When to go to Watcher's Keep

[wise grimwald]

I am wondering what is the best time to go to Watcher's Keep.
I have been going in before choosing who to side with in the thief/vampire conflict. However it is quite difficult and once equipped there, the other quests seem a little on the easy side. What I am wondering is this:Is it better to wait until you have been through the underdark or even later?

[Sytze]

I usually won't head to Watcher's Keep until ToB and for a number of reasons.

First, if you finish the Keep in SoA, all the other quests seem trivial in comparison. Second, I consider ToB much too linear and the Keep a welcome relief from the destined path laid out before you. Third, even in ToB the Keep still can prove quite difficult, while in SoA it might at times seem impossible.

Just my two cents, though.

[VonDondu]

I prefer to wait until I'm finished with Saradush in Throne of Bhaal before I go to Watcher's Keep. First of all, it keeps Shadows of Amn from becoming too easy. Second of all, Throne of Bhaal is practically linear, so it's nice to have a quest that breaks it up. And finally, the difficulty of Watcher's Keep is determined by the level of your party--that is, extra traps and monsters spawn if your party is higher in level. If you go in at a relatively low level, you'll miss some of them.

[galraen]

I usually clear out the first level as soon as possible after exiting Chateau Irenicus, normally doing the Slavery quest first. I then don't do the rest until finishing Saradush (sp?).

[Celacena]

I like to tackle it nice and early - there is some good xp and items on offer AND if you can get as far as the gambling Cambion, you get a chance to pickpocket the deck of many things which is potentially 1,000,000 xp. that is a way of getting a dual class character up to level.

OK, so getting out again isn't that easy - the enemies in WK are very tough and the traps lethal, but get out and you have a good edge in getting bonus xp.

after WK, many of the quests seem under-powered, so you might skip a lot of the side quests and go to rescue imoen.

I'm in Underdark at the moment having done precisely that - I am debating whether to storm the drow city and destroy it by sheer force of arms, or whether to do the quests. I popped over and fought the demon knights for a handy girdle, killed the Prince and am seriously considering a raid on the Beholders lair. I have decided that nothing is attractive enough to make me endure the mind-flayers section.

my character is Chaotic Neutral, so the expediency of wasting UsNatha may appeal. I am over-burdened with casters, but my wild mage may have fun.

[Saros]

Well, unfortunately, while WK makes the rest of SoA too easy, if cleared in chapter 2, in ToB going to WK is too easy, because of the many items you'll get in the starting ToB chapters. For instance - all of your party will be equipped with Boots of Speed, and you'll have all available spells at your disposal. While going to WK in chapter 2 and clearing it before going to the Asylum is something very hard and worth trying. Indeed, some random monster groups will be weaker, but the Last Seal fights and Demogogron are as tough as ever.

I compared - tried to overrun WK with a solo Wizard-Slayer on insane in chapter six, SoA. I got killed on the 3rd floor, by demons. Tried 2 more times for fun, and was killed by other demons. But when I tried the same level with some stuff from ToB, and it turned out to be too easy. The demons couldn't harm me because of the many Hardinesses+Roranarch's Horn+DoE. Actually, I healed from their Crushing attacks. And the lower level, with the Gith and the MindFlayers, was too easy due to the Psion's Blade obtained in Yaga's Lair. Not to mention the Last Seal fights, which were decided mainly by the Axe of the Unyielding +5.

So, if you want a tough WK, go there in chapter 2. If you want a walk in the park - save it for ToB.

[wise grimwald]

It looks like whatever I do, some parts are going to be too easy. So it is up to me to decide which I want to be difficult. VonDondu's reply made me wonder how many of the areas depend on the level of my party. Is it just Watcher's Keep, or are there others which I should save for later?

[VonDondu]

There are several "level triggers" scattered about. For example, there are a couple in Firkraag's domain that spawn larger groups of wolfweres if your party is higher in level. When you confront Vellin Dahn in the tanner's basement, a bone golem will spawn if your party is higher in level. I'm not certain, but I think that liches will spawn in the ruined temple near Umar Hills (when they otherwise wouldn't).

Generally speaking, I don't think you should go out of your way to maximize the number of monsters you meet. But if you're concerned about any part of the game being too easy, then saving Watcher's Keep until you start Throne of Bhaal will make the biggest difference.

[wise grimwald]

Thanks.
All the adice was helpful and welcome.

[galraen]

I'm not certain, but I think that liches will spawn in the ruined temple near Umar Hills (when they otherwise wouldn't).

I can confirm that, also a Lich will spawn in the area just before the Beholder lair (where the Gauntlets of Dexterity are) in the Unseeing Eye quest. Not sure how the leveling is calculated though, it doesn't seem to be the protagonists level itself, but could be total levels/number of characters or something.

[MasterDarkNinja]

I tend to generally go there early for the containers (the potion bag, the ammo belt) and then leave (because I almost always solo, so I need those bags to carry stuff).

Later on in TOB when you can teleport out of Watchers Keep and into a safe place to rest I come back to it and finish the whole thing.

[Thrifalas]

Tactic mod have a component that gives you the hardest fights in all places. I did planar sphere right after Chateau Irenicus and well, I had to run away from the Adamantine Golem, so to speak. ^^

I tend to do the keep in one run, usually right after having killed Yaga-Shura, but it's just a taste issue really.

