cover Mage or Cleric but what about a good tank for routine killing ?? Gibberlongs for example, but it doesn't end there.

[Woundead]

A quick overview report:

I have now flooded ankeheg mines. My Party consist of:
PC: Elf Sorc lvl 6, Robe of neutral arch magi
Cromatic Orb/Magic Missile/Sleep/Spook
Glitterdust/Melfs
Fireball

Edwin lvl 6 robe of evil arch magi

Viconia lvl 6 anghek platemail

Xzar lvl 6 travelers robe or something

Imoen, lvl 5 thief / lvl 6 mage robe of good arch magi (100 find traps / 75 open locks)



I have been fairly easy yet, I havent meet any resistens I couldnt handle.

Most kills have been with slings, as early mages dont have enough spells.

One glitch was found; If you give Imoen the "Always detect traps"-script she continues to do it even after she have dual, but she cannot disam them any way.


What I think about the sorcerer som far; Good class when combined with regular mages, but for power I would probably chose figther dual to mage or figther/illusionist, but then again the fighter ruins a little of the purity.


Any comments or questions on this?

Can I go to any of the ToSC-areas now, or is my party to weak? (havent played those areas yet.


Thanks,

Woundead

[Crenshinibon]

As a mage, it vital that you pick up your Ring of Wizardry at the Friendly Arms in as it doubles your level one spells. Even if you're not a mage, it sells for 9k.

I know it's too late but I found that a level five fighter or fallen paladin dualed to a specialist mage (Conjurer as their oposing school isn't that significant) is a very powerful build. Unbuffed, with the Robe of Good Archmagi I had at most -8 AC and a THAC0 of five, making one and a half attacks per round. SHould you chose to give up one AC and equip one Ring of Wizardry, you'll be able to cast ten level one spells per day. This combination can serve as a full time caster as well as a fighter. The five fighter levels do not cause you to lose ANY levels of mage so you might as well take them. This character currently has 76 hit points, 66 with the Claw of Kazgaroth equipped. If you want to use her as a fighter simply equip a NORMAL full plate mail for a total of -12 AC. Fully buffed, she has her mirror images, three attacks per round due to haste and an amazing -17 AC with the help of Shield, Spirit Armor, Blur and Protection From Evil. If you feel like you need to do it, Blur and Protection From Evil stack with themselves. That AC is while wearing the Robe of the Good Archmagi and equipping a fullplate doesn't change the AC so this means that you can still cast spells to your heart's content while fighting as you CAN make your three attacks AND cast a spell without having to wait for the round to end. Also, if you're ever in a pinch, don't forget that you are a full level mage and can cast Monster Summoning III for Dire Wolves, Worgs, Orgrillions or even Ogres and you can haste them to make their presence that much more meaningful. I should probably note that depending on item choice, you would be almost completely immune to any ranged attacks (save for spells and except on a critical hit).

I'm a big fan of wands in BGI so if you get your hands on them, use them ALWAYS. Don't feel sorry for them. Personally, I'd use my spells to buff myself and use the wands as well as other charged items for the on the go offensive. Don't forget to recharge your wands though.

As for purity, don't you have Imoen in your party?

[Woundead]

Yeah, I picked uo the Ring of Wizardy at the start.

My sorc is wearing it.

By so far I think the Sorc is really powerfull, duo the flexibillity to dont have to remember specific spells. I am such I player that doesnt like to rest unless I have used all my spells.

As for wands I use them sometimes, though I think they are very overpowered.
I used mostly the wand of missiles in the beginning to hurt immune beings.

I fun thing with many mages is the "launch 3-4 fireballs" and watch the fun begin/end.

Facing "parties" of mixed warrior/mages is probably the most fun.

As for purity and Imoen; she isnt completly pure as mage, but she doesnt sacfrice to much either.

But as far I havent had much use of her thief abilities, I hope the are more useful in the TotSC part.

I will probably leave for TotSC soon, wich part should I begin with do you think?

Thanks,
Woundead