WS ► T vs Berz ► Thief

[chaosjinni]

After all the great advice from my other threads and from searching the forum, I've decided that my theme will be anti-arcane.

I'm looking these two dual-class options: Wizardslayer dualled to a thief, and Berzerker dualled to a thief.
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1. Would you compare and contrast them for me?

2. What are the best levels to dual at?
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[kmonster]

1. The wizard slayer kit offers hardly any benefit but has horrible restrictions. He can't use any magical items except weapons and armor, no cloaks, rings, bracers, gauntlets, ..., not even buffing potions. And it makes a huge difference whether you have this equipment or not.
With ToB the UAI HLA can cancel the restriction, but you get it far too late.

The berserker kit gets only a little restriction but his immunities while enraged can make some of the hardest battle in the game much easier.


2. Right at the start (level7) or at level 9, waiting longer makes only sense if the thief class isn't important for you before most of the game is over.

[chaosjinni]

Looks pretty clear-cut. Thanks kmonster.

[Cuchulain82]

Looks pretty clear-cut. Thanks kmonster.

It's not quite that clear cut.

Back when I frequented GB with a frequency, I posted a long diatribe about how great Fighter->Theives were. Vondu and I went back and forth for a while, and I linked to it in later threads. It took me a while, but the original post is [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn-9/party-formation-help-please-criticise-before-i-go-58680-p2.html#post620887"]here[/url]. There are links to other threads in the text, and you can check them out if you want. The text is below, so enjoy!

The following are arguments that have been made before, but since I was asked, I thought I should spell out the benefits of Firghter-Thief dual classing.

Theif kits are good, but I think that the transition from Fighter to Thief makes much more sense, because most of the benefits of being a fighter can be gained by 9th level. Think about it- more HP, weapon spec/mastry, lower THACo, more attacks, etc.- these are things you need earlier in the game. As the game progresses it is less important to have a beefy character than it is to have solid tactics and a party that works well together.

Mages and Sorcerers start off limited at lower levels and become more powerful as they gain XP- this isn't a terrible problem in BGII because everyone starts off at 7th lvl, but anyone who played BGI or pnp knows that the mages are very weak in the early levels (say, lvls 1-5). Fighters, however, are exactly the opposite- they are relativly strongest early, with big weapons, big armor, and lots of hp. As time passes, their abilities continue to improve, but not at nearly as strong a rate as other classes- after 9th level you stop using hit dice, and after 22 THACo stops too. AC and saves at that point are not as necessary, and all enemies are uber-enemies.

If you are thinking about Fighter-Theif dualclassing, first consider XP- Thieves advance faster than any class. So, not only will you be able to gain more lvls by going fighter-theif than theif-fighter, you will also get them back much sooner. If you dual at lvl 9, you can probably have your fighter abilities back by chapter 3.

Next consider the high level abilites. Fighters have cool abilities, no doubt, and if you just have to have greater whirlwind, then by all means go fighter. But Thieves get access to what is weidely considered the best ability in the game: use any item. Also, the theif has access to some of the other cheesiest abilities- the various traps. By the time my Kensai-Thief got UAI, he was so powerful it was disgusting. He was in full armor and equipment, weilding the Staff of Magi and backstabbing anything and everything. He was essentially an invisible, trap detecting/setting, backstabbing, armed-to-the-teeth killing machine. He was the ultimate scout, trapper, mage-killer, dungeon crawler, and toe-to-toe fighter. He was so powerful that using the Staff was the only cheese tactic I employed- unless the battle was really tough, I didn't even bother to mess with traps because they took too much time.

If you don't like super strong characters then don't play a fighter thief, but I liked this character for three basic reasons:
-Very adaptable- I like my characters to be able to do everything
-Great potential- no matter where I was in the game, leveling was always fun because there was always something new to try out.
-Roleplaying- The character was super strong, but still seemed organic. I could see my character becoming a very stong fighter but then having an identity crisis or sorts and wondering if he should be more adaptable... so he left his kensai ways behind, started studying other tactics, trying different things... you get the idea. For any kit this can be true- Wiz Slayers, Berzerkers, vanilla, whatever- the progression feels very natural.