[VonDondu]

I can confirm that, also a Lich will spawn in the area just before the Beholder lair (where the Gauntlets of Dexterity are) in the Unseeing Eye quest. Not sure how the leveling is calculated though, it doesn't seem to be the protagonists level itself, but could be total levels/number of characters or something.

That reminds me--when you, uh, "repair" the bridge in the Rift Area of the Unseeing Eye quest, you will be met by either a single gauth, a small group of gauths, or a large group of full-size beholders.

The game calculates the average level of your party. Multi-class characters and dual-classed characters are at a disadvantage, because equal weight is given to both classes.

I'm not certain, but I think there might also be a few extra monsters and traps here and there if you are in Chapter Six. The game doesn't consider the level of your party; it is sufficient to be in Chapter Six. As Thrifalas pointed out, you can use one of the components in the Tactics mod to set all encounters at their maximum difficulty, which is the only component I use on a regular basis.

[Saros]

The exact places of the most notable random monster spawns in chapters 2, 3 and 4:

Temple Ruins - above the Fire Lake - either a Bone Golem, 2 Mummies and 2 Skeleton Warriors, or a Lich+2 Greater Mummies + 2 Skeleton Warriors.

Temple Ruins - letter puzzle - the same as above.

Unseeing eye undead city - same as above

Spellhold Asylum - Library - same as above.

Firkraag's dungeon - golem group right after the orcish archers(lvl 2) - either not appearing(too low level party), or 1 Iron Golem + 1 Clay Golem + 2 Stone Golems, or 1 Adamantine Golem + 2 Stone Golems.

Firkraag Dungeon - Bridge near the well - same as above

Firkraag Dungeon - Wolfwere encounter after Samia - either 1 Greater Wolfwere+2 Wolfweres + 2 Dread wolfs, or 3 Greater Wolfweres + 2 Dread Wolfs.

Firkraag Dungeon - a group of six vampires will spawn if party is experienced enough.

Planar Sphere - all golem encounters - look above.

Sewers lvl 3 - either a group of 3 Gauths or 3 Beholders+2Gauths will spawn.

Unseeing Eye lair - a random spawn of 3 Beholders+3 Gauths if party is of high enough level.

Mekrath's Lab - either a group of 5 Yuan-ti + Yuan-ti Mage, or a group of 5 UmberHulks, or a group of 3 Yuan-ti Mages+Greater Yuan-Ti+2 Yuan-ti will spawn in the bedroom.

Planar Prison - same as above. There are 2 encounters, one beneath the Wyvern, the other in the battle with the gambion.

Nalia's Keep - either a group of 5 Trolls, or 2 Trolls+Giant Troll+Spirit Troll+Spectral Troll or 2 Trolls+3 Spirit Trolls will spawn in the dining room on the first floor.

Druid Grove - same as above.


In WK, if party is of high enough level, whlie resting on lvl 3 or 4, a group of Bone Fiends will spawn. These attack with cold damage and their attacks are considered normal weapons, and they are not undead nor golems. With that knowledge, whole groups of those can be eliminated. Considering the fact that each Bone Fiend is worth 22 000 xp, this is an experience mining.

[Klorox]

I like doing Level 1 in Chapter 2/3, and level 2 in Chapter 6. The rest I save for ToB.

[VonDondu]

The exact places of the most notable random monster spawns in chapters 2, 3 and 4:

Thanks for the detailed information.

It looks like there's a case to be made that most of the sidequests should be done in Chapter Six instead of Chapter Two.

[Dummy]

well, i think its often the best thing to just, start several quest, and not finish them, eg to too a few of the umar hills but then stop when to go into the temple
same thing with the windspeer hills,

so you could do several other mini quest like the dryads from irenicus dungeon, or the tradesmeet quests to get atleast a few levels befor hitting the asylum

[Sytze]

Tactic mod have a component that gives you the hardest fights in all places. I did planar sphere right after Chateau Irenicus and well, I had to run away from the Adamantine Golem, so to speak.

Same here. First time I did the skinner quest early and saw that Bone Golem show up, I reconsidered and thought it best to come back another day. The Temple Ruins, however, are really annoying. Those two Liches with company are often too hard a challange for my low level party.

@Saros: pretty much spot on, there.

[dragon wench]

I normally complete level one early in chapter two, because it's very useful to do so...
I complete the rest as soon as I'm able to leave Saradush, since I figure... may as well take advantage of some of the finds earlier, instead of later, while going through ToB.

On a related note, I have also discovered that you can use the storage containers and shelves on WK's first floor, and anything you place in them will appear in ToB. So, it's also handy to be able to use it for storage as well.

[Celacena]

In WK, if party is of high enough level, whlie resting on lvl 3 or 4, a group of Bone Fiends will spawn. These attack with cold damage and their attacks are considered normal weapons, and they are not undead nor golems. With that knowledge, whole groups of those can be eliminated. Considering the fact that each Bone Fiend is worth 22 000 xp, this is an experience mining.

I've not done that, but I had wraiths/shadows/shadowfiends appear on the machine level and the seal level - with a very high level cleric, they would wake you up and pooff! disappear at a few K a time.
bone fiends sound better for mining.

I had a way of xp mining in BG using the flesh golem cave - I'd oust members from the party but make them stand in a particular place, blocking the narrow entrances to the little room. I'd then get a long weapon, eg staff, spear or 2 handed sword and sleep. almost every time I'd get woken up by golems, my reach was longer than theirs and they could not get past the party members who were treated as neutral objects. I could get level after level with a bit of patience. xp mining is far harder is BG2 or rather has a lot more risks.