The Party Bioware Wanted Us To Play?

chaosjinni · Post by **chaosjinni** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:47 pm

Which NPC mix did Bioware intend for us to play through the game with?

If there isn't one, in your opinion what party do you think they used as the default for play-testing?

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:02 pm

I for one don't think that there was an intended party choice and I believe that they tested the game with every single party choice available as to test for bugs in banter and timing and other things.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:11 am

In order to create a backdrop for the main plot of Shadows of Amn, Bioware made a few (reasonable) assumptions about what took place in BG1 (the original game).

Your main character grew up in a little place called Candlekeep, along with Imoen. They are presumed to be best friends. Every NPC except Imoen will complain or leave the party if they disagree with your actions (that is, if your Reputation reaches an extreme that bothers them); but Imoen will stand by your character no matter what. She plays a major role in the plot of Shadows of Amn early in the game, so it is presumed that most players will keep her in their party.

Your main character was raised in Candlekeep by a powerful sage named Gorion. Early in BG1, Gorion told your character to seek the company of two of his old friends, Jaheira and her husband Khalid. Shadows of Amn makes the assumption that they joined your party in BG1 and have stayed with you ever since. Jaheira does not play a major role in BG2, but the dialogue reflects her (presumed) importance to your character. If she remains in your party, there will be a sub-plot involving her that lasts through most of the game.

Shadows of Amn also assumes that Minsc and his traveling companion, Dynaheir, came looking for your character in Amn when they heard that you had gone missing. At the very least, this means that the game assumes that you met them in BG1. Alternatively, it could mean that they were in your party the whole time in BG1.

Shadows of Amn does not give you any compelling reason to let Yoshimo into your party (other than the fact that he is available when you might need an additional character and he is a good Thief), but it is clear to me that the game designers favored him as a party member. He is more closely tied to the main plot in Shadows of Amn than any NPC besides Imoen. NOTE: DO NOT TRY TO FIND OUT ANY MORE ABOUT YOSHIMO OR YOU WILL LEARN THINGS YOU WISH YOU DIDN'T KNOW AHEAD OF TIME. It's unavoidable, since his part in the drama has been discussed by practically everyone who has ever played BG2.

For reasons you will soon discover, Khalid and Dynaheir will not be able to join your party in BG2. This leaves a "canonical" party consisting of the following characters:

PC (Player Character)
Imoen
Jaheira
Minsc
Yoshimo

For what it's worth, it's a very effective party in the long run.

The rest of the NPCs all have something to offer, but their desire to join your group is always based on something like, "I'd like to go adventuring with you," or, "I'd like to hire you for a job, and I'd like to be in your party, too," or, "I was sent to help you, so would you like to have me in your party?" In some cases, a particular NPC's presence might have a minor effect on the way a quest plays out, or they might have a special quest of their own, but such things have no effect on the main plot.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:52 pm

Von Dondu said it very, very well. Take his advice for a great game.

Add party member #6 to best suit your needs (do you need a Paladin, a Cleric, a Cleric/Mage? ect.).

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:23 pm

Psst... VonDondu is girl. :laugh:

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:30 pm

Alrighty, I didn't see gender in the post.

Take her advice for a great game.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:47 pm

Klorox wrote:Von Dondu said it very, very well.

I second that. Pay special attention to her "NOTE:" warning about Yoshimo.

Many times, I've heard that Imoen, Khalid & Jaheira, and Minsc & Dynaheir (& Boo) referred to as the "unofficial official" party of BG1, meaning the designers guessed that this was the most popular party composition used in BG1, and thus scripted the opening of BG2 with this in mind. I would agree with this, since this happened to be the party that I too used in BG1.

I would also agree that the designers didn't intend for a "default" BG2 party. Well, sort of...

I downloaded an inter-party banter document, which transcribes the random conversations that pop up throughout the game between each NPC. Besides being a good read because, sadly, there are many NPCs that I may never get around to adventuring with (and I appreciate them all), this document reveals some interesting things:

Some NPCs have more banter & comments than others. If you tallied lines of dialogue for each character from this document... well, the game's designers clearly gave Jaheira and others alot of attention, while some like Cernd seem like more of an afterthought, maybe stuck into the game 'cause we gotta have a single-class druid or whatever.

Rumor has it that, at some point during the game's development, Imoen's role in the story was changed by the developers: (minor spoiler)

Spoiler

She was supposed to be smoked by Irenicus early in the game, when you first emerge out into Waukeen's Promenade. This explains why she has zero inter-party banters: she wasn't meant to survive past Chapter 1. But during the game's development, Imoen-loving play-testers balked at this, so the designers gave her that Chapter 1 Invincibility Belt to keep her from getting smoked in Irenicus' dungeon (because her death would ruin the changed story), and made her rescue-able later in the game. But even though she has no inter-party banters, she seemed (to me) to have more comments to add to the events of the main storyline, because her story parallels your main character's story.

Other NPCs have alot to say with a particular other NPC. Aerie & Haer'Dalis, for example, have PAGES of random inter-party dialogue, especially if you romance Aerie. Keldorn has alot to say during Anomen's issues, Korgan opens up to Mazzy, etc.

The Point: some NPCs and party combinations will yield MANY more banters than others.

And certain NPCs will have to be present for certain quests to manifest. And certain NPCs will have comments to make during certain quests that they have a vested interest in, so the designers spent a little extra effort to reward players who allow the NPCs to follow their story. But for the most part, I believe the designers meant the game to be rich and colorful, no matter who you take with you.

(Just be sure it's not Cernd.)

chaosjinni · Post by **chaosjinni** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:30 pm

Von, thanks so much for your analysis. CFM: thanks for adding those extra insights.