For me the bottom line of Fighter-Thief or Thief-Fighter is something like this: If you want a fighter with a few thiefy tricks, go Thief-Fighter. If you want a character is among the most powerful in the game, that does all the stuff listed above and can use all equipment in the game (just think about scroll use- I didn't even talk about that) then go Fighter-Theif.

Regarding which kit you should choose as a fighter, it really depends upon what you feel like. Think about if you want to dual weild or use two handed weapons. Check out this post I made a while back- I wrote a few lines about different kit possibilities.

Any more questions, reply or PM

The above could basically be in your other thread as well. As per the question of whether or not to use a Berzerker or a Wizard Slayer, just consider the following:

-UAI wipes out all Wiz Slayer restrictions to items- armor, weapons, whatever. That means you get all bonuses at no cost (except for the time it took to get UAI)
-The Berzerk ability has to be activated (I really, really despise buffing)

[chaosjinni]

Heh, there's always another perspective, isn't there?

Thanks Cuchulain I'm reading your thread now...

[Saros]

Dualling at lvl 13, definitely. A little micromanagement with the quest order and a little solo play and you'll have a tough berserker/thief or WS/thief, with maximum attacks possible. Also, at lvl 13, the Berserker gains his fourth per day Enrage.

I've soloed a Wizard Slayer on insane Ascension, so I'd say, he's powerful when not dualled at all. His spellcasting penalty applies on hit(ranged or melee), but lasts only a couple of rounds(3). The best thing about the WS is his total score of 84% MR at lvl 40, which helps a lot in many situations, although not always. A WS/thief will lack the nice MR and will have only the spell failure penalty, plus will be weak most of the game because you need the UAI as fast as you can, anc will not get it very soon. Until then your character will be very weak. And after that will not be very useful either. A Kensai/Thief or Berserker/Thief are the right kit choices here. Berserker would be easiest, once you have him at lvl 14/13, which should be in the end of chapter 3.

[Cuchulain82]

Let's try to set this straight

Okay Chaosjinni, you PMed me. Normally I don't post PMs, but it seems so relevant to the thread that I thought it'd be easier for all involved if I just answered in thread. (If this is a gross violation of your trust, then mea culpa. I will delete the post if necessary).

Anyway, here's your PM question:

using this party: Keldorn, Jaheira, Anomen...

What do you recommend as your best PC class... By best I mean useful all the time (no babysitting), no buffing needed (I also don't like buffing, but was somewhat swayed by those supporting berzerkers).

Obviously I'll want some fighting and some thieving. Multi? Dual? Single?

Thanks.

The answer, as any law student will tell you, is...

it depends!

First of all, a few things:

-I've never played through ascencion but I have played through ToB, so that's what I'm assuming you're doing. I believe in [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn-9/turning-over-a-new-thief-94266.html"]the other thread[/url] you said you have ToB. This matters primarily because of the XP cap. If you've got ToB, multiclass options weigh heavier because of earleir HLAs. If SoA only, dual classing is by far better than multiclassing.
-The fighter-thief, multi- or dual-classed, is, for me, the most powerful class in the game. This is without argument. It is the most versatile, the most capable, and the most fun to play. Other great options include: some sort of magic-user (not really my bag), a Ranger-Cleric (a true nigmare because of summoning and melee ability), and a Paladin (this game does love the do-gooders).

With that in mind, consider the following:

-How badly to you need to get HLAs? Or, in other words, how long can you handle waiting for full strength?
I hate waiting. So, when I play through, I usually dual at 9 or 12, or just take multi-classed options. I simply do not like having to deal with 15 levels of not having my guy at full strength, and then another I-don't-know-how-many levels of waiting to get my first HLA (which should ALWAYS be UAI for a theif- no questions).

If you have the patience I don't have, then hold out as long as you can to dual. 15 is almost certainly enough, even though 18 will turn you into a bonefide tank. Anything after 12 or 13 (13 for the extra attack) is probably getting into the territory of marginal returns.

If you want HLAs as soon as possible, multiclass.

-What weapon do you want to use?
This matters. This matters alot. There area a few uber-weapons in the game. At the risk of spoilers (how can there be spoilers for a game that is 5-6 years old?) I'll say the following: one is a two-handed sword, one is a warhammer, and then there are other ones worth mentioning- a longsword, an axe, arguably a katana, maybe a flail... etc.

So, if you know what weapon you want, and you know how your character is going to be from start-to-finish, then considering this is necessary. Why? Because the choice to dual or multi effects your proficiencies and their distribution. The short answer is that dual characters get many more profs, and (fighters) can put up to 5 in a weapon, as opposed to 2 for a multi. This is a big difference.

Note: your choice of weapon should be somewhat dictated by your companions. In your case, with Keldorn is squared up to take the best weapon in the game (the two handed sword) and Anomen is needs either the flail or the hammer, if not both. If you don't give Keldorn the two hander, then you'll give him probably give him the long sword later in the game. However, I digress- just think of this stuff ahead of time. Dual-weilding, weapon configuration... this is what makes the difference between a very strong character and one of legend.

-How much does race matter?
As Vondu already pointed out in the other thread, a half-orc can make a brillaint F/Th because of the starting stats. Halflings get great theiving and dex bonuses. Elves also get dex and theiving bonuses, as well as combat bonuses with longsword and longbow. Dwarves have Con and save bonuses, as well as the option to get to 20 con if you played through BG1 and got the tomes (as someone else pointed out in the other thread- Galuf maybe?). Any or all of these things can be a fine reason to choose to be non-human and, ergo, multiclass.


-The Kensai v. Berzerker v. WS debate for a F->Th is an interesting one. Kensais have the best combat bonuses that apply all the time, but that is about it. Berzerkers have bonuses that are almost as good, but you have to buff. Wizard Slayers have totally different bonuses, but all liabilities disappear when you get UAI.

Personally? I like Berzerkers for the following reasons: As much as I hate buffing (and I really, really hate buffing), I hate mind control and level draining more. Level draining is easy- just get an amulet or other item that precludes energy draining. But mind control? That's a pain. But the berzerker rage gives very strong protection from most mind control effect. So, if you have to go kill a nest of mind-flayers, you're ready (just watch the INT drain).

With that said, I often play kensais- they're just easy. They get bonuses that, at level 12, are about the same as a berzerker's rage. I especially like kensais if I'm dualing to Mage (which is not what we're talking about here).

Some further considerations:

-Consider a mage: Your party looks fine (Keldorn, Anomen, and Jaheira) with one GLARING exception- no mage. You really need a mage, and not just because of the firepower. Having a mage makes life in and out of combat easier, yes, but furthermore, it makes the game much, much more enjoyable. Think about what makes fantasy what it is, and I'm sure high on any list is Magic. If you don't have a mage you'll have too many items you can't use, and silly little things will frustrate you. You've got plenty of beef (all four characters are front-liners, to varying degrees) so consider either Aerie or Jan. Jan is probably a better choice, both for roleplaying reasons and strategic reasons, but either is great. Aerie particularly has the potential to be a spell-casting powerhouse because of her synergy between cleric and mage. Fable is especially fond of turning her into a walking artillery battery, usually rivaled only by Sorcerers.

-Get the Staff of the magi: Get the staff and use it. It is the single best item any F/Th can have. Why? It makes you effectively undetectable. Equip it and you're invisible! So then backstab, pause... and do it all over again! Lather, rinse, repeat! It's one of the best cheeses in the game, and one that I use consistently. Personally, although I find it overpowered, I don't think it is cheating or even out of line. The staff of the magi was a hugely powerful item in the pnp game, so it is fitting that it is similar in BGII.

-So, what would I choose? When I pick a character, I close my eyes and think of a character. Evil or good? Happy? Not? Stealthy? Ugly? What does he look like? Who is he romanced to? Once I answer those questions, I choose a guy. Usually it is one of the following: F-->Th, human, either Kensai or Berzerker; two handed sword or dual-weilder OR elf F/Th; longsword and hammer or axe focus. But hey, that's just me... you've gotta figure out who's right for you.

Good luck!

[chaosjinni]

Well thought-out and you gave me lots more to think about. I also HATE waiting.

In the interim between posts, I started with a human fighter (no kit) with the intent being to dual to a thief. I'm trying to get level 9 before I dual, and it's really quite frustrating with no thief. I don't want to take on any more NPC's as that splits the EXP.