Based on what you've posted, I'm rethinking the party roster. You've clarified things in a straightforward, neat presentation.

Kudos.

C-K'R[PhoEniX] · Post by **C-K'R[PhoEniX]** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:47 am

@CFM

I haven't ever played with Cernd, but since I haven't noticed any other characters to lack dialogues, maybe the reason behind this is that Cernd is simply not the talkative type. True Neutral druid is possibly supposed to be quiet.

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:54 am

Cernd is there in case you want druid, but can't tolerate Jaheira.

Jaheira seems intended as the one person who stays the whole time - apart from certain plot-driven interludes and keeping her sweet is a lot of effort. you have to sacrifice other relationships for her, which is annoying, but realistic.

Minsc is intended as light relief and Imoen as somebody you feel responsibility for, otherwise, the characters come and go.

the plot lines reward 'good' behaviour the most and so a neutral/good party is the closest to a natural, which is why I left out Edwin (also from BG1) so often, despite his top casting abilities.

Minsc, Jaheira, Imoen & Yoshimo leaves 1 space for other quest driven NPCs.

Jedi_Sauraus · Post by **Jedi_Sauraus** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:59 am

Playing the game, It's obvious to me that there is no "official" party, all the characters are extremely well written and made to interact with any other 4 NPC's withing the team.

In the opening dialogs I got the impression that though you helped minsc in BGI, he wansn't the a constant member of the team and followed the PC independantly due to his/her reputation. As for Jaheira, Bioware has made it clear that she accompanied the PC in BGI. Her personality however leaves ample room to ditch her for roleplaying reasons. I personally find her useful and like her intelligence, which shines through in nearly every interjection or dialog.

The only person really meant to be in the team is Imoen, since the main quest revolves around her, and bioware made it clear that both she and the PC travelled together since their depature from Candlekeep

Dummy · Post by **Dummy** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:45 am

but imoen is the only char with NO banters in BG SOA -.-

well of course bioware gives the player the possibility to change your team

but we wanted to find out which party, they thought was the most likely,
and i think its something like
PC, Minsc, Jaheira, Yoshimo/Imoen,

btw. my first party filled up with Arie and it was really okay

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:20 am

C-K'R[PhoEniX] wrote:I haven't ever played with Cernd, but since I haven't noticed any other characters to lack dialogues, maybe the reason behind this is that Cernd is simply not the talkative type.

He seems well-spoken when he does talk, but yeah, that reason is as good as any.

C-K'R[PhoEniX] wrote:True Neutral druid is possibly supposed to be quiet.

(All druids are True Neutral.)

I would respectfully disagree that Alignment + Class = Personality.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:25 am

Dummy wrote:but imoen is the only char with NO banters in BG SOA -.-

Not true.

At least in Irenicus Dungeon, Imoen has some banter. Not much, but at least some. I'm not sure if there was some more later in the game, but I recall there was.

Jedi_Sauraus · Post by **Jedi_Sauraus** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:29 pm

I still say there's no "most likely party" because it all depends on aligment. An evil PC may be motivated to kill Minsc on the spot and leave Jaheira rotting in her cell. The classical teams proposed here are assume that the PC has a good aligment. Assuming that I'd say the classical team would be Imoen, Minsc, Jaheira, and the PC. Even a good aligment does not mean a PC will automatically trust a random thief like Yoshimo. For a good PC the team mentioned above has been to hell and back and will not likely accept strangers without a good reason.

With this in mind I say that the last 2 slots are possibly intended for Mazzy, Keldorn, Cernd, Nalia, or Viconia. The first 4 accompany you on quests to destroy evil, and as for Viconia you save her from death and a good aligned PC might take her into the team to protect her. The people not intended for the last 2 slots of a good aligned team are the people who just say "hey I'd love to join your team for the hell of it" these are NPC's like Jan or Anomen

As for Imoen not having banters, she was supposed to be killed off by Irenicus. As a result of a last minute descision they decided against it, and changed the story such that Imoen could now be rescued from spellhold. Keeping that in mind, even though she dosn't talk much, it's obvious she is meant to be in the team.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:15 am

To support VonDondu's party, I've found a small bit of circumstantial evidence:

SPOILER WARNING!

I just completed ToB, and the only images of playable NPCs are of Minsc, Jaheira, Imoen, Yoshimo, and Sarevok.

END SPOILER

kinda neat, isn't it?

Dummy · Post by **Dummy** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:38 am

what do you mean by this ?

images of playable npcs ?

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:32 am

During the final movie, some images appear while the narrator is speaking. The only ones of playable NPCs are the people I've named above. I'm just about convinced these characters are "supposed" to be in your party.

As a matter of fact, I plan on using them on my next run-through. I just need to figure out what I'll play.

Jedi_Sauraus · Post by **Jedi_Sauraus** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:38 pm

How was Yoshi supposed to be part of the final group if he got killed off in spellhold, or if you didn't take him, the copper corronet ?? And what's this nonsense of Jan not being in the final group

:laugh:

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:29 am

Light Spoilers
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I second VonDondu, although you can't have Imoen and Yoshimo together, so the basic party would be:
PC
Jaheira
Minsc
Yoshimo/Imoen

You have 2 more place for the other NPC, but I would suggest Viconia or Aerie (the first comes from BG1 while the second is one of the first char you meet and both have a specific event that could be triggered in ToB, so probably were intended as obvious choice).
The new ToB NPC is probably going to be in the party from a RPG point of view IMO, so:

PC
Jaheira
Minsc
Yoshimo -> Imoen
Aerie or Viconia
ToB NPC