I'm thinking of starting over with a multi-class or a single class.

Thanks!

[GawainBS]

How about a F/M/T? It offers you badly needed magic, thieving skills, and it's a good fighter. The divided XP is partially cancelled out by the fact that you only have 4 members in your party.

[Crenshinibon]

Actually, another thing to consider is a 14 fighter/ xx thief. If you reach full level, this will only take off ONE level from the maximum thief. This was you have no real restrictions and you're a more or less basic character. Also, unlike a normal thief, you DO have melee strength and a THAC0 that's good enough to hit most of the time. Also, you gain gain a LOT of AC if need be. Also, just a side note, the traps in the second room of the starting place has multiple traps, each of which is worth about 3450 exp. so as you can see, disarming traps gives you a hefty exp bonus, so does opening locks.

[GawainBS]

Actually, another thing to consider is a 14 fighter/ xx thief. If you reach full level, this will only take off ONE level from the maximum thief. This was you have no real restrictions and you're a more or less basic character. Also, unlike a normal thief, you DO have melee strength and a THAC0 that's good enough to hit most of the time. Also, you gain gain a LOT of AC if need be. Also, just a side note, the traps in the second room of the starting place has multiple traps, each of which is worth about 3450 exp. so as you can see, disarming traps gives you a hefty exp bonus, so does opening locks.

Why 14? I thought the extra half attack was gained at lvl 13 Fighter/Ranger/Paladin.

[Crenshinibon]

Well, either way, it doesn't matter, you'll still come out to level thirty nine as a thief. Experience is never a problem. So by taking that level I think your THAC0 improves AND you get a few bonus hitpoints.

[Klorox]

If you have ToB installed, dual at level 13.

And for goodness sake, play a Berserker. A Wiz Slayer is great when you get HLAs, but very frustrating up to that point.

[Crenshinibon]

Yeah, spellcaster are easy to pick off anyway and the ones who you really would need the ability against are immune to it. My suggestions would be either Berzerker or Kensai, the latter one would be harder to play but more powerful in the end, also, it depends on ehen you want to dual class. The Kensai 24/Thief 27 for example is VERY strong in melee, has great AC and has about 560 points to allocate into skills. Assuming you're using a certain beating stick, you can do 700 damage on a critical backstab affected by Kai or about 300 damage on a normal one.

[chaosjinni]

For the record: I do have TOB installed.

Thanks guys... now why is the kensai more difficult to play, Crensh?

[Crenshinibon]

Well, while all other fighter type kits can wear armor, the Kensai can't. Well, only rings, amulets, cloaks and boots.

So while you have great offensive capabilities, your defense is severely lacking, even if you do start with a -2 bonus to your AC. When you dual class, you WILL be able to use armor and everything restricted by your first class, however, once you regain the abilities of the first class, the restrictions come back. You can always buff yourself with other party members to keep a good AC and other items such as amulets rings, cloaks and even weapons grant AC bonuses, there's even one style (proficiency) that gives you an AC bonus when wielding one weapon.

In this case, after you dual class to a thief, it shouldn't be that hard to regain your abilities as you can get experience for picking locks and disarming traps and in general, Thieves level faster than any other class. Also, it is important to note that whatever to hit and damage bonuses you gained as a Kensai stay once you dual class into a Thief and are still in effect! Already this will make you stronger than an ordinary rogue.

Once you regain your abilities, play the thief/assassin role until you reach level 25 in your thief class. So mainly backstab and I guess you can fight in close quarters if you're protected.

At level 25 though, you gain access to the thief pool and the ability you want to take is Use Any Item, which will, amazingly enough, let you use any item in the game, given that you mean stat requirements. After that point it is smooth sailing.

[GawainBS]

A Kensai can't wear armour, robes, or bracers of any kind. (IIRC, he can wear bracers, but not those that grant an AC bonus.) Maybe UAI can solve this, but there are other ways around it too: let a druid cast Barkskin on the Kensai, use the Brooch of Shielding, etc.

[Crenshinibon]

Still, as a thief after dual classing, you should mostly be backstabbing. Also, if you are a Kensai/Mage, you CAN wear robes